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13speed

Ordering a new Volvo and could use some opinions

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1 hour ago, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

The issue isn't removing or re-installing the items, the issue is what happens to the brand new warranty if this takes place.  Will Volvo stand behind a warranty on component areas that have been taken apart and reassembled?

So would you willingly void a 3yr 500,000-mile warranty for a hitch in the prime location?

Exactly, so why dismantle?  Just re-engineer the ET mounting plate/angles!

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It is not only getting the hitch between the rails as there is the fact that the hitch needs to be mounted between the spring hangers requiring removing and replacing some of the bolts. 

I do not have the capability to re-engineer the hitch mount so I have to work with what I have. I do not believe there would be as much as everyone is thinking to have to be removed. If the angles were taken off it might slide in relatively smoothly. It would still help to have it be a bit narrower and I will talk more with Henry about that.

I just do not think I would loose warranty on the entire truck for replacing some frame bolts. Obviously they would not cover those bolts or something damaged by those bolts. But who knows. I just need to get a hitch that will work in the truck to pull the trailer without harming it and I would rather not be 70+ feet long doing it. 

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13 ,

Wow-u-bee-da--man........this thread is better than the Eneregizer-Bunny.......it just goes on and on and,,,,,,,,,,on......

OK, let help you focus out here a minute.....

First, sometimes you wake up from a dream and you WAS a "lowly-truck-driver" before the dream and now you ARE ....CHIEF-ENGINEER.........You see most "Chief--Engineers" forgot almost anything about engineering a long time ago........No, a "Chief-Engineer" is a "has-been-engineer" that is supposed to make a herd of other engineers do something that hopefully makes sense and $$$ someday.......HOPEFULLY.......Now staff engineers number 1 job is to make the "chief-engineer's" job HELL, and make him pull his hair out.........(are you bald yet 13 ?)

Think about you have been not hitting the ball out of the park with a bunch of engineers  at ET, Volvo, NH,(even Kenworth, and heck you ain't even buying a Kwooper) ........ya know from where I stand you might be the Rodney Dangerfield of Chief Engineers........

Story:  For some reason I often have been honored to hang out with some legendary folks in aerospace  over then span of too many decades ......One time a outfit in Seattle that coobles together big airplanes got their "breast pinched in the ringer" on a new airplane program and about 25,000 engineers were not playing together on the new airplane project so..........the board decided to drag back out of retirement THE old Chief Engineer to save the program AND save the company.......

The OLD Chief Engineer had retired back to his old family farm on the East coast but "The-Company" kept his Seattle home on Lake Washington in good shape and paid the lights and water and landscaper........so me being a begger-pilot, the Chief Engineer  gave me a key and I would keep the fridge stocked in prune juice for my "rent".

So one evening the front door opens and in shuffles the Chief-Engineer and so I threw another Salmon steak on the Jen-Air and we went out to the covered deck and watched the rain fill up Lake Washington.........Finally I broke the silence and ask, John, how in the heck are you going to fix this program? John smiled and took a swig of prune juice and said "oh heck  kid it's so simple being the OLD Chief-Engineer it's a lot like being on Death-Row........you see I don't have anything to lose since I won't have a job when I fix this program and even the ALL the Sr-engineer's down to the lowest engineer knows that I have career--ending-powers.......so all I have to do is go around with a scrap of paper and make a list of the .........."Can't-be-done" items and then turn them into ........"Done" items........so simple"..........(and John did herd the engineers into turning the 'Can't(s) into the "Done" and the program and the company was saved) so.......simple......."Done"

13.... so far you got a list of "can't(s)" .....all you gotta do is get the "team" on the same page........good luck sometimes herding engineers are like herding chickens........

( I .....would talk to Volvo.......WELL BEFORE I hacked up some hucks ....and bolts on the new truck).

