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Magnum vs Victron inverters


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7 minutes ago, GlennWest said:

Several on here wire two inverters to separate legs. You telling me that will not supply 220.

That's right...…..In a 50 amp RV that uses two legs each of 120 VAC Line to Neutral many use two Inverters so each leg has 120 VAC to run say the front and rear AC's. HOWEVER unless they are designed synchronized and properly phased to be ran together to provide 240 VAC to run say a Mini Split  NOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU WILL NOT HAVE 240. As a matter of fact if they are both in the same phase L1 to L2 WOULD BE ZERO.

The way the utility or a genset or correct Inverter gets BOTH 120 and 240 is because when L1 is 120 + L2 is 120 - and its 240 top to bottom across L1 and L2. If you simply split L1 into two feed circuits sure each will provide 120 like front and rear AC BUT L1 to L2 is ZEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO   

In DC 120 + 120 in series equals 240

In AC 120/240 Single Phase Three Wire, be it a Genset or the Utility or a proper configured Inverter, its 120 L1 OR L2 to Neutral a nd 240 L1 to L2. HOWEVER if an RV park pedestal was wired to provide two legs of 120 it could  be configured incorrect in which case (same as if Inverters aren't configured correct for 120 PLUS 240)   L1 to L2 is NOT 120 + 120 BUT ZERO

AC IS NOT SAME AS DC  The Utility or a genset or an Inverter if wired right has a 240 Volt Line to Line output winding which is tapped in the center so its only 1/2 half that or 120 either side to the middle Neutral but line to line is 240.

NOTE if you use a Hybrid Pass Through Inverter it is synchronized with the shore power so its in phase with it.

Magnum or Victron can guide you through the correct units which can provide BOTH 120 as well as 240. However again DO NOT think the use of two Inverters that aren't designed to work and be synced and phased to provide 240 will do so PROBABLY NOT GONNA HAPPEN... 

Congrats on your system, you're asking good questions and I'm confident Magnum or Victron can supply you with what you need for BOTH 120 and 240 but its critical and much more complicated then simply two 120 volt units and expect 240 under the idea 120 + 120 = 240.....

Best wishes, God Bless and Happy Thanksgiving Glenn

John T  Live in the RV from Bastrop State Park Texas 

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Thanks John T. Have to admitt I don't understand. Have to take your word on this. Best of my knowledge Victron makes no mention of this. Will read all that again to be sure. I know Magnun is designed to provide 240v. Victron is a shade less money due to the remote is less. They offer a lot more also than Magnum. They also are 5k output. I really need to do a power audit in our coach. 

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On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 5:11 PM, GlennWest said:

https://shop.pkys.com/split-phase-inverter.html.   This answers the question

You did good Glenn the website you linked shows TWO WAYS to achieve 120 PLUS 240 which is what you need by properly syncing (As I indicated would be necessary) two Victron Inverters. HOWEVER their Plan B as shown (uses a 240 Volt Inverter plus a 120/240 autotransformer) is limited to the power that only one Inverter can supply while in their Plan A they use two Inverters to supply I would assume more power (subject to selected models)  !!! Some 50 amp RV users with two AC's when off line power one via one 3000 Watt Inverter L1 and the other via the other 3000 Watt Inverter L2 which is similar to when they're plugged to 50 Amp L1 & L2 shore power. Do you actually require MORE then 3000 watts per leg ???? If you balanced your loads their Plan A using two (say you selected a 3000 watt unit) Inverters will work and you don't need the Plan B Autotransformer. I think their Plan A with two (L1 & L2) 3000 Watt synced and correctly phased Inverters producing 120 and 240 per their drawing (for your mini split or 240 volt dryers or water heaters) would get you by just fine but I don't know your energy use so cant say for certain. An energy audit and price comparison is necessary to select if Plan A or B is best. One HUGE Inverter plus an autotransformer versus two smaller Inverters ??????????? 

Yep an energy audit would help you decide on what size of Inverters and battery and solar you need. A couple 3000 or so watt Inverters synced to achieve the 240 you need for your mini split is a lot of energy and would get manyyyyyyyyyyy people by unless they are energy hogs lol......…I'm only a small scale RV energy consumer but I like enough battery capacity to power my loads from 5 PM to 9 AM without drawing down more then say 30% to 50% (can go 80% or more with LiFePo) and enough solar capacity to achieve 100% SOC by late morning......... 

Now start thinking about Pass Through Hybrid units for when plugged to shore power and I'm NOT yet going to open the whole can of worms concerning safe and proper Neutral ground Bonding, Single point grounding, Separate Derived Sources, or Neutral ground bond switching relays used in Inverters wooooooo hoooooooooo 

I'm growing jealous of your system lol

Best wishes

John T

PS The above assumes the author of the 120 240 article is correct. In order to get the 240 he's talking about in Plan A the 120 Volt of Inverter A MUST BE 180 out of phase with Inverter B such that when one is 120 + the other is 120- so its 240 between the two WELL DUH...……….I cant know that from here, I'm  just saying...…..

 

Edited by oldjohnt
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6 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Shore power will be just for battery charging. I will run shore power directly to inverter ac input terminal. With my battery bank this should be doable. 

