Trailer Brakes

[SuiteSuccess]

Getting ready for National. Jacked trailer up to check brakes and bearings. I have electric drum brakes with MaxBrake controller. Had wife apply brakes as I spun the tires. Noticed they applied properly but didn't seem to release easily even though brake pedal was released. If I reversed spin (simulating backing up) only a couple of inches they seemed to release and tires spun forward freely. Played with different gains on the MaxBrake and didn't seem to make a difference. As can be seen in the pic I have the automatic adjusters. BTW can hear what I think is the magnets releasing and I cleaned the shoes and drums with brake cleaner. Any ideas? On edit I also checked to make sure the adjuster seating was ok after reading Charlie Lords post about his brake issue.

[adept99]

I think you may need to replace the trailer above the axles. That should come with new brakes and will eliminate the problem...

 

(Sorry Carl)

[BigTexRex]

First, in the picture of your brake assembly, why is the magnet hanging freely? I don't know how much resistance you have when you spin the wheel, but there should be some minor resistance.

[RandyA]

Carl, don't expect properly adjusted electric drum brakes that have mileage on them to completely release the shoes so that there is no drag. You might get the full release with no drag by installing new drums, shoes and springs. But, like the ones you have now they will not wear in a perfect circle. The leading edge of each shoe will wear faster than the trailing edge leaving you with an imperfect circle. If you mic the shoes you will find that the thickness is no longer equal on both ends. If you back off on the adjusters so that there is no drag they will quickly return to their present state via the self adjusters. As long as you can spin the wheel with minimal effort you are good to go. If there is considerable drag it is possibly time for a new brake set.

 

The Max Brake should not provide any voltage to the magnet when the truck brakes are NOT applied. I seriously doubt that your controller is having an impact on what you are observing.

[LostSoul]

When mine was delivered limpert provided a drum full of parts. I guess their products are some assembly required.

[SuiteSuccess]

First, in the picture of your brake assembly, why is the magnet hanging freely? I don't know how much resistance you have when you spin the wheel, but there should be some minor resistance.

I took the clip out that holds the magnet to begin cleaning. Was reattached properly.

 

Thanks for the replies. Randy, your explanation made me feel more at ease.

[Hot Rod]

I've had a bunch or trailer with electric brakes of all sizes over the years, and I can't say I've ever had one where the auto adjusters did their job properly. We used to put a ton of miles on our cargo trailers for events, and every one got completely disassembled, inspected, bearings cleaned, lubed, and adjusted annually. Then several adjustments throughout the season to keep the brakes stopping properly. In my experience with adjusting used shoes is tighten until the drum stops, then back off a few clicks until it is free. May have to go back and forth a click or two to get that sweet spot where it is free and just at the edge of dragging. But there should be no significant drag when properly adjusted, or the brakes will heat up while driving. On new shoes I adjust with just a slight bit of drag and they will wear in quickly from there with no further readjustment. Just my habits, worked for me, others will have different ways which may work just as well.

 

Just some things to look for that may introduce drag: if the magnet and/or matching surface on the drum has odd wear patterns it may drag differently as the magnet/shoe assembly moves. if the hardware is unusually rusty or filled with brake dust, it may not allow the shoes to move freely and create drag. I usually install new hardware with new shoes and make sure everything else is clean and dust free and moving freely. it seems to me if it is dragging one way and not the other, something is binding up or not moving as freely as it should. And of course when the shoes and magnets and everything wear out at the same time, it is usually not that much more to replace the entire assembly as a unit and be done with it.

 

Are you running tire pressure monitors? Those will give you a nice comfort level, if a brake starts acting up it will show up right away on the tire temperature and you can catch it before anything bad happens.

[SIBERNUT]

Because of the design, one shoe is somewhat "self energizing" when brakes are applied. Since (as pointed out) the shoe will conform to the drum with wear, this increases the effect. Once the wheel starts turning again, it should retract. Try this- apply the brakes & release. Move the wheel slightly in reverse and it should release. If so, normal operation is once you move fwd again after application, it should retract after a second of resistance

[Jack Mayer]

.....and all of this is why I prefer disc brakes. Way less maintenance in my experience and a more reliable brake. I'm not say that they stop better than a properly adjusted drum brake....but how many properly adjusted drum brakes are out there. They come out of adjustment pretty easily, at least in my experience. I find overall maintenance on disc brakes to be far less....

[SuiteSuccess]

Because of the design, one shoe is somewhat "self energizing" when brakes are applied. Since (as pointed out) the shoe will conform to the drum with wear, this increases the effect. Once the wheel starts turning again, it should retract. Try this- apply the brakes & release. Move the wheel slightly in reverse and it should release. If so, normal operation is once you move fwd again after application, it should retract after a second of resistance

 

Ron,

 

You describe exactly what I was finding. The brakes would fully apply, then with slight reversal of the spin, would release.

