Which inverter? Magnum vs. Victron

[OldMan]

Way too rich for my blood. I'm building a scalable system with room for more power, but inverters like that are overkill for my system. Oh, and I'll never afford any inverter mentioned in this thread.

I'm also sourcing the panels and controller from China. Bang for your buck, man. Where do you think Renogy and SunPower get their panels? Heck, Sunpower is a Chinese company with sales offices in the states.So I cut out the middleman and get better prices. I have a longer blog post I've written and saved as a text file if anyone wants to read my whole rationale.

Edited January 16, 2018 by OldMan

[ALLOY]

 

4 hours ago, OldMan said:

Way too rich for my blood. I'm building a scalable system with room for more power, but inverters like that are overkill for my system. Oh, and I'll never afford any inverter mentioned in this thread.

I'm also sourcing the panels and controller from China. Bang for your buck, man. Where do you think Renogy and SunPower get their panels? Heck, Sunpower is a Chinese company with sales offices in the states.So I cut out the middleman and get better prices. I have a longer blog post I've written and saved as a text file if anyone wants to read my whole rationale.

My buddy was looking for 4 LED lights for his truck. He got such a deal on Aliexpress that he was able to buy 6 for the cost of 1 Rigid (also made in China) LED.  A year later 2 were working, brackets were rusted, powder coat was peeling.  Then he bought 4 Bright Source LED (made in China) from a local supplier who flies to China to check quality at 1/2 the cost of Rigid.  Once these warm (have to let LED warm up to test Lumen output) up the light output is a less than Rigid because the control board is not as good but 2 years later all are still running and look good.      

There's a moral to the story but I can't think of one.

[OldMan]

11 minutes ago, ALLOY said:

 

My buddy was looking for 4 LED lights for his truck. He got such a deal on Aliexpress that he was able to buy 6 for the cost of 1 Rigid (also made in China) LED.  A year later 2 were working, brackets were rusted, powder coat was peeling.  Then he bought 4 Bright Source LED (made in China) from a local supplier who flies to China to check quality at 1/2 the cost of Rigid.  Once these warm (have to let LED warm up to test Lumen output) up the light output is a less than Rigid because the control board is not as good but 2 years later all are still running and look good.      

There's a moral to the story but I can't think of one.

I just use Super Bright LEDs

[Yarome]

On 1/15/2018 at 7:05 PM, OldMan said:

Bang for your buck, man.

 Many of us have entirely different definitions of "bang for your buck".

If you've never had experience with sourcing items directly from China, my only advice would be to not spend more than you're willing to "eat" (time and money)... graciously, and without putting yourself into a financial hardship. Other than that I'll keep my mouth shut.

Your $... your choice and wish you luck. I hope it works for you.

[Sehc]

I like my Samlex Power, and can highly recomend. I have PST-2000-12.

[lockmup68]

I now have a line on a Chevy Volt batt pack. So now I have to start overthinking 48v. You guys are spending my money too fast.....

so the Victron has dual AC inputs, so this means built-in ATS, right? it also looks like the 3000w models are only 12/24 volt. To get 48v, have to go 5000w model? the price of the 3000w's are about half of the 5000w, so maybe 2-3000w? Still only 24v? So is 24v better than 12v, better than 48v? Prob more work to do 24 v banks from the Chevy Volt battery? Too many questions again.....

[ALLOY]

9 minutes ago, lockmup68 said:

I now have a line on a Chevy Volt batt pack. So now I have to start overthinking 48v. You guys are spending my money too fast.....

so the Victron has dual AC inputs, so this means built-in ATS, right? it also looks like the 3000w models are only 12/24 volt. To get 48v, have to go 5000w model? the price of the 3000w's are about half of the 5000w, so maybe 2-3000w? Still only 24v? So is 24v better than 12v, better than 48v? Prob more work to do 24 v banks from the Chevy Volt battery? Too many questions again.....

 

For a 50am service Victron uses a inverter on each 50 amp leg

This may be of interest.

 

Before choosing the voltage take look at solar for a 48V bank..a MPPT controller needs 80V min input to charge a 48V bank.  The panels that made the best use of the space on my trailer are 70Voc.  Running 2 of these in series meant a jump up to a 200V $$ controller.  I started to look at micro inverters for the panels and pass though inverters....similar to battery (Tesla) back up.   

