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Solar, inverter, battery upgrade


jpcoll01

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I'm looking to install some solar on my Class C. I'd like to have enough battery to run a TV and PlayStation 4 while driving along with a Haier fridge. I have gens (onboard if I need air and a small Yamaha for other times) so not really worried about having enough solar to fully sustain the fridge but also don't want to constantly watch it.

I am fairly handy and am sure I could do the install but am also juuust lazy enough to let someone else do it if the labor isn't too much. I'm assuming it's most cost efficient to buy individual components but would be willing to look at a kit. I currently have 2 regular deep cycle 12v batteries as coach batteries. Believe I could easily fit 2 6v in their place. Would also consider LIFPO (or whatever the ones are that don't explode) if there was a good packaged solution. I have read a bunch of threads on here but was hoping for some relevant feedback maybe from someone who had rolled their own and someone who had a system installed.

Edited by jpcoll01
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jpc, you state "I'd like to have enough battery to run a TV and PlayStation 4 while driving along with a Haier fridge"

 

1) First of all, ...."while driving" your alternator, iffffffffffff sufficient rated and iffffffffffff configured such that its properly supplying good charge to your house batteries while driving should be adequate to operate an inverter (plus supply engine needs and maintain all batteries) to power a TV, play station and a Haier fridge SUBJECT TO fridge size. The Inverter needs to be big enough to START plus run the fridge as well as the TV and play station. Id recommend a Pure Sine Wave (PSW) versus a cheaper Modified Sine Wave (MSW) Inverter even though a MSW may "work" especially where sensitive electronic circuits may be used. If its a small apartment size fridge, a 600 watt Inverter might ????? (subject to fridge size) START and run the fridge HOWEVER Id go ahead an install AT LEAST a 1000 Watt PSW Inverter. THIS IS MERELY A GUESS NOT KNOWING THE FRIDGE POWER REQUIREMENTS but while installing an Inverter anyway, a 1000 watt will allow room for future growth even if a smaller unit "MIGHT" power the fridge and TV and "likely" run a small apartment size fridge subject to its power requirements.

 

2) I like your idea to install two full true deep cycle 6 volt batteries in series versus your current what Id bet are quasi deep cycle so called RV Marine batteries. If you were to install say two flooded lead acid Trojan T-105's you would have something like 225 Amp Hours of energy storage.

 

3) My Class C power requirements sound similar to yours and I "got by" with two 6 Volt Deep Cycles,,,, 200 Watts of Rooftop Solar, 20 Amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller, powering a small Haier Fridge plus a small TV and LED lights etc using a 1000 watt PSW Inverter HOWEVER if there wasn't enough sunlight I couldn't keep up as I don't like to discharge my house batteries much over 25%. In such cases Id fire up my Genset and let it run to power my then 60 amp smart charger.

 

4) While a kit or purchasing a turn key equipment and labor package is good for those who don't want to do their own install, its reasonable to purchase say a couple 100 watt solar panels or a SINGLE 200 or 235 etc. (easier to wire up) , plus the two batteries and wire up your solar charge controller and an Inverter to the batteries.

 

SUMMARY while undertaking this project and to allow for future expansion in a Class C and power a small apartment size fridge, Id recommend at least 200 solar watts,,,,,,,,,, a 1000 Watt PSW Inverter,,,,,,,, at least two true deep cycle 6 volt golf cart batteries,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a 20 or 30 Amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller,,,,,,,,,,,,,at least a 40 amp so called "Smart" 3/4 stage Battery Charger. While in my Class C I "got by" with two Trojans and 200 solar watts to run my Haier fridge and TV and LED lights etc., I'm doing much better now with 470 watts of solar, four Trojans (450 Amp Hours), 2000 Watt PSW Inverter, MPPT Solar Charge Controller and 80 Amp Smart 4 Stage Charger.

 

There are many sharp gents here to assist you in purchasing or self installing whatever system you choose and these are merely my Class C choices and experiences (small Haier Fridge) so do your homework especially regarding the fridges power requirements and best wishes.

 

John T

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  • 3 weeks later...

I ended up installing a Kisae 1000 watt Pure Sine wave inverter.  Used 4 gauge battery cable about a 4 foot run. I wired up a new outlet which will work for TV/PlayStation and ran an extension cord to refrigerator. The inverter shows the fridge pulling 60 watts. That seems pretty low. 