Hot Rod: I do have TST tpms and watch the temps. I cleaned and hopefully calibrated all the brakes as you described. Will see what happens as we head to Hutch.

[SuiteSuccess]

.....and all of this is why I prefer disc brakes. Way less maintenance in my experience and a more reliable brake. I'm not say that they stop better than a properly adjusted drum brake....but how many properly adjusted drum brakes are out there. They come out of adjustment pretty easily, at least in my experience. I find overall maintenance on disc brakes to be far less....

I'm agreeing and if we keep this trailer may bite the bullet and switch. Do you prefer Dexters over Kodiaks?

[Jack Mayer]

I'm agreeing and if we keep this trailer may bite the bullet and switch. Do you prefer Dexters over Kodiaks?

I do. But there are pros/cons to both solutions, and I've had them both.

 

I will say that the Kodiak brakes do stop the rig as well as the Dexters....in my testing both can lock up the wheels. I just think the Dexters are better build and they are larger. The main selling points of the Kodiak is 1) price, and 2) availability of pads.

 

If you are going to run BluDot then the Kodiak has some installation nuances that you have to account for (air pressure regulation), but other than that they both seem to perform well.

[oletimer]

I don't want to get too deep into this thread, because I differ than most, and I could be wrong (Man, that hurts to say!). But, over the last 25 years, we've ordered 5 new 5th's. The 1st two, had electric brakes, and I never had any confidence in them. The last three had HD, hydraulic. We upgraded our Teton to Mor/Ryde, and Kodiak disc, with BluDot , after about 70K miles on the Teton, and the HD drums still had about 70% of the shoe left. After the upgrade, it seemed like I spent more time rebuilding the brakes/bearings, than I did using them. I agree with Jack, I think the Dexters might be better built, but I think on a triple axel, he found you need two Blu/Dot systems??? You can however, go to most any auto parts store and buy parts for the Kodiak discs, just ask for pads, and such for the Mopar CARS!

I've rambled too much now, but I will say, when we ordered our 2016 5th, it was ordered with BluDot air over HD hydraulic DRUMS. I'm happy now with my brakes. Don't want to cause a fuss, so take this comment for what it's worth, nothing!

 

Dick T

[Jack Mayer]

Dick is correct...with the larger Dexter disc brakes you need dual BluDot master cylinders. There is too much fluid in the Dexters to push with a single BluDot. I like this because it gives you two INDEPENDENT braking systems. One for the first axle and one that covers the next two. If you use a standard electric/hydraulic actuator you only need one.

[beyerjf]

Back to OP. I am willing to bet in the real world bouncing down the highway the brakes will release more than your static test in the driveway. Vibration is a wonderful thing properly used. Helps a lot of electrical problems. Of course a properly design brake ( air or hydraulic discs) as Jack mentioned would be the best solution.

[HERO Maker]

In my quest to install Bludot onto my recently acquired 2016 mobile suites with electric over hydraulic Kodiak disk brakes, I asked a lot of questions.

1. Talked with DRV regarding changing their system - they referred me to Kodiac

 

2. Talked with Kodiak and let them know we have heard that the 1500 lb pressure that BluDot provides was too much for their brakes - Their reply was that they test all brakes at 1600 lbs before shipping!

 

3. Talked with MorRyde and discussed the issue of too much pressure with BluDot and they recommended the 1K pressure system from BluDot.

 

4. Talked with Bludot and said I didn't see their 1K system listed online - they said it is available and agreed with MorRyde that it should be used with the Kodiak brakes.

 

Have it, and it will be installed when I get to the RGV by a guy who has installed several of them. It is pretty hard getting them installed elsewhere, and I'm just not strong enough to do it myself yet, but it can be done DIY.

[HERO Maker]

RickW and I visited with a car hauler trailer manufacturer and he was really adamant against using air over hydraulic brakes on his trailers because every one he has done has been a major malfunction creating other problems.

When I mentioned the 1K system vs the 1.5K system, he didn't say much but I kinda think a little revelation was just made on his end.

[oletimer]

Rocky,

Not sure who you talked to at Kodiak, but when I was having all my problems, that's not what I was told. On one or more of Jack's threads he mentioned with Kodiak, you should install a front axel hold-off valve, PLUS a regulator on the tank, and have it set at 85 PSI. Opps, now that I think about it, maybe the front axel hold off valve came from somewhere else! (I just had another B-day, more years, less brains). Anyway, until I installed the front hold-off valve, I had destroyed pads, calipars, seals, and bearings. After the first time, I rebuilt everything, and checked after just a few (20-30) miles, and the brakes we very hot. Everyone kept telling me I had air in the system, so I bled, rebled, changed fluid, until Susan was about to choke me. I then bought a bleeder, and tried some more about 3 gal. fluid. Brakes still got hot, why, I don't know, because the trailer seemed to free wheel OK. Had to do another rebuild, then installed the hold-off, and had no more problems. The down side to that is the hold-off valve will not allow ANY pressure to the booster until 4psi, so moderate braking is a little flakey, then you get a little jerk. As far as I know, the new owners of the Teton, has had no problems, but they are using electric/hydraulic.