 

 

 

 

 

[noteven]

Electric dummy chiming in.

If I don't use a microwave or any other ac appliance, do I need an inverter? 

I'm thinking run everything with D.C. except air conditioning which would be generator or shore power.  I live in temperate weather with shade available in summer...

[Kirk W]

7 minutes ago, noteven said:

If I don't use a microwave or any other ac appliance, do I need an inverter? 

Most of the appliances in an RV are 12V-dc power except the TV and microwave. Of course, no outlets will work if you have no inverter. We have managed quite nicely without an inverter but we do not do a lot of dry camping and we do have a generator. I have a neighbor who has solar and no inverter but they don't watch TV but rarely either. It is really a matter of lifestyle. If you plan to go into a larger solar system and live for long terms without hookups, then you probably will want an inverter but it is possible. You can get 12V-dc sets as well as electric coffee makers and such but they also use a lot of 12V power. 

[noteven]

Thanks Kirk - I don't watch broadcast hellivision but I like to watch streamed or downloaded or DVD type stuff once in a while.

A guy that is smarter than me said  most of the tv's we rig inverters to power are actually low voltage internally.... maybe I saw one advertised that had both 12v and 110ac connections? 

Trucking and marine uses many low voltage equipments I see...

[mkvacik]

On 1/17/2018 at 9:30 PM, lockmup68 said:

I now have a line on a Chevy Volt batt pack. So now I have to start overthinking 48v. You guys are spending my money too fast.....

so the Victron has dual AC inputs, so this means built-in ATS, right? it also looks like the 3000w models are only 12/24 volt. To get 48v, have to go 5000w model? the price of the 3000w's are about half of the 5000w, so maybe 2-3000w? Still only 24v? So is 24v better than 12v, better than 48v? Prob more work to do 24 v banks from the Chevy Volt battery? Too many questions again.....

Sounds like we are in the same boat right now.  I attached my budget plan here, and near as I can tell the Quattro 5000 is the way to go for this application.  I should write more notes when I am researching, but I know there were some reasons to go Quattro over Multiplus.  

I looked at Magnum, even many of the "Geek" friends who have Magnum have all said they would go Victron next time.  I guess I have not seen anyone with reliability issuses, but I think there are probably less of them out there than Magnum in an RV application at this point? 

If I am understanding correctly, the one thing the monitor is giving you, is wifi, so that you can monitor and control your system from anywhere, vs only being able to do it bluetooth, which you could do without installing the monitor at all.  I was considering going without the monitor, just because my "control center" is pretty full, and my phone is always in my pocket.  The victron site shows a "Venus" that gives you the wifi stuff, without a monitor, but I can't find it actually for sale anywhere, so I don't know if it is new or what.  I emailed the supplier on my document there, but have seen nothing back from them yet on it.  

Solar.pdf

[DesertMiner]

http://shop.pkys.com/Victron-Venus-GX_p_6816.html

[mkvacik]

44 minutes ago, DesertMiner said:

http://shop.pkys.com/Victron-Venus-GX_p_6816.html

Thank you!

[DesertMiner]

👍

[OldMan]

On 3/13/2017 at 8:55 AM, lockmup68 said:

I know many use the Magnum MSH3012 inverter/charger, but what about the 3000w Victron? I've always heard Victron was super expensive, but it appears cost was is on par with the Magnums now. Thoughts? I did some searching, but my google-fu is failing me.

Victron Multiplus 3000 12v

Self-censor. Woulda liked to have said it but so many are so VERY thin-skinned. I really miss usenet. You didn't read that, but you can read this, if you're not bored, or even if you are.

For me, Victron, Magnum and the like, actually discourage the use of an entry-level approach to quality solar installations. My controller and inverter together are a bit more than $500. After seeing the $1.5K price tag for the Victron unit, I gasped and closed the window. It scared me.

The implication appears to be (among the wealthier, here)  if you're not using all this cool, highly UN-affordable stuff, you might as well stay home. Hear me out, all you rich people.

