Purchasing Firearms in South Dakota PMB Issue

[Twotoes]

Before I retired I worked part time out of my home. I had a P.O. Box at the post office as my address because I didn’t want clients to know where I lived. All my mail, business, utilities, insurance and junk mail went to my P.O. Box. This was many years ago however. Now I use the Escapees South Dakota address. The only problem I ever had was trying to buy a firearm at the Rapid City Cabellas and Shields. I was able to complete my purchase at a Mom and Pop gun store. 

[Pappy Yokum]

On 6/1/2020 at 12:41 PM, "Tahoe" Pat Riott said:

Thanks everyone for chiming in and giving a good background on the issue.  We too are AB 'residents' trying to purchase a firearm and a CCW and have been told by Sheriffs Office of Pennington Co and by AB that the PMB we were forced to get on the Drivers License will suffice for the CCW but not purchase of a firearm at Cabelas, etc.  Whether or not the smaller dealers in the area 'sign off' on the PMB ID - the larger issue is: as an American citizen, fully entitled to purchase a legal firearm, subject to a complete background check - HOW CAN I BE PREVENTED FROM PURCHASING A FIREARM BECAUSE I TRAVEL IN A MOTORHOME AND NOT LIVING IN A HOUSE????

 

Another "one post wonder" - SPAMer - TROLLer - opportunist - one post to an OLD outdated subject !!

 

.

[Carlos]

3 hours ago, pjstough said:

"Keeping and bearing" is not the same as owning, buying, selling, trading or giving away.

Keeping and bearing is exactly the very definition of owning.  The other three are different, required components of bearing.

 

[Acelead]

Hey everyone, if it's not apparent I am the OP (original poster) for this thread.

I want to first say thank you so much to everyone (including the negative people) who take the time out of their busy day to reply. 

Although I am busy and unable to reply to each comment, I still monitor this thread and every reply to it.  I'm taking detailed notes and am hoping to find a solution to this problem.  I've been talking to multiple individuals in various organizations in Rapid and around the country.  I hope to have something soon (see below for the update on how I'm purchasing firearms).

One of the reason I'm replying now is I REALLY don't want this thread to dissolve into anti and pro 2nd amendment arguments.

We are a community of nomads which by its very nature means we are all a little different.  We all "buck" the system in varying degrees but we all came here because of that little nagging thought in the back of our minds, that told us there was something better then the "9-5" one location lifestyle the "normies" are stuck with.  That means no matter how much we may disagree with each other, we are one big family.

So although I'm sure we all feel VERY strongly on this topic, I really want to keep this thread clean and only discuss ways to legally purchase firearms.  I want this to be a helpful guide for future RVers if they feel the need to use it.

So with that being said, even months or years from now, if you feel you have something helpful to add to this thread PLEASE do so.  I and many others will be monitoring it closely.

With that out of the way....here is my most recent update on purchasing a firearm.

I completely gave up on the corporate "big chain" stores and even gave up on Rapid itself, as apparently the ATF is watching the primary cities closely.

Instead I went out to a smaller town in the outskirts of South Dakota (exactly where and which one I will obviously not mention here). 

I have since been able to make multiple purchases and transfers successfully with no issues whatsoever, JUST using my state issued ID WITH the PMB on it.

So as of now, avoid any gun stores in Rapid and go for the small mom and pop locations elsewhere in SD....and you should be fine.

Now for the bad news.......

I have STILL not been able to get a CCW.

I went into the office in Rapid but the lovely (not sarcastically) woman behind the counter told me I needed to have a land deed or rental agreement as proof of my "physical" location.

I am currently working on renting a single room for a reasonable rate from someone in South Dakota to use as proof of location, at which point I will try again.

I will update accordingly once that happens.

Best of luck to everyone!

[pjstough]

14 minutes ago, Carlos said:

Keeping and bearing is exactly the very definition of owning.  The other three are different, required components of bearing.

 

Not so.  When in the military(such as a well regulated militia) you can "keep and bear arms", but you dont own the "arms" you are "keeping and bearing", and you are not allowed to sell, trade, or give away these "arms."