Sorry Suite, to hijack this thread. Dick T BTW, Rocky, I also tried both boosters, I gave them both to Wyatt.

[SuiteSuccess]

No problem Dick. The strays from topic are often very informative.

[Jack Mayer]

It is really pretty simple.

 

With the large Dexter disc brakes split the system and use two master cylinder setups. You MUST do this or the brakes will not work.

 

With Kodiak, reduce the pressure in the system with an RV1 valve setting the tank pressure to an appropriate level....typically around 100 psi or less. It is a 10/1 ratio so that will keep the line pressures below 1000psi. You should have zero problems below 1000. You can verify theline pressures by instrumenting the hydraulic line with a gauge.

[noteven]

Does the HDT - RV world need a RV trailer air brake system? I don't understand the attraction of the air actuated electric/hydraulic brake?

 

I'm pretty slow on the uptake most days but commercial type ABS air brakes like the HDT has would seem to be a good reliable system vs wires, actuators,valves,pumps, magnets, fluid, etc.

 

What is the attraction to these rv systems?

[SuiteSuccess]

Another question: If I had difficulty while on the road could I just unplug the MaxBrake and use the truck as the braking until reaching Hutch? Pretty flat past Memphis on my route.

[lockmup68]

dumb question, where is best place to get the bludot system? And how much outlay we talking?

 

Thanks,

[RickW]

I'm agreeing and if we keep this trailer may bite the bullet and switch. Do you prefer Dexters over Kodiaks?

Carl when I upgraded my suspension to MorRyde I/S I also did the disk brake conversion at the same time. Well worth the money and will not get another trailer with out disks.

 

RickW and I visited with a car hauler trailer manufacturer and he was really adamant against using air over hydraulic brakes on his trailers because every one he has done has been a major malfunction creating other problems.

When I mentioned the 1K system vs the 1.5K system, he didn't say much but I kinda think a little revelation was just made on his end.

 

Rocky is correct this guy wants nothing to do with a air over hydraulic brake system. All the ones he has done in the past have been nothing but headaches for him as well as fellow trailer builders in the race car trailer arena. He was was dumbfounded that RVers are not experiencing the same issues. He did seem to have a moment when the lower PSI system was mentioned but not enough to consider trying another.

 

Does the HDT - RV world need a RV trailer air brake system? I don't understand the attraction of the air actuated electric/hydraulic brake?

I'm pretty slow on the uptake most days but commercial type ABS air brakes like the HDT has would seem to be a good reliable system vs wires, actuators,valves,pumps, magnets, fluid, etc.

What is the attraction to these rv systems?

 

While for normal driving not having trailer brakes is not a big deal when pulling with a HDT. Now for a panic/quick stop you will be glad to also have brakes on the trailer.

 

Also keep in mind most of us with a HDT have a GCVW from 40k# to 55k#, depending on how we are setup.

 

Also depending on where you are registered trailer brakes are required when you cross a certain weight threshold. In Texas for example, my home, all trailers with a GVW over 4500 must have brakes. While nothing on my trailer registration indicates weather my trailer has brakes or not, technically I would not pass my annual safety inspection. No passing inspection, no registration. I only say technically because I have never the brakes on the trailer inspected before.

 

The advantage of air over hydraulic with a HDT is no brake controller is needed. The truck is already setup and ready to go as is. Another advantage is most brake controller do not get input from the vehicles braking system. They depend on a change in vehicle speed to basically swing a pendulum that then applies the brakes. A HDT does not create the movement needed for the pendulum of the average brake controller to activate much or not at all. There are very few choices for a aftermarket brake controller that actually measure the pressure being applied.

[GeorgiaHybrid]

 

... Another advantage is most brake controller do not get input from the vehicles braking system. They depend on a change in vehicle speed to basically swing a pendulum that then applies the brakes. A HDT does not create the movement needed for the pendulum of the average brake controller to activate much or not at all. There are very few choices for a aftermarket brake controller that actually measure the pressure being applied.

 

 

Rick,

 

I still don't understand the reasoning behind the pendulum style controllers not working. We had a Prodigy in old Freightliner and it never gave me a problem and the brakes on the trailer worked just fine. Deceleration at a constant rate is what moves the pendulum on those controllers. If you decelerate at .5G in a pickup truck or a semi, .5G is still .5G. If you stop a vehicle in 200 feet from 60mph, it doesn't make any difference what vehicle you are stopping, the pendulum will move the same amount.

 

I keep seeing this in a lot of posts so what am I missing?