I'm a poor mofo. Yes I am. I found myself having to come up with all manner of ways to afford the fairly honkin' solar system I would like to have (though compared to some here, it's miniscule). That's why I've gone to Chinese companies, looking for discounts. I do my best to use the current political situation in the US to my advantage (sometimes I get the sympathy vote from the Chinese), especially since solar panels have become such a pain point for RV owners, who are not usually wealthy. Yes, I'm a commie. Devious...ultimately cheap, but not wanting to sacrifice...for what I want for my family. Sue me.

With regard to solar and the required system components, it has turned out, to my own level of personal chagrin, I can get all but the panels, with relative price equality (when you disregard the panels), right here in the States. *DOH*

In fact, most of it will come from Amazon. I can get 3.2vdc, 50ah LiFePo4 cells with which to build the bank. $155 ea, shipped. I need eight, but hey, cost of doing business. A pair of plain, ol' trolling motor battery boxes for the banks. I can saw off most of the lids and install BMS in opposite ends of the boxes, which will be held together with fasteners and some black JB Weld, but use part of each one to house the BMS. BMS is must have for LiFePo4 battery banks.

Solar charge controller, EPPT Tracer with coach-mounted charge indicator. $180 shipped, including a battery monitor to put in the coach. 3000/6000 watt inverter for the AC stuff. 3000/6000 pure sine wave inverter. Roughly $400 shipped. Hence my buying here. But I still would not have known, had I not taken the side trip to alibaba.com. Learning there enables me to look for things (and their prices), here.

But now, now we get to the panels. Oh, the beautiful, lovely panels.

Only the panels, themselves, are a deal from China, and here is why: I can find panels with free shipping. That's right, you read right, the Chinese have taken the tariff and flipped ol' so and so the big, Asian bird. I LOVE IT!!!

Read it and weep.

I say again, I am totally willing to help anyone who asks, even you rich guys, but you don't need my help. You can afford the high-priced spread.

Hell, I'm so ignorant, myself, sometimes I scare myself. But I want to help if you'll ask. I won't even bitch if you don't take my sage, professional and gold-plated, advice. After all, we all still stink. ;-)

Edited February 14, 2018 by OldMan
I'm a dumbass...good enough?

[OldMan]

On 1/21/2018 at 8:40 AM, Kirk Wood said:

You can get 12V-dc sets as well as electric coffee makers and such but they also use a lot of 12V power. 

We'll have that Coleman drip pot that sits on the stove. Looking into 12vdc boob toobs, only need/want one. We watch, but not every night. I'm a big radio guy. Ball games. Weather. Sports talk. Shortwave. CB. Ham.

I'm still doing the energy assessment. Part of it is difficult. For example, as you mentioned, TV. At least it's not the electron sucker of yesteryear, with a big honkin' cathode ray tube. Not sure it'll be that big, though I have a 37" right next to me and that's how I watch it. We'll see. I watch a lot of TV on my computer. Ball games in particular. But there are things not yet possessed. My energy assessment, FTM, will have to be theoretical.

Of course, lots of music. LOUD music. If only in my ears. I AM a musician, after all. Ifn you don't believe me, check out the music if you dare. I produced, wrote the instrumental, sang the backing on "Mumbo Jumbo,: and played all the guitar. And engineered the original recordings. Enjoy.

This is a book. I'm sorry. I've proofed it 15 times (yes, I am anal about language, sue me). I hope it's good enough.

[hemsteadc]

On 1/17/2018 at 7:30 PM, lockmup68 said:

I now have a line on a Chevy Volt batt pack. So now I have to start overthinking 48v. You guys are spending my money too fast.

I have a 48v system.

Nice rig, but I can't imagine trying to back that up!

Edited February 16, 2018 by hemsteadc

[mkvacik]

On 2/14/2018 at 2:27 AM, OldMan said:

Self-censor. Woulda liked to have said it but so many are so VERY thin-skinned. I really miss usenet. You didn't read that, but you can read this, if you're not bored, or even if you are.

For me, Victron, Magnum and the like, actually discourage the use of an entry-level approach to quality solar installations. My controller and inverter together are a bit more than $500. After seeing the $1.5K price tag for the Victron unit, I gasped and closed the window. It scared me.

The implication appears to be (among the wealthier, here)  if you're not using all this cool, highly UN-affordable stuff, you might as well stay home. Hear me out, all you rich people.