[Randyretired]

I was able to add CCW in Utah and AZ without being residents of those states.

[cactus]

50 minutes ago, Carlos said:

Keeping and bearing is exactly the very definition of owning.  The other three are different, required components of bearing.

 

Could not agree more

Regardless of the anti-gunners

[pjstough]

2 minutes ago, cactus said:

Could not agree more

Regardless of the anti-gunners

So why do you believe that the writers of the 2nd use the terms, "keep and bear", and didnt use the terms, buy, sell, trade or give away?

[Carlos]

2 minutes ago, pjstough said:

So why do you believe that the writers of the 2nd use the terms, "keep and bear", and didnt use the terms, buy, sell, trade or give away?

Because they incorrectly assumed that every rational and intelligent person would know that buying and selling are an intrinsic part of "keeping" which is also a component of "bearing."  Nobody had any idea at that time what contortions anti-gunners would make of plain and simple language.

[pjstough]

Just now, Carlos said:

Because they incorrectly assumed that every rational and intelligent person would know that buying and selling are an intrinsic part of "keeping" which is also a component of "bearing."  Nobody had any idea at that time what contortions anti-gunners would make of plain and simple language.

Not true. As I said before "keep and bear arms" describes exactly the way it is in the military.

[Carlos]

The military has nothing to do with this, and you know it.  There's no right to keep and bear in the military, and nothing about the second amendment has anything to do with the military.  But you know that.

 

[pjstough]

Just now, Carlos said:

The military has nothing to do with this, and you know it.  There's no right to keep and bear in the military, and nothing about the second amendment has anything to do with the military.  But you know that.

 

Oh, what does the first part of the 2nd say?  There is a right to keep and bear arms in the military.

[Randyretired]

4 hours ago, pjstough said:

"Keeping and bearing" is not the same as owning, buying, selling, trading or giving away.

If you are confident in this try taking it to the courts.  In the mean time can we honor the request of the OP to not argue the 2nd amendment here.

[Acelead]

Hey everyone, another important update.

As mentioned previously, I am having success legally buying weapons through "mom and pop" shops (translation: small gun stores more then 5 miles away from major cities).

I have had no issue using my PMB license with my South Dakota Escapees address on it.

NOW for the important part......

I have had multiple members message me privately asking which shop(s) I purchase weapons from and I want to be clear, I will never disclose this and neither should you!!

Here's why...

One of the biggest surprises in this entire process was learning how many people in both the government in Rapid, the ATF and even on this forum are "anti-gun".

I have heard stories of these private party individuals and ATF employees using "sneaky" methods to seek out and find shops that don't follow the ATF requirements of a physical address.

Why do you think the major chain stores in Rapid and other cities are running scared on this?  There is major political pull behind these types of moves and even a few general answers to innocent questions can cause people to lose their businesses (or worse!).

Therefor I HIGHLY advise anyone who has success with a gun store using your PMB ID to carefully guard which specific store that is.

NOW for the good news for those of you wondering which store....

I have had success at pretty much every mom and pop gun store I've tried that is at which has been at least 5 miles outside of a major population center.  The ATF stays fairly close to the large population centers and concentrates its efforts on primarily chain stores....so use Google Maps and pay attention to distances and you should be good at whatever shop you try.

The worst case, you try to purchase a item and get told you need to use a physical address, just politely move on and try another shop.

There is nothing wrong or illegal about purchasing a firearm with a PMB drivers license.  You won't go to jail and there is no fine.  The very worst thing they can say is we can't make this sale and that is their right as a business entity in a capitalist society. 

Be polite, don't argue and move onto the next shop. I'm sure within 2-3 shops you will find one that will complete the transaction.

[Vladimir]

I just have a couple of questions....

I have lived in several towns where there was NO MAIL delivery to residences.  You had to have a Post Office Box.  Is that different than a mail forwarding service??

In those days, I had no physical address.  I suspect with 911 service these days most counties have established “addresses” even though mail is not delivered there??  So the address is sufficient??