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jpc, as I best recall when I used a killawatt meter for 24 hours on my small Haier fridge it was only like 35 Amp Hours per day (depends on temp and how often door was opened) and after the initial start up surge it drew less then an amp (that's recall no warranty) so your figures don't surprise me all that much. While it was overkill I installed a 2 KW PSW Inverter. I have oftened dry camped days at a time and I run the Haier 24/7 plus the usual water pump and vent fans and LED lights etc or occasional furnace and my solar keeps up.

 

  John T

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I added two Group 31 AGM Duracells from Sams so how about 210 Amp Hours. How much of that is usable with AGMs?  I was told that they were fine to be taken down to 20% (I.e. Use 80% of the capacity) but that seems suspect. Anyway, my actual question is about solar. I'd like to add a panel or two but I'm not sure I understand the charge controller side of it. My current batteries are hooked up to the converter/charger that came with the RV so I assume I'd have to turn that off and add a different controller?

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19 hours ago, jpcoll01 said:

I added two Group 31 AGM Duracells from Sams so how about 210 Amp Hours. How much of that is usable with AGMs?  I was told that they were fine to be taken down to 20% (I.e. Use 80% of the capacity) but that seems suspect. Anyway, my actual question is about solar. I'd like to add a panel or two but I'm not sure I understand the charge controller side of it. My current batteries are hooked up to the converter/charger that came with the RV so I assume I'd have to turn that off and add a different controller?

  So, did you replace the two lead acid with these two AGM's ??? I wouldn't like to charge the new AGM's in parallel with old lead acids. Same as solar panels, I like the batteries all matched in size and rating and type and brand and even age for best balance and charging. While its possible to send 12 volts nominal (Vmp maybe 17)  down from the panels to a charge controller to charge 12 volt batteries, I prefer 24 volt nominal volts into a charge controller especially if its like my older cheap PWM... THIS IS ALL CONCERNED WITH YOUR PANEL VOLTAGES AND HOW YOU WIRE MULTIPLE PANELS. Are you using two 100 watt twelve volt panels in series (24 nominal volts) ??? or two 100 watt twelve volt panels in parallel (12 nominal volts) IF IT WERE ME AND IM ONLY USING ONE PANEL FOR EASE OF MOUNTING AND WIRING ID USE A SINGLE 235 WATT 24 VOLT PANEL MYSELF. I have two such units in parallel I bought for 90 cents per watt.

 If you're going to add a panel or two you need to choose voltage (like 12 or 24 nominal, Vmp higher of course) then series or parallel operation and if the real estate and location makes it such that one might possibly be shaded while the other one isn't, Id consider parallel wiring as a shaded unit drags down another series unit.. Of course you FIRST need to choose a solar charge controller  high enough current rated (like a 20 amp or 30 amp unit) so under ideal max sunlight conditions it can handle all the power the panels provide. I prefer an MPPT although a cheaper PWM will work.   The "charge controller side of it" goes between the panels and batteries for solar charging while your Converter/Charger uses 120 VAC shore power to do so when plugged in. The solar charge controller is what takes the panels raw output (maybe 24 or more nominal subject to panel size and how wired) and converts it to perhaps 14+ to maybe 13.6 to maybe 13.2 float level float charge (subject to its design and charging algorithms) to charge and maintain your house batteries BE SURE YOUR CONTROLER IS SUITABLE FOR OR HAS SETTINGS FOR YOUR AGM BATTERIES (not lead acid only).   

 Soooooooooo Id consider 210 total Amp Hours (If that's what you have????) as decent minimum energy storage, maybe a single 200+ or a couple 100 watts solar panels, maybe a 20 amp (or 30 for future expansion) MPPT or PWM Solar Charge Controller (between panels and batteries) and Id prefer a so called Smart 3 or 4 stage charger. I'm unsure of your batteries, are you talkin two twelves in parallel or two sixes in series??? In series voltage adds but NOT amp hours while in parallel amp hours ads while voltage is the same.  

 From my experience for extended dry camping to run a small Haier fridge 24/7 plus lights and pumps and vent fans etc (especially much furnace time) 210 total battery amp hours and 200 solar watts is gonna be the very very  minimum and that's even under decent sunlight hours. My 470 solar watts and 450 battery amp hours is doing the job but half that is on the edge OF COURSE  if you have say a 40 to 60 amp charger and run the genset maybe an hour a day that may keep you going.