Probably workable Glenn, sounds okie dokie. Here's something to ponder:

 When plugged to shore power some of the Pass Through Hybrid Inverters will draw whatever energy is necessary to charge the batteries and then power up appliances primarily via the RV park pedestal so the Inverter portion (not 100% efficient) isn't having to operate very much. In addition, some have the option to limit the current that can be drawn from the utility (like 10 amps if you were plugged into a buddys 15 amp garage receptacle) and if you started an AC it would draw from battery and Inverter power so you don't trip his 15 amp breaker...…….   The idea and operation is to not use the battery and Inverter any more then necessary and use shore power to run everything plus keep the batteries topped off.

 Gee its fun spending YOUR money lol

John T

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On 11/24/2019 at 3:52 PM, GlennWest said:

On my full house battery system I'm building, guestion about these inverters. I had pretty much decided on Magnum but Victron Multi 5000 looks promising. I will, if Victron, run 2 with them powering each leg separately. If Magnum, they are hot L2 and L1, run in parrell. I have option with Magnum of adding a third of needed. If I go with Victron, do I loose that option? Do I need to parrell in pairs and run 4? 

You should go with Magnum. I run my home and shop all with my magnum inverter. Like this guy video, shared nice information regarding Magnum inverter. 

 

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43 minutes ago, frankgibbons said:

You should go with Magnum. I run my home and shop all with my magnum inverter. Like this guy video, shared nice information regarding Magnum inverter. 

 

They are both great inverters. Can't go wrong with either. Only thing that jumps out with my applicaton is it is standard 240v. But we found a simple way to do that with the Victron now. Also get 5k instead of 4400 for bout same price. I just need to do a power audit to be sure I don't need more. If I need more than 10k will go Magnum due to cost. Three units lot less than four. My highest use are my mini splits. Max output is 2800 watt. That is both at maximum output which is rare if ever. Even with SE Texas summer they mostly idle. Now heating the draw a lot more but we supplement that with furance. 

Edited by GlennWest
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Glenn, if indeed ???? (not saying don't know from here) you need to power TWO mini splits at same time which could use 2800 watts each, you obviously need AT LEAST 6000 watts of Inversion capacity which doesn't leave much wiggle room for other loads running at the same time.

  Iffffffffff indeed ??? that's the case you would need AT LEAST (A) A couple 3000 Watt 120 Volt Inverters (Synced and phased so L1 & L2 are 180 opposite and 240 is available)    orrrrrrrr          (B)   One single 6000 watt 120 Volt Inverter coupled with a 120/240 transformer      orrrrrrrrrrr   (C)  One single 6000 Watt 120/240 Volt Inverter to power BOTH 120 and 240 loads.

 I still don't know the energy storage capacity of your battery bank which needs to be known to compute how long you might power up two mini splits for X time. Regardless if your batteries are LiFePo4os or Lead Acid or AGM they do have an energy storage capacity rating and remember Energy is Volts X Amps (or Watts) X Time such as Watt Hours or Amp Hours etc NOT just Watts. Watts represents instantaneous Power while Watts X Time represents Energy such as Watt Hours the Utility charges you for.  

NOTE  DIVERSITY is another factor that can come into play when designing power distribution and that could (if applicable)  possibly lower the above rough approximations. 

You're getting there

John T

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Both mini splits is 2800 Max. Not each. Batteries are listed as 7kwh each or times 3 (21kwh) at 48v. 437 amp hours. But lithium doesn't lower voltage with discharge. Also came be pulled down far lower than lead acid.

Edited by GlennWest
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3 hours ago, GlennWest said:

Both mini splits is 2800 Max. Not each. Batteries are listed as 7kwh each or times 3 (21kwh) at 48v. 437 amp hours. But lithium doesn't lower voltage with discharge. Also came be pulled down far lower than lead acid.

Great, thanks for the updated info Glenn. Sooooooo since BOTH mini splits are 2800 Watts Max AND SUBJECT TO YOUR OTHER ENERGY DEMANDS (Need that energy audit) I would still think a minimum Inverter size "might" be around 5000 or so Watts.  If your energy audit confirms 5000 is plenty ?????? (I cant say from here) it may  be easier and cheaper to go with a SINGLE UNIT 5KW or larger if needed that offers 120 as well as 240 volts and no additional transformer is required......….

You're absolutely correct, voltage drop versus SOC is less on Lithium then lead acid and you can discharge Lithium deeper then Lead acid. However my own personal preference would be still not to discharge over 80% before recharging.

John t

   

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Got a watt meter from Harbor freight today. Well, my Bunn cofee maker seems to pull constant 31 watts to keep unit water hot,. I could put a timer on it to stop that. My microwave is a 850 watt unit. DW has a total of 4 air purifiers in here. One is 44 watts, other 3 are 53 watts each. My chromebook is 4.5 watts. DW has a Paula Deen air fryer, 1700 watt. Mini splits are max of 2800. So constantly usage usage around 3000. Add in Microwave 3900. Air fryer 5600. My meter won't fit at washer and dryer location. Washing machine is a newer inverter unit. Dryer is whirlpool 110v. My lights are all led and they are DC anyway. Now the washer and dryer run a lot due to my job. TV and Roko runs all day. Haven't checked it yet but all fairly new. So my thoughts are 2 4400 Magnums would be enough. Or two 5k Victrons. Price is a wash. Now the Magnums are a lot smaller footprint. This might be deciding point. 

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