 

Drive on..........(Darn engineers and........ Chickens)

 

 

 

Edited by Dollytrolley

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You are supposed to put equipment on trucks and do work with them.  Unless the workmanship is negligent i.e. not in accordance with Volvo's "body builder guidelines" warranty should not be affected. 

Your Volvo dealer should be your source of knowledge before you order, not interweb experts like me who have had nothing to do with Volvo trucks since I hit my head on that baggage door that hinges at the top... :huh::mellow:

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Dolly, I love that story about the Chief Engineer and the Sr. Engineers and "lesser" folks getting all in a funk because their shorts were twisted. The "career ending" events and situations play such a huge "consideration" in large organizations that often they get frozen in place and can't move forward.

My situation was similar but somewhat different, I ended up in huge outfit for a bit after RUNNING A BUNCH OF SMALL COMPANIES. Upon my arrivial on the project, overheard a Project Manager talking to his "second" (through an open door), "I heard he's really good but a real pain in the ass to work with". Turned around on my heal and walked back with a thought, "that is exactly what I want them to know me as". Criticizing bad work or plain screw-ups in engineering meetings in big companies is a no-no because you have to be political and folks can get away with bad stuff, for a while at least. In small companies bad stuff is a death knell which comes pretty quickly. So in this big outfit I operated on the basis, ''your career ending BS ain't gonna be my career ending BS", hence the reputation. My lack of fear was puzzling to the long timers, they didn't understand that being a contract engineer I was not operating on the basis of "being there forever", but doing the best work in the best environment (for myself) while my contract lasted and that I was OK with that (or the end).

Back to the "regular program", it is not necessary to screw around with huck bolts to install an ET where it belongs (or not belongs). In this install there were four huckbolts in the area where the ET was going

TIybwBnl.jpg

Made a cardboard pattern of where they were,

OZgZfF7l.jpg

Drilled clearance holes for the hucks in the tube mounting supporting and spacing off the ET

CofQG5Ol.jpg

Life was good and the huck bolts remained in place and "happy".

ZWMY3GKl.jpg

In this installation there was only one huck that was a problem, the bottom one holding the shock bracket.

HdcSjvil.jpg

Clearance hole was drilled in the angles supporting the ET to let the huck protrude through it. ET installed, life was good.

wLifgkxl.jpg

 

.

Edited by phoenix2013

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2 hours ago, phoenix2013 said:

Dolly, I love that story about the Chief Engineer and the Sr. Engineers and "lesser" folks getting all in a funk because their shorts were twisted. The "career ending" events and situations play such a huge "consideration" in large organizations that often they get frozen in place and can't move forward.

My situation was similar but somewhat different, I ended up in huge outfit for a bit after RUNNING A BUNCH OF SMALL COMPANIES. Upon my arrivial on the project, overheard a Project Manager talking to his "second" (through an open door), "I heard he's really good but a real pain in the ass to work with". Turned around on my heal and walked back with a thought, "that is exactly what I want them to know me as". Criticizing bad work or plain screw-ups in engineering meetings in big companies is a no-no because you have to be political and folks can get away with bad stuff, for a while at least. In small companies bad stuff is a death knell which comes pretty quickly. So in this big outfit I operated on the basis, ''your career ending BS ain't gonna be my career ending BS", hence the reputation. My lack of fear was puzzling to the long timers, they didn't understand that being a contract engineer I was not operating on the basis of "being there forever", but doing the best work in the best environment (for myself) while my contract lasted and that I was OK with that (or the end).

Back to the "regular program", it is not necessary to screw around with huck bolts to install an ET where it belongs (or not belongs). In this install there were four huckbolts in the area where the ET was going

TIybwBnl.jpg

Made a cardboard pattern of where they were,

OZgZfF7l.jpg

Drilled clearance holes for the hucks in the tube mounting supporting and spacing off the ET

CofQG5Ol.jpg

Life was good and the huck bolts remained in place and "happy".