 200 Solar watts,,,,,,,,,,,,a 20 amp solar charge controller,,,,,,,,,,210 battery amp hours is a darn good start but that Haier fridge 24/7 is gonna tax it !!!! All subject to sunlight and angle and all your loads 

  DISCLAIMER while I believe this to be true and my experiences I couldn't pack water to many of the fine gents here who are far more experienced and solar savvy then myself SO LISTEN TO THEM before me, I'm an electrical engineer but long retired and rusty and NOT any solar expert

  PS my experience when I had 200 solar watts supplying my Haier fridge and fans and water pump furnace and lights etc for long term dry camping  WAS FOR FLAT ROOF MOUNTED PANELS and that's what I based my opinion on that such is questionable (based on sun and loads) but might get you by especially if you run a generator and charger a bit morning and nights. My 200 "worked" but 200 flat solar watts isn't gonna set the world on fire for long term dry camping running the Haier fridge 24/7.

 John T    

 

Edited by oldjohnt
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On 3/11/2017 at 10:30 AM, jpcoll01 said:

I added two Group 31 AGM Duracells from Sams so how about 210 Amp Hours. How much of that is usable with AGMs?  I was told that they were fine to be taken down to 20% (I.e. Use 80% of the capacity) but that seems suspect. Anyway, my actual question is about solar. I'd like to add a panel or two but I'm not sure I understand the charge controller side of it. My current batteries are hooked up to the converter/charger that came with the RV so I assume I'd have to turn that off and add a different controller?

No problems with taking the Trojan AGM batteries down to 20% of charge other than the expected life of the battery is reduced from 2000 discharge/charge cycles at 25% discharge to 500 cycles at 80% discharge.  That is reducing the life of the battery by 75%. 

Here is a link to Trojan's website.  Scroll down a ways to the "Cycle Life Chart for Non Reliant AGM"

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 
2020 Chevy Colorado Toad
San Antonio, TX

http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/

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On 3/11/2017 at 10:30 AM, jpcoll01 said:

I added two Group 31 AGM Duracells from Sams so how about 210 Amp Hours. How much of that is usable with AGMs?  I was told that they were fine to be taken down to 20% (I.e. Use 80% of the capacity) but that seems suspect. Anyway, my actual question is about solar. I'd like to add a panel or two but I'm not sure I understand the charge controller side of it. My current batteries are hooked up to the converter/charger that came with the RV so I assume I'd have to turn that off and add a different controller?

Unless you add an inverter to supply 120V AC from the batteries you don't need to do anything with your converter.  It will only come into use when you connect to shore power or the generator.   If you do add an inverter be sure its 120V output doesn't go to the converter.  It will put you into a loop, the inverter powering the converter which is charging the batteries which are discharging to the inverter, etc.  The usual converter which comes with a RV is a single stage charger which takes many, many hours to fully charge the battery bank.  A 3 or 4 stage charger is much better. 

You can install solar panels which connect directly to the batteries.  They need to be the 12V nominal (usually about 18V).  It is better for unattended operation to use a solar controller which will monitor the battery charge level and not overcharge the batteries. 

Here are some websites with lots of great info about RV electric, batteries, solar, etc.  They will keep you busy reading and learning for a number of hours:

The 12volt Side of Life (Part 1) Batteries

The 12volt Side of Life Part Solar & Inverters

Jack Mayer RV Electrical

Jack Mayer Battery & Charging

RV Dreams Electrical Systems

Deep Cycle Battery Information

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 
2020 Chevy Colorado Toad
San Antonio, TX

http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/

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As far as location of the converter, try looking for a power center where you have the 120V AC circuit breakers and the 12V fuses.  The converter is usually bolted or attached right there. Once you find the converter it is usually pretty easy to find the AC power wires going to the converter and disconnect them.  Then you could route the wires to a new 3 stage charger.  

About installing solar, as I wrote in my last reply

Quote

You can install solar panels which connect directly to the batteries.  They need to be the 12V nominal (usually about 18V).  It is better for unattended operation to use a solar controller which will monitor the battery charge level and not overcharge the batteries. 

For details and extensive info about installing and wiring solar panels and solar charge controllers, I suggest you use the links I gave above for reference. 

A number of people have just carried a solar panel or two in a storage compartment  and ran a wire from the panels to the battery and set the panels on the ground.  Very simple. 

I have no personal experience with stand alone chargers.  I have installed Magnum inverter/chargers in my last two motorhomes, along with solar panels.  It is always a pain to do a good job of running the wires to where they need to go.

 

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36G 
2020 Chevy Colorado Toad
San Antonio, TX

http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/

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jpc, many factory OEM Converter/Chargers are built in and a part of (behind) your AC and DC power distribution center assembly.  On some RV's I owned the Converter/Charger had its own 15 amp 120 VAC circuit breaker I turned off to disable it. You can easily remove and safely secure its 3 wire (Black Hot, White Neutral, Bare/Green Ground) 120 VAC input and 12 volt output (wires to your batteries and 12 VDC supply buss) if you don't want to use it.  If I'm not mistaken Progressive Dynamics makes a replacement SMART 3/4 Stage Charger with Charge Wizard that takes the place of old style Converter/Chargers and bolts and wires right in to replace old style units.

