How long will this go on?

[Zulu]

1 hour ago, DanZemke said:

The link you cited was a republished opinion piece originally posted on May 15 in "The Doctor's Tablet Blog".
    http://blogs.einstein.yu.edu/human-challenge-studies-for-a-covid-19-vaccine-ethical-quandaries/
   
How about a link to an actual peer-reviewed academic journal article instead of opinion pieces?

Science and ethics aren't the same thing, so I have no problem with an ethics "opinion", especially this one:

The situation has all the earmarks of a quintessential ethical dilemma: Is it permissible to intentionally inflict serious harm on a few for a possible benefit to many? With several vaccines already in the pipeline, along with worries about a disproportionate number of minorities and poor people likely to enroll, I conclude that a rush to begin human challenge vaccine trials for a grave disease lacking an effective treatment is ethically unjustifiable.

 

1 hour ago, DanZemke said:

I've been accused multiple times in my life of being too rational. 

Your accusers may have been confusing condescension with intelligence.

 

1 hour ago, DanZemke said:

Suggestion: Post any closing thoughts you have, and let's move on.

Will you be volunteering for any of the Human Challenge Studies?

[Darryl&Rita]

Vaccine trials begin in Quebec. 

[Barbaraok]

1 hour ago, DanZemke said:

Suggestion: Post any closing thoughts you have, and let's move on.

There are other types of discussions going on in this thread.   If you feel uncomfortable being  in a discussion that involves both ethical and scientific considerations, by all means don’t read it.    Humanity has many, many times allowed expediency to overrule ethical discussions to the detriment of us all.   

[DanZemke]

7 minutes ago, Zulu said:

Your accusers may have been confusing condescension with intelligence.

Will you be volunteering for any of the Human Challenge Studies?

Adios

[Kirk W]

               First data for Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

[DanZemke]

9 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

If you feel uncomfortable being  in a discussion that involves both ethical and scientific considerations, by all means don’t read it.  

I did read it. I'm not uncomfortable reading ethical and scientific considerations.  I'm amazed that some folks are willing to endorse approaches, that by any reasonable metric, result in more deaths and misery.

[Darryl&Rita]

Walmart should be interesting on Monday.

[Zulu]

2 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

Walmart should be interesting on Monday.

Especially in Lake Havasu.

[Kirk W]

They also put that same information out via the  Sam's Club app.

[sandsys]

15 minutes ago, Darryl&Rita said:

Walmart should be interesting on Monday.

Now if Target would do that I would be happier. Walmart is much farther away from us.

 

[Zulu]

36 minutes ago, DanZemke said:

I'm amazed that some folks are willing to endorse approaches, that by any reasonable metric, result in more deaths and misery.

Maybe if there were adequate COVID-19 treatments, I could let my ethics slip, but currently there aren't any, so exposure to COVID-19 could mean an agonizing death for a Human Challenge Studies participant. ("Human Challenge Studies" reminds me of Vietnam-era military jargon like "ambient non-combatant personnel" = refugee.)

Through incompetence, stupidity, laziness, etc, the US has failed (and failing) to take the necessary steps to curb this virus. Now we want to take the expedient "warp speed" path which will probably involve killing people through multiple Human Challenge Studies. Nope. To me this is not a "reasonable metric".

Dan, here's the kicker -- just 50% of Americans plan to get the COVID-19 vaccine.

[Barbaraok]

2 hours ago, Zulu said:

Especially in Lake Havasu.

What can you expect from Chem Trail Kellie’s stomping ground.

1 hour ago, Zulu said:

Dan, here's the kicker -- just 50% of Americans plan to get the COVID-19 vaccine.

They say that now.  Once someone in their family dies, they will be protesting that it is taking too long for them to get a place in line!

[Dutch_12078]

Walmart, Target, and most other retail stores in our part of upstate NY have had mandatory mask and distancing rules in place since they've been allowed to reopen with very little complaint. One local mom & pop has a sign at the door informing customers they have the absolute right not to wear a mask and the store management has the absolute right to refuse them entry without one. They can't have one without the other...

[Kirk W]

Walmart, Kroger will start requiring customers in US stores to wear masks

[podwerkz]

I just stopped inhaling and its working great, so far.

 

 

[RV_]

My governor Polis here in Colorado has mandated masks in all indoor places starting today.

[rynosback]

12 minutes ago, RV_ said:

My governor Polis here in Colorado has mandated masks in all indoor places starting today.

There are a lot of people that do not no that. There was a small percentage at Wolly World that we’re wearing masks. There are some big retailers that just announced that this policy will start in two weeks. I guess they want another 250,000 people to get it and spread it before it takes effect. REALLY!!

[RV_]

Ryno, I agree. Walmart starts in three days. Saving lives causes Americans to behave like this in public? The people in this video that they are breathing on, well they think they can brace or assault them too because they were asleep when the constitution was taught. It chains the government not the people. You have free speech only on public property. Your right to speak is trumped by my right to set the rules on my private property. Store owners on their private property. Website privately owned property. The distinction is between the public domain, and the private domain.  Castle doctrine applies too among other precedents.