ZWMY3GKl.jpg

In this installation there was only one huck that was a problem, the bottom one holding the shock bracket.

HdcSjvil.jpg

Clearance hole was drilled in the angles supporting the ET to let the huck protrude through it. ET installed, life was good.

wLifgkxl.jpg

 

.

There ya go 13.......The CHIEF-ET has gone thru the steps of getting your hitch "DONE".

Now question will be........What size sq tube? ??? Easy.....sq tube is measured by two dimensions ....outside & Wall thickness.....so measure how much your hitch plate needs to sit above the the bottom frame flange and that is the size tube yoou need.....next go to the steel yard and get that tube in a .375" wall thickness that will be plenty of overkill and about as much as you want to drill holes through.   

See this engineering thing is ......Ea$ y.....

Any half decent hillbilly trailer hitch shop should be able to cobble this together and Volvo god will likely smile that the hucks are virgin.......

 

Drive on...........(Henry is......nice old goat engineer (Engineer-Topgrade (ET)))

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Dolly, an old goat, he. but you have to admit that the images are remarkably alike.

oQWOejPl.jpg

N3rCL3Zl.jpg

If you employ your remarkably sharp eyes you might notice that the old suspension system for the ET ( 4 x 4 x 1/4 wall) tubing, has been replaced in the latest installation with 4 x 4 x 1/2 angle. Eliminated need for blowing access holes for sockets to get to the bolts and made things easier to install all around. Getting around the huck bolts is also easier.

Georgia Hybrid had the best idea using 4 x 6, or 4 x 8 angles combined with a narrower mounting plate. As you might have figured out from my above "postulating" picture and porker embrace, I have it all figured out but it means custom angles, custom plate, custom installation, $ catching, $ catching, $ catching. You and I worked in "expensive" industries, anything can be done if $ catching is not an issue.

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If you look at the truck with the red ET in Henry's images, you would be able to install the ET 18" ahead of the drive axle wheelbase if you make the ET mount the suspension crossmember with engineering, steel, weldage, holes, bolts, beer, etc.

 

A note on fasteners - Kenworth trucks are standard with 16mm frame bolts installed in 17mm holes to allow the frame to flex. Huck bolts where not a pain in the a$$ (Scrap - I'm not sure that is the correct wording of the option :)) are an option, but not required by Kenworth.  KW suspensions do distribute weight to the frame differently than most, and don't jack up and down as power is put to the ground under the drive tires... 3 piece crossmembers are now optional on 680/880 :huh: . One piece cutting torch removeable are standard :D.  You are not going to crack one in RV service anyways. Custom frame drilling is available at order. The truck arrives with 16mm bolts in the customer holes, which you remove and bolt up your stuff. 

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Looking at the red hitch, could a guy order tall enough rails that you slide it in on the flat plate just below the upper flange but still above the xmembers?

So you'd order it with the correct clear space to set it in, the custom 17.2 holes for the angles, addtl air accessory solenoid to back of sleeper, square end of frame, and a 11" or 11.5" frame?  You mount your angles to frame, then grab the hitch with the crane, slide it and its plate all the way in just below the upper rail flange but above the xmembers, then set it on your angles and bolt it down?

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LOL I think that really is the name of that option.  On Georgia's truck I tried the whole custom frame with holes, body mounts, even a drop towing EOF, and with a dxf to know where it is all at.  But it kind of overwhelmed his body builder a bit.  So it all came off but the clear spaces.  I forgot about the bolted KW xmember option on his truck.....poor guys riding around with some Peterbilt underneath! :o

Thinking about the truck at hand a little more, I bet a couple of the spring hanger bolts have to come off to install the fenders anyway?  Or can you order it with a set of factory quarter fenders that use the same mounting as the front of a full set?