 If you just unwire and disable an old style DUMB Converter/Charger you can replace battery charging with several brands and styles and sizes (20 or 40 or 60 or 80 amp etc) of stand alone so called modern Smart 3 or 4 stage  chargers that require 120 VAC 15 or 20 amp input (plug or hard wired to your AC distribution panel, maybe the old circuit that fed your old converter/charger) and then two DC output wires that connect to your + and - battery posts. My past two smart 3/4 stage chargers were Progressive Dynamics 9200 series with intelli charge and charge wizard circuitry. Your batteries have to, of course, be wired to your present 12 VDC power distribution buss to feed all your fused 12 VDC loads. Right now that all takes place in your current Converter/Charger which is wired to your batteries to charge them plus use them to feed loads.  

 No idea of the size and type, Watts and if  PSW or MSW of your current Inverter. It can be a stand alone device with two 12 VDC input wires to your house batteries (use big enough cables and locate close to batteries) and a 120 VAC output you can hard wire to certain receptacles etc.   To run my small Haier fridge while driving or dry camping I did have a 1000 Watt PSW Inverter (worked fine) but now I have a 2000 Watt to allow for expansion. If you want to get fancy and spend more bucks you can opt for a combination Charger with Inverter that charges batteries when plugged to shore power and uses their output to feed its Inverter for 120 VAC service.

 Again, Id hang at least a single 200+ watt 24 volt Solar panel on your roof (or a couple 100 watt twelves),,, wire that to a 20 amp (or 30 for expansion) Solar Charge Controller input (PWM or better but more money MPPT) ,,,,,,,,,the charge controllers output wires to your batteries for charging,,,,,,,,,that with your 210 Amp Hours of AGM plus an Inverter and Smart Charger and your occasional genset use (to power your smart charger, Id opt for at least 40 amps preferably 60 amp smart charger)  should allow for decent dry camping and running the Haier fridge all subject to sunlight and loads and generator run time etc

 No need to re invent the wheel read the info posted above and do your homework and go for it. This is ONLY a very basic description, tons of info including safety and battery venting and wire sizes etc etc can be added

 

John T NOT a solar expert

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

I Have had a couple opportunities to use my setup and I had to run my small gen (Yamaha inverter) to keep the batteries charged. Think I need a smart charger and some solar like John T suggested.  The Kisae inverter has a display but it isn't mounted somewhere convenient so figure I need to add some kind of monitor as well.   Suggestions on a solar package?  I'm fairly handy and have pretty easy access via refrigerator vent. 

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You have to watch it with solar "packages" lest you sell yourself short in the performance department. There are a few primary questions that you have to ask yourself before committing to a system. The first two go hand in hand, i.e. "How much solar do I need?" and "How much space do I have on the roof for it?" I usually start with the second one as it is quite often the limiting factor, especially on smaller rigs. The only way to tell is to get up on the roof of your RV and see what spaces you have available for solar modules where shading by vents, air conditioners, etc. will not be a problem. Take a look at a solar sales website, such as wwww.altestore.com and see what they have available that will fit your application.

Keep in mind that you will need to use modules of the same current rating if your are going to connect them in series and use a MPPT charge controller, or use modules of the same voltage rating for parallel connections and either a PWM or MPPT charge controller. Series connected systems are less shade tolerant, but parallel connected modules will usually require larger conductors between the roof and the charge controller, which should be installed near the batteries. Another thing to consider is the cost of shipping. Small modules of up to about 180W can usually be shipped inexpensively via UPS, but larger modules will require truck freight, which can easily double the purchase price.

Tom - KK8M. MI Licensed Journeyman Electrician (35 years), ISA Level 2 Instrumentation Technician, UL Certified Solar Installer.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 3 years later...

jpc, as I best recall when I used a killawatt meter for 24 hours on my small Haier fridge it was only like 35 Amp Hours per day (depends on temp and how often door was opened) and after the initial start up surge it drew less then an amp (that's recall no warranty) so your figures don't surprise me all that much. While it was overkill I installed a 2 KW off grid PSW Inverter. I have oftened dry camped days at a time and I run the Haier 24/7 plus the usual water pump and vent fans and LED lights etc or occasional furnace and my solar keeps up.

 

Edited by david056
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