In the near future,  I might shift my mail again to a Post Office Box for a host of reasons.  Does that mean I lose the right to purchase a firearm??

For a few years, my mailing address was actually a Federal agency....the Forest Service.  The mail went to their office and then was delivered by the Forest Service to my location.  I am not sure if the Forest Service does this today.....but how does that work??

On the side.....I had a official government passport, boy did that help getting a personal passport!!  I wonder if I used a government agency as my address if that would speed my “permit”.

 

[Randyretired]

When we had a PO Box we also had a physical address.  It was needed before USPS would rent us a box.  At our mountain property before we could get a well permit, septic permit, or even satelite internet we had to have an address.  Applying for an address was simple and without cost.  It did take a couple of weeks longer than they said but we have an address.  Also when we had a PO Box we had to give the DMV our mailing address and a physical address.

[sandsys]

2 hours ago, Vladimir said:

I suspect with 911 service these days most counties have established “addresses” even though mail is not delivered there??

For years my dad's mail address was a RR Box # and mail was delivered to a box out on that road. When 911 came into being their street was given a name for the first time which changed their mailing address. They lived on a dead end road only three houses long so the mail carrier actually used their driveway in which to wye his truck now that he couldn't just pull up to the boxes out on the through road.

[Kirk W]

10 hours ago, Vladimir said:

I suspect with 911 service these days most counties have established “addresses” even though mail is not delivered there??

There are large areas of undeveloped land in most states that do not have any 911 address or any other kind of address. Only residences or businesses are normally given an address. Consider what happens when a developer buys a large section of land and then subdivides it, puts in streets & utilities and begins to sell homes there. You have a single plot of land of several acres to perhaps as much as several hundred acres that changes from what may have had 1 address, if any at all to dozens of homes, each with an individual address. Part of the opening a new development is the filing of a plat plan which must first be approved by local government and then an address must be assigned to each home site. It is no different when any undeveloped land that has never had any type of business or residence is made into a home. There is also a process in most areas to reverse that system. While I do not know how it works, the farm country where I grew up is going in the other direction. The 2 mile stretch of road where I lived had 9 homes when my father was growing up, 5 homes when I was growing up, and there are presently only 2 homes along that entire stretch today as farms have increased in size. The entire home site where I grew up is gone with the house moved to town and all buildings are gone. What was our driveway is no longer maintained with a fence across it and no entry to the property that is farmed as one continuous field for more that 1/2 mile. I highly doubt that our address still exists. 

[Randyretired]

2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

There are large areas of undeveloped land in most states that do not have any 911 address or any other kind of address. Only residences or businesses are normally given an address. Consider what happens when a developer buys a large section of land and then subdivides it, puts in streets & utilities and begins to sell homes there. You have a single plot of land of several acres to perhaps as much as several hundred acres that changes from what may have had 1 address, if any at all to dozens of homes, each with an individual address. Part of the opening a new development is the filing of a plat plan which must first be approved by local government and then an address must be assigned to each home site. It is no different when any undeveloped land that has never had any type of business or residence is made into a home. There is also a process in most areas to reverse that system. While I do not know how it works, the farm country where I grew up is going in the other direction. The 2 mile stretch of road where I lived had 9 homes when my father was growing up, 5 homes when I was growing up, and there are presently only 2 homes along that entire stretch today as farms have increased in size. The entire home site where I grew up is gone with the house moved to town and all buildings are gone. What was our driveway is no longer maintained with a fence across it and no entry to the property that is farmed as one continuous field for more that 1/2 mile. I highly doubt that our address still exists. 