I'm a poor mofo. Yes I am. I found myself having to come up with all manner of ways to afford the fairly honkin' solar system I would like to have (though compared to some here, it's miniscule). That's why I've gone to Chinese companies, looking for discounts. I do my best to use the current political situation in the US to my advantage (sometimes I get the sympathy vote from the Chinese), especially since solar panels have become such a pain point for RV owners, who are not usually wealthy. Yes, I'm a commie. Devious...ultimately cheap, but not wanting to sacrifice...for what I want for my family. Sue me.

With regard to solar and the required system components, it has turned out, to my own level of personal chagrin, I can get all but the panels, with relative price equality (when you disregard the panels), right here in the States. *DOH*

In fact, most of it will come from Amazon. I can get 3.2vdc, 50ah LiFePo4 cells with which to build the bank. $155 ea, shipped. I need eight, but hey, cost of doing business. A pair of plain, ol' trolling motor battery boxes for the banks. I can saw off most of the lids and install BMS in opposite ends of the boxes, which will be held together with fasteners and some black JB Weld, but use part of each one to house the BMS. BMS is must have for LiFePo4 battery banks.

Solar charge controller, EPPT Tracer with coach-mounted charge indicator. $180 shipped, including a battery monitor to put in the coach. 3000/6000 watt inverter for the AC stuff. 3000/6000 pure sine wave inverter. Roughly $400 shipped. Hence my buying here. But I still would not have known, had I not taken the side trip to alibaba.com. Learning there enables me to look for things (and their prices), here.

But now, now we get to the panels. Oh, the beautiful, lovely panels.

Only the panels, themselves, are a deal from China, and here is why: I can find panels with free shipping. That's right, you read right, the Chinese have taken the tariff and flipped ol' so and so the big, Asian bird. I LOVE IT!!!

Read it and weep.

I say again, I am totally willing to help anyone who asks, even you rich guys, but you don't need my help. You can afford the high-priced spread.

Hell, I'm so ignorant, myself, sometimes I scare myself. But I want to help if you'll ask. I won't even bitch if you don't take my sage, professional and gold-plated, advice. After all, we all still stink. ;-)

You got me looking at panels there, I am normally very cheap, but I really want to build a system that is going to bounce down the road for years to come without issues.  I guess I doubt my knowledge enough to risk buying stuff like this without at least having the experience of at least one person to go off of and the exact unit I want.  
I am looking at 300 watt 60 cell panels, and can't find anything there comparable yet, but it is probably there if I look long enough.  

[hemsteadc]

1 hour ago, mkvacik said:

 I really want to build a system that is going to bounce down the road for years to come without issues.  

You get what you pay for.

[OldMan]

9 hours ago, hemsteadc said:

You get what you pay for.

Oh please. American solar companies source ALL their crap in China (try to find an American-made photovoltaic cell, lithium iron battery cell, charge controller OR inverter, INCLUDING Magnum and Victron, not made in China...I'll wait) and gouge Americans.

I no longer think that way. They want to gouge, I don't have to buy. Some s-head American the other day was trying to convince me of my wrongness. I laughed.

By the way, Doordash will now deliver Burger King to your door.

Edited February 20, 2018 by OldMan

[OldMan]

10 hours ago, mkvacik said:

You got me looking at panels there, I am normally very cheap, but I really want to build a system that is going to bounce down the road for years to come without issues.  I guess I doubt my knowledge enough to risk buying stuff like this without at least having the experience of at least one person to go off of and the exact unit I want.  
I am looking at 300 watt 60 cell panels, and can't find anything there comparable yet, but it is probably there if I look long enough.  

Look for the ones that say "Free Shipping." Hold 'em to that.

In addition, there is the tariff, which you and I will pay at the seaport. If you're not near a seaport, especially the West Coast, your shipping costs will rise. Often when they free shipping, they also mean "sea shipping." IOW, on a ship. To a port. Lowest cost to them.

Edited February 20, 2018 by OldMan

[Yarome]

11 hours ago, mkvacik said:

You got me looking at panels there

Just be aware that buying direct leaves you holding the bag on returns/replacement shipping costs which is generally "considerable". Also, if asked to present a receipt for warranty work, it may not be honored by distributors/service centers within the U.S.