Watch this. The very people shouting down or attacking others verbally and physically are trying to play grade school bullies and then switch to victims. Passive/Aggressive or bipolar? Both? The guy looks like the typical gym rat illegal steroid user rage.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/07/15/walmart-masks-required-shoppers-sams-club-covid-19/5442415002/

The video above speaks for itself.

Further down in that article:

"If the American public were to embrace masking now, Dr. Robert Redfield, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said the pandemic could be brought to heel in less than two months.

"If we could get everybody to wear a mask right now, I really do think over the next 4-6-8 weeks, I really think we can bring this under control," he said in an interview Tuesday with the editor-in-chief of the Journal of the American Medical Association."

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by RV_

[Kirk W]

4 hours ago, RV_ said:

The very people shouting down or attacking others verbally and physically are trying to play grade school bullies and then switch to victims. Passive/Aggressive or bipolar? Both? The guy looks like the typical gym rat illegal steroid user rage.

i added some emphasis, but that is one great post and link! In many ways, you & I may be a lesson that a few of the members here need. A long time ago, we frequently found ourselves on different sides of many things we posted, but we found a way to just ignore the other's posts, rather than to start a public argument. Over the years since that happened, I have been quite surprised to discover that we probably agree more frequently than we disagree, even though our disagreements may involve strongly held opinions. I hope that you feel as good about that accomplishment as I. 

[bigjim]

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

i added some emphasis, but that is one great post and link! In many ways, you & I may be a lesson that a few of the members here need. A long time ago, we frequently found ourselves on different sides of many things we posted, but we found a way to just ignore the other's posts, rather than to start a public argument. Over the years since that happened, I have been quite surprised to discover that we probably agree more frequently than we disagree, even though our disagreements may involve strongly held opinions. I hope that you feel as good about that accomplishment as I. 

Yea thats because you both were able to agree that you both married UP to very patient women.🙂 

 

[Kirk W]

1 hour ago, bigjim said:

Yea thats because you both were able to agree that you both married UP to very patient women.🙂 

 

I am sure that there is some truth to that view!  😇

[Blues]

On 7/15/2020 at 1:19 PM, sandsys said:

Now if Target would do that I would be happier. Walmart is much farther away from us.

Target starts August 1.

 

19 hours ago, RV_ said:

My governor Polis here in Colorado has mandated masks in all indoor places starting today.

You can read the executive order here: 

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6990207-MASK-ORDER.html

Violators are subject to prosecution for trespass; trespassers can be removed from a premises.  If the location is a business licensee, the license is at risk if the business allows an unmasked person in.  That includes liquor licenses.

Of course, various law enforcement agencies (the usual suspects) are saying they're not going to answer calls for enforcement.

If nothing else, this gives cover for the business--hey man, not my rules but I have to follow them or lose my license.  Personally, I'd be happy to prohibit anyone not wearing a mask from coming into my business, mandate or not.  By refusing to help stop the spread, they're putting every business in danger of being shut down, prolonging everyone's agony, including their own.  I don't get that mindset at all. 

 

19 hours ago, rynosback said:

There are a lot of people that do not no that. There was a small percentage at Wolly World that we’re wearing masks. There are some big retailers that just announced that this policy will start in two weeks. I guess they want another 250,000 people to get it and spread it before it takes effect. REALLY!!

Target is August 1, but everybody else I read about (like Walmart, Home Depot, Kroger, Lowe's, Kohl's, Whole Foods) is next week.

Something interesting I heard the other day from a former director of CMS or CDC--I can't remember which--about the original advice not to wear a mask, which is used as proof that poor Dr. Fauci is wrong on everything. 

The standard line is that it was to keep the supplies for healthcare personnel.  Which is true, but not the whole story.  He said that viruses like SARS and MERS get more infectious as the disease advances, so it doesn't spread much until a person is sick, and gets more infectious as the person gets sicker.  It turns out that COVID is the exact opposite--its infectiousness goes down as the disease advances.  It's highly infectious before symptoms appear.

They didn't know that at the beginning, so they reasonably assumed it was like the viruses they've dealt with before.  Turns out it wasn't.  COVID is a tricky devil, and as Trevor Noah said, it's playing the long game.

[trailertraveler]

7 hours ago, Blues said:

...They didn't know that at the beginning, so they reasonably assumed it was like the viruses they've dealt with before.  Turns out it wasn't.   COVID is a tricky devil...

It is showing up as naturally acquired SARS-CoV-2 infections in domestic animals and farmed or captive wildlife.

[DanZemke]

Here are links to two fairly recent BBC articles about Covid-19 that I found interesting:

Coronavirus: Encouraging results in vaccine trials

Coronavirus: Human trial of new vaccine begins in UK

Quote

"The organisation 1 Day Sooner argues this should not be left to chance.

It is made up of more than 30,000 would-be volunteers in 140 countries who say they are prepared to take part in challenge studies."

1 Day Sooner

Edited July 18, 2020 by DanZemke
fixed bad link

[DanZemke]

On 7/15/2020 at 2:34 PM, Zulu said:

Will you be volunteering for any of the Human Challenge Studies?

No.  At 71 years old, I doubt 1 Day Sooner would accept me.  But over 32,000 people have volunteered.  And at least I did something - I donated $100 via PayPal.

Edited July 18, 2020 by DanZemke