We have 140 acres of mountain land consisting of 4 thirty five acre lots.  Only the one that we are improving has an address assigned, but the entire parcel is identified by that address for simplicity.  Another thing about addresses is how they change as development continues.  To try to keep some continuity our county trys to keep addresses as originally assigned as much as possible.  This leads to some confusing numbers.  Our home was the first one in this local area and at the time our access was off one road through an easement.  Today there are new paved roads to our property lines but our address is still designated off the original road.  In any case in our county and I believe the entire state an address is required  anytime there are improvements.  Any land parcel owner can request an address from the county for that parcel so obtaining an address is a simple administrative function. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Randyretired

[mptjelgin]

We lived on some rural acreage east of Austin, Texas. In the 30+ years we lived their we had three different Rural Route addresses, and then finally a 911 street address as that system came into being. I believe that all residences in Texas, no matter how rural are assigned a 911 street address. 

[Carlos]

I run a small phone company, and I personally wrote our 911 processing software.  Nearly every place in the country can have an "address" assigned to it, and it just helps to think about how first responders may get to you.  It can get complicated.  An acre parcel is easy to address, a house on 60 acres in the middle, can be harder.  Rural residents are encouraged to buy "911 address" signs so that responders can find that, and it provides directions (Southwest 1.2 miles to residence).

https://www.collincountytx.gov/gis_rural_addressing/Documents/Display.pdf

Cellular 911 is getting better and better, so if you have service, that could be the best bet.  Note that you can do a 911 test call.  Dial 911 and say "this is not an emergency, this is a test, is this a good time for it?"  If they say no, hang up.  If they say yes they will read back to you your location and info on their system.

Here's an instance of one of our semi-rural addresses (details changed to protect privacy, you can't actually look it up):

307 E, AZ-68 F, Payson, AZ 85541

[Kirk W]

7 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

I believe that all residences in Texas, no matter how rural are assigned a 911 street address. 

I am sure that you are correct or at least that is the intention of the program. But that when an acreage is subdivided it creates the need for new addresses to be created. Thus the need for the filing of a plat plan when making a new development. 

[GarBren]

Acelead, 

My husband and I are currently trying to purchase in Sioux Falls with no luck.  ATF has threatened to shut down dealers that sell to individuals with a PMB.  Thanks for the heads up about trying smaller towns.  We will give that a try.  We were throwing around ideas between ourselves about purchasing a plot of land for the purposes of having a permanent address and selling off small sections to others trying to accomplish the same goals.  Not sure how that would all be done, but it was a starting thought.

I actually called and spoke with the local ATF agent and he advised me to purchase a piece of property.  

I have another plan I am going to give a try first.  If successful, I will share.

Thanks for the time and effort you are putting into this.  It is an issue that the federal government needs to straighten out.

[AZ Nomad]

Has anyone succeeded in obtaining a Gold or Enhanced CCW permit and then attempted to purchase a firearm at Cabela’s with a PMB address?   Once they no longer need to run an ATF check, does Cabela’s care about your address?   It seems like they can no longer make the argument that the ATF will crack down on them, since the ATF will have already approved any firearm purchase for me.  My local sheriff’s office has accepted my Enhanced CCW permit application despite having a PMB.  Assuming it goes through, I can test it out myself in 4-6 weeks.

Mom & Pop stores are great and I’d rather do business with them, but Cabela’s is the only store I can find that has the the specific gun I’m looking for, and smaller stores are telling me new orders are taking 6 months to fill.

Edited November 13, 2021 by AZ Nomad

[D Brick]

Last year, October 2022, I used my SD driver license with PMB address to purchase a 9mm at Fleet Farm in Rapid, no problem only waited less than 15 minutes for the thumbs up to make the purchase.  This last Wednesday, April 19, 2023, I tried a small mom and pop shop in the town in South Dakota that I live in and just found out today, Saturday April 22nd, that I was denied.  Not sure why and they were not able to get me the ATF number to call to find out why the denial.  The only thing I can think of is I remember the guy at Fleet Farm in Rapid saying the PMB ID was ok but to make sure I file in a part of the computer application a certain way and at the mom and pop place it was a paper and ink application.

Does anyone have an idea about about computer vs. paper and ink application in regards to applicants that have PMB on their license/ID?  I haven't become a felon since last year and I hold a professional medical license in this state of South Dakota so kinda confused why this happened and pissed because small towns talk A LOT!!  Thanks in advance!