Ie.,  You order a 100watt panel. You don't receive what you ordered, it does not perform to specifications, is damaged or DOA. Shipping may be "free" from China to a U.S. seaport but sending it back for a refund/replacement/repair may see you spending $200+ to ship back an $89 panel... that may take 4-12 weeks to get there with no reliable in country (China) ground tracking so they are on their honor to acknowledge receipt.

It's also important to be aware that some international companies are fully aware of those facts and may take advantage of end user customers. Ie., knowingly shipping a defective product or something entirely different than what you ordered. 

Buying direct isn't any kind of new revelation. There are reasons why more people aren't doing it above or beyond purchasing "component" level or other relatively low cost items. Be aware of the risks and potential levels of exposure, but ultimately it's your dime & your choice.

[Jack Mayer]

4 hours ago, Yarome said:

Just be aware that buying direct leaves you holding the bag on returns/replacement shipping costs which is generally "considerable". Also, if asked to present a receipt for warranty work, it may not be honored by distributors/service centers within the U.S.

Buying direct isn't any kind of new revelation. There are reasons why more people aren't doing it above or beyond purchasing "component" level or other relatively low cost items. Be aware of the risks and potential levels of exposure, but ultimately it's your dime & your choice.

1

Exactly. I buy a fair number of things direct. When I was doing solar installs I also bought some components directly. Fittings, etc. My philosophy on direct was/is that it has to be cheap enough that it is "throwaway" if it fails or is not satisfactory. Because the process of getting "satisfaction" with a problem is not "satisfactory". Really - it can be a major issue.  For a home project, it is less of an issue than if you are working with a customer. You should be aware of potential problems. "How well do you do in Vegas"??  However, there are some true bargains with direct purchase. There are also some good bargains on resales/refurb equipment in the US if you look. As an example, years ago I used to acquire CPEs (networking equipment) that sold retail in the $85 range (this was well before WiFiRanger came about). On surplus purchases, I paid $1.85 per unit. Yes, you read correctly. New, in box, surplus $1.85. Whats the catch? I had to buy 1000 (one thousand) at a time. Sold them all, though. So there are deals out there if you know how to balance risk/reward.

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Jack Mayer

[jcussen]

Agree, if you buy direct from China etc., be prepared to lose your money. I buy a lot direct [e-packet] from China and most items are fine, and a savings over buying often the same thing from a US based distributor. I can afford to buy 4 or 5 types of led bulbs just to find the best one. If it doesn't work, I am out a couple of bucks. Many year ago, when Tyson first brought out the "bladeless fan". I knew I needed one, but would not pay $400. Found one that looked exactly the same with the same specs, so I said "the tyson is made in China so is this one, probably same thing without the tyson label."  It looked good but only worked a week.   Called their '24 hr' support and after several months of back and forth with me sending many pics and following their trouble shooting, [had to actually cut wiring to test individual components,] they concluded that a resistor was bad on the control board, and  offered to send me a new resistor that I would have to solder into the control board after removing the bad one. That was a $200 lesson. Now I will buy bigger Chinese goods, but through an American distributor. I am prepared to pay a premium for being able to return defective goods to a US based  company.

Edited February 20, 2018 by jcussen

[Yarome]

9 hours ago, Jack Mayer said:

My philosophy on direct was/is that it has to be cheap enough that it is "throwaway" if it fails or is not satisfactory.

Exactly!

I "do" buy components direct. Ie., I recently needed 3 step-up converters so I bought 8 direct for $12. In the U.S. they would cost me $5 a pop. I order 8 because I need at least 3 out of the bunch that will perform to specs to "break even". Odds are in my favor. It's quite possible that 1 or 2 may be DOA... another 2 or 3 may not perform to spec, but I only need 3. Any above and beyond that is "gravy".

I gambled and I lucked out. No DOA's! 2 performed below specs and ended up in the trash, tested out the 6 remaining... "all good"... so I took the 3 I needed, built out the 3 "extra's" and sold them cheap to fellow SKP's. I "cleared" a barley pop out of the whole deal so everybody wins! 

There was that chance that I wouldn't have received them at all or that they would have been entirely different items than I actually ordered (although my odds were good since it's a company I've used several times before). It was 12 bucks that I was fully prepared to lose with "0" remorse. 

Apply that same philosophy to 100watt panels? Yeah... no. Too rich for my blood.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Yarome