The value of solar and dry camping/boondocking

[skp51443]

When drilling into thin luan plywood you need the cleanest possible hole for something like well nuts to hold in. A new sharp wood bit is essential, a metal or universal bit won't do as good a job. Drill slowly with minimal pressure or you'll splinter the back side of the hole. A scrap of luan to practice on is not a bad idea.

Something like these will cut clean holes and leave you the strongest mounting hole.

https://smile.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW1720-Brad-Point-6-Piece/dp/B005GOM3VO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1474431005&sr=8-3

[Yarome]

Masking tape or a little wood glue spread around the drill pattern that is easily sanded will do wonders when drilling thin luan. Keep it Simple..

[VallAndMo]

Hi Stan and Yarome,

 

Thanks for the tips re: drilling. Lots to learn!

 

Cheers,

--

Vall.

[rvnetor]

Wow! Great info! currently upgrading the solar power system (keeping the Renogy panels, reliable, works great) but upgrading the AGM battery bank with LFP batteries. Would be interested to get advices on brand names and vendors.

And a quick remark, as I am upgrading also the "solar control information panel" just received yesterday this nice little gadget - https://goo.gl/JumjiN - should be useful and look nice/geeky!

[Al F]

Wow! Great info! currently upgrading the solar power system (keeping the Renogy panels, reliable, works great) but upgrading the AGM battery bank with LFP batteries. Would be interested to get advices on brand names and vendors.

And a quick remark, as I am upgrading also the "solar control information panel" just received yesterday this nice little gadget - https://goo.gl/JumjiN - should be useful and look nice/geeky!

Excellent move to add a monitor to "know" how many amp hours (AH) are going out of your battery and how many are being put back in by solar, generator or shore power.

 

Just be sure the monitor will show you how many AH have been used.

 

It is not clear to me (I didn't spend much time researching the product you are buying) that it will show the total AH's that have be used.

 

If you have 200AH's of battery it is very important to know if you have used a total of 50AH or 100AH (drained the battery down 25% or 50%). While I find it very informative to know that the current drain is XX amps and/or XX watts, the really important information is the total AH going out or left in the batteries.

[justRich]

Hello Rich & Sylvia,

 

 

+1. Thanks also for the reference to the "well nuts" thing, did you mean these ones?believe it or not, I'd never heard of them before.

 

Cheers,

--

Vall.

Yes. . . those are them. Check YouTube for "well nuts" for more info.

[trailertraveler]

We paid for camping 72 days...Total camping costs for the trip of $1046.26...In the 139 days, we connected to electric a total of 2 nights.

If we needed to stay in RV parks for $45 a day, for all 139 days, our camping costs would have been $6255 (or at $40 a day the costs would have been $5560) versus our actual cost of $1046.

Camping costs are highly variable and often dependent on the area in which one is traveling. Without debating the differences in camping style; I'll offer another perspective.

 

Your average cost for paid campsites appears to have been $14.53/night ($1046/72). In comparison, We have had water and electric hookups every night for the past two months at BLM ($7.50/night), Corps of Engineers ($8.00 & $10.00/night) and New Mexico State Parks ($14/night). At least for us, the several thousand dollar investment in solar panels, lithium batteries, etc, would not be a big money saver given the way and the areas in which we travel.

[Al F]

A few days ago, 9/11/16, we arrived back in the Portland, OR area, to visit with family again. Completing a 139 day trip to Canada and Alaska. 11 weeks in Alaska and the remainder in Canada.

 

We paid for camping 72 days with 67 days of free camping, for an average daily cost of $7.53 a day. Total camping costs for the trip of $1046.26.

 

In the 139 days, we connected to electric a total of 2 nights, when we stayed in an RV Park in Skagway, AK.

 

 

 

 

 

Camping costs are highly variable and often dependent on the area in which one is traveling. Without debating the differences in camping style; I'll offer another perspective.