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5 hours ago, phoenix2013 said:

Dolly, an old goat, he. but you have to admit that the images are remarkably alike.

oQWOejPl.jpg

N3rCL3Zl.jpg

If you employ your remarkably sharp eyes you might notice that the old suspension system for the ET ( 4 x 4 x 1/4 wall) tubing, has been replaced in the latest installation with 4 x 4 x 1/2 angle. Eliminated need for blowing access holes for sockets to get to the bolts and made things easier to install all around. Getting around the huck bolts is also easier.

Georgia Hybrid had the best idea using 4 x 6, or 4 x 8 angles combined with a narrower mounting plate. As you might have figured out from my above "postulating" picture and porker embrace, I have it all figured out but it means custom angles, custom plate, custom installation, $ catching, $ catching, $ catching. You and I worked in "expensive" industries, anything can be done if $ catching is not an issue.

Hay....ole-goat .....this is really a case where the Dollymoma is so correct........I once had to give a talk to room full of Phd's and I joked that if they had any idea of how bad my upper-ed credentials were they would roll on the floor wetting their pants.......Dollymoma said "just wear your glasses even though you only use them to read with ......they are used to smart folks that wear glasses and..........with your readers on they will appear so blurred that you won't see them smirking.........

See Henry you ain't the only old goat that don't get no respect..........(great glasses .....do they have them at WalMart?)...

 

Drive on..........(It's OK to be a old goat......just don't eat like one)

 

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Walmart indeed, The original from the engineering days were stupidly expensive. Then I started building ETs, glasses doubled up as safety glasses, for drilling, pounding, grinding, painting, etc. This routine requires weekly session of toothpaste and tooth brush on the lenses to bring them back from opaque to transparent again. They last approximately a year which dovetails with the visit to optometrist and a new set of corrective lenses. And the cycle repeats itself.

I know these look goofy and geeky because of their oversize nature, but they serve two functions very well. Great face shields particularly when grinding and painting and don't require much head moving (only eyeballs)  in all directions to get the corrected vision.

Needless to say the expensive frames went bye-bye long time ago, Walmart is my hero, do you know you can find a passable quality frames in there starting at $18 bucks. And the bifocals and trifocals come to all shops from the same optical lens sweat shops anyway.

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5 hours ago, Scrap said:

LOL I think that really is the name of that option.  On Georgia's truck I tried the whole custom frame with holes, body mounts, even a drop towing EOF, and with a dxf to know where it is all at.  But it kind of overwhelmed his body builder a bit.  So it all came off but the clear spaces.  I forgot about the bolted KW xmember option on his truck.....poor guys riding around with some Peterbilt underneath! :o

Thinking about the truck at hand a little more, I bet a couple of the spring hanger bolts have to come off to install the fenders anyway?  Or can you order it with a set of factory quarter fenders that use the same mounting as the front of a full set?

OK, what are the part numbers for the good stuff? You know I have a blue tip wrench and a passion for keeping those lowly Pete parts off of my truck. I mean what's next? International parts on it somewhere?

Still wish we could have went with the custom body mounts and frame drilling but they had never even seen a KW before mine hit their shop. You threw them a loop with the harness extension and swapping the commercial plugs to RV style wiring pinouts much less trying ot figure out where everything went before they started on it.

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Found an ADZ truck, which is what a single axle/hi-torque truck would have.  Using the tall rails (but forgetting the inner two rails and the 3x extra xmembers on this one) there's got to be 1/2"-5/8" of room to slide her all the way in under the upper flange?

20170528_204638_zpsvrxsgvcv.jpg

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On 5/28/2017 at 5:17 AM, rickeieio said:

Sooooo, what motors does KW offer?;)

rick - I am no longer day to day in the truck business so this info can be wrong - but it looks like Paccar and Cummins engines, EPA2017. 

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23 hours ago, noteven said:

rick - I am no longer day to day in the truck business so this info can be wrong - but it looks like Paccar and Cummins engines, EPA2017. 

Fore some reason, I'm thinking the Paccar engine is an International descendant?