 

Your average cost for paid campsites appears to have been $14.53/night ($1046/72). In comparison, We have had water and electric hookups every night for the past two months at BLM ($7.50/night), Corps of Engineers ($8.00 & $10.00/night) and New Mexico State Parks ($14/night). At least for us, the several thousand dollar investment in solar panels, lithium batteries, etc, would not be a big money saver given the way and the areas in which we travel.

I guess I didn't make it clear enough that the trip was 139 days/nights, not 72 days. The average daily camping cost $1046/139 is $7.53.

 

Yes, there are places where you can stay with electric hookups for a lot less than $40/night, just as your figures show.

 

Definitely, for the RV'ers which almost always select places to stay with electric and those who almost always stay in RV Parks because that is where they like to stay, it doesn't make any sense to spend thousands for solar and more or larger batteries. It isn't even worth the expense to install an inverter at a cost of between $800 to $2000 to operate your TV and satellite dish and keep your computers/lap tops charged, or even operate a microwave/toaster/coffee pot, etc.

 

It definitely is a life style choice. A lot also depends on where you travel.

[trailertraveler]

...I guess I didn't make it clear enough that the trip was 139 days/nights, not 72 days. The average daily camping cost $1046/139 is $7.53. ..

I understood exactly what you said. One of my points was that there is a difference between the average daily cost when you figure in a whole bunch of zeros whether they be true boondocking, dry camping, Wally docking or driveway docking and the average cost for paid campsites. What I said and what you actually even quoted was that

Your average cost for paid campsites appears to have been $14.53/night ($1046/72).

Another point that I was trying to make was that since apparently many of those 72 nights had no electric hookups (as you stated that you only had electric 2 nights), that it is possible to have electric at costs equal to or lower than what dry camping can cost in some areas.

 

We actually do boondock/dry camp some for a day or two or three. Usually in forested areas in the East or Mountain West where I seriously doubt that even the most modern solar panels would be all that efficient. In some places parking in the sun (i.e. more heat in the RV) may be an option, but in many it is not.

[Al F]

I understood exactly what you said. One of my points was that there is a difference between the average daily cost when you figure in a whole bunch of zeros whether they be true boondocking, Wally docking or driveway docking and the cost for paid campsites. What I said and what you actually even quoted was that

 

 

Another point that I was trying to make was that since apparently many of those 72 nights had no electric hookups (as you stated that you only had electric 2 nights), that it is possibly to have electric at costs equal to or lower than what dry camping can cost in some areas.

 

 

We actually do boondock/dry camp some for a day or two or three. Usually in forested areas in the East or Mountain West where I seriously doubt that even the most modern solar panels would be all that efficient. In some places parking in the sun (i.e. more heat in the RV) may be an option, but in many it is not.

Yep. I all depends on if someone is interested in cost only for paid camping rather than for the total trip.

 

Only 2 nights of the paid for camping sites had electric hookups. The remaining 70 nights had no elect, water or sewer hookups.

 

Yep. Boondocking/dry camping for 1-3 days. No need to for extra batteries, generators, inverters, solar panels. No question there. I thought it was pretty clear in my original post that is not the way we travel.

[fly2low]

Al

thanks for your original post

Our travelling style is similar to yours, and it is why I recently added solar and LiFePO4 batteries to the coach. I will be completely retired 6/30/2017, and on 7/1/2017 plan on being crossing into Canada, on the way to Alaska.

Right now I am on a bluff in southern Utah overlooking Monument Valley with the closest neighbor miles away. So far, so good

[trailertraveler]

I thought it was pretty clear in my original post that is not the way we travel.

My intent was not to criticize the way you travel. Sorry if I offended you. I was simply trying to provide another perspective to those who might be trying to decide whether the large investment in solar, etc. would be worth it. That decision is in my opinion one of aesthetic values, where one will camp, and economics.

Yep. I all depends on if someone is interested in cost only for paid camping rather than for the total trip.