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54 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Fore some reason, I'm thinking the Paccar engine is an International descendant?

Not hardly, they were developed in Europe by DAF which is also part of Paccar.

International managed to screw up the MaxForce engine all by themselves.

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4 minutes ago, GeorgiaHybrid said:

Not hardly, they were developed in Europe by DAF which is also part of Paccar.

International managed to screw up the MaxForce engine all by themselves.

Correct -  Paccar truck engines are not a derivative of any other make of engine. DAF trucks have had DAF engines since 1957. Since EPA2010 Paccar engines have been developed to suit all world markets. Paccar operates 35 or 40 engine test cells at their various facilities. AKA The Skunk Works. The Paccar MX 13l engines we get in KW and Peterbilt trucks are built in Mississippi. 

They are kind of sophistimacated what with their compact graphite iron castings, fractured rod and main cap process,  forged steel pistons, balanced internals with no counterweight crankshafts, pushrods, Great Big Camshaft, spinner oil cleaning unit, cool side EGR, simple top set maintanence ... nothing is attached to a MX engine with national pipe thread  :D

Paccar powertrain info

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On 5/26/2017 at 0:54 PM, Alie&Jim's Carrilite said:

The issue isn't removing or re-installing the items, the issue is what happens to the brand new warranty if this takes place.  Will Volvo stand behind a warranty on component areas that have been taken apart and reassembled?

So would you willingly void a 3yr 500,000-mile warranty for a hitch in the prime location?

Slow down a second. Remove/reinstall is a lot, lot different than aftermarket alteration. If the Volvo components are removed and put back where they were, they've got to warrant the piece. Or they've got to prove that what you did caused the damage. They cannot just "void the warranty", and even if they do have some sort of legal grounds to void the warranty on one piece, they cannot void the entire warranty unless they're willing to prove that each and every piece of the truck has been damaged by aftermarket stuff/work.

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5 hours ago, peety3 said:

Slow down a second. Remove/reinstall is a lot, lot different than aftermarket alteration. If the Volvo components are removed and put back where they were, they've got to warrant the piece. Or they've got to prove that what you did caused the damage. They cannot just "void the warranty", and even if they do have some sort of legal grounds to void the warranty on one piece, they cannot void the entire warranty unless they're willing to prove that each and every piece of the truck has been damaged by aftermarket stuff/work.

This has been my thought on the warranty issue all along. This is something that has been discussed in forums about Ram trucks that I have read on for years. I have also taken my Ram in for warranty service on the drivetrain and for recalls with my 35" tires and complete suspension change and have never had a issue. 

Anyways, I think I have a plan. I have kind of confirmed as some have stated here after having a talk with Henry and some crawling around my 630 I should have no problem sliding the hitch all the way into position from the rear. I will have to remove the cross brace between the spring hangers but will be able to leave the 4 huck bolts per side that do not go through the brace intact. Then 4 new bolts per side will be added to replace the ones that bolted through the brace. 

Now to figure out who to have do the install. To bad there is not someone who does this kind of thing for a living...you know like a guy that converts trucks for people to use to pull their 5th wheel trailers.....kind of like a hauler RV??? Someone should start up a business like that some day.....

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6 hours ago, 13speed said:

.......Now to figure out who to have do the install. To bad there is not someone who does this kind of thing for a living...you know like a guy that converts trucks for people to use to pull their 5th wheel trailers.....kind of like a hauler RV??? Someone should start up a business like that some day.....

Gave you one name that will do the job and several others have offered a shop as well. One thing I learned a long time ago, if someone doesn't want to do a job, find someone else and don't worry about it.

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A Kenworth has a 5 year frame warranty which would not be "voided" by installing equipment or a body with good workmanship and in accordance with their Body Builder Manual. If you torch a notch in the top flange of the rail to route wiring for your eleventeenth side rear panavision camera, they will fuss a little if you come in with a frame deflection complaint. 

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