My reason for pointing out the actual cost of paid nights, was that it is pretty easy to figure in zeros when doing a budget. Since every trip may not be the same length, in my way of thinking, knowing the average cost per night of campgrounds in an area is more helpful than just total cost figures.

It isn't even worth the expense to install an inverter at a cost of between $800 to $2000 to operate your TV and satellite dish and keep your computers/lap tops charged, or even operate a microwave/toaster/coffee pot, etc.

For short term boondocking, I have found that an auxillary propane heater really extends the battery capability as the RV furnace fan is a huge energy user. At the higher elevations it can get quite cool at night. We have had frost several nights as early as mid August at elevations of 8,000-9,000'. For us, there is no real need to charge the cell phones or computers as there is almost never any service where we boondock. Also, trees generally prevent satellite TV reception, although I do have a 400 watt pure sine wave inverter that will power the satellite receiver and TV which total about 60 watts. Coffee pot is a stove top percolator. Also have an old stove top toaster.

[Al F]

Al

thanks for your original post

Our travelling style is similar to yours, and it is why I recently added solar and LiFePO4 batteries to the coach. I will be completely retired 6/30/2017, and on 7/1/2017 plan on being crossing into Canada, on the way to Alaska.

Right now I am on a bluff in southern Utah overlooking Monument Valley with the closest neighbor miles away. So far, so good

Isn't it great to be out in the middle of nowhere with peace and quiet, knowing you can camp that way for as long as you want. No need to run the generator and yet live the same way you do when you have electric hookups. Absolutely wonderful.

 

About your trip to Alaska in 2017. Take a look at this years "Alaska 2016" topic if you haven't seen it. Lots of good info. In the original post in that topic there are a number of links to blogs with huge amounts of info related to travel to and in Alaska.

[oldjohnt]

Al, I have REALLY enjoyed this post and agree with you 100%

 

"Isn't it great to be out in the middle of nowhere with peace and quiet, knowing you can camp that way for as long as you want. No need to run the generator and yet live the same way you do when you have electric hookups. Absolutely wonderful."

 

With my somewhat smaller setup I don't require as much electrical energy as your rig is capable of storing and delivering. I have found my limiting factor concerning how long I can dry camp before having to move, is NOT electricity, but as you well know ITS WATER AND SEWAGE CAPACITY. I can store 86+ gallons of fresh water and with my Electra Magic Marine Recirculating Toilet we can go approximately 12 to 14 days before we have to dump and take on fresh water and buy groceries, and that's enough at one place anyway lol. All those beautiful scenic quiet BLM and Natl Forest FREE campgrounds are so great PROVIDED you're self contained to the extent we are talking about, but NOT so much otherwise.

 

I'm considering an extended Alaska trip, but we love the West so much and can go there much longer and cheaper and have to drive far less miles versus Alaska so were undecided.

 

Gotta love Solar and Batteries and boondocking

 

John T

[Al F]

Al, I have REALLY enjoyed this post and agree with you 100%

 

"Isn't it great to be out in the middle of nowhere with peace and quiet, knowing you can camp that way for as long as you want. No need to run the generator and yet live the same way you do when you have electric hookups. Absolutely wonderful."

 

With my somewhat smaller setup I don't require as much electrical energy as your rig is capable of storing and delivering. I have found my limiting factor concerning how long I can dry camp before having to move, is NOT electricity, but as you well know ITS WATER AND SEWAGE CAPACITY. I can store 86+ gallons of fresh water and with my Electra Magic Marine Recirculating Toilet we can go approximately 12 to 14 days before we have to dump and take on fresh water and buy groceries, and that's enough at one place anyway lol. All those beautiful scenic quiet BLM and Natl Forest FREE campgrounds are so great PROVIDED you're self contained to the extent we are talking about, but NOT so much otherwise.

 

I'm considering an extended Alaska trip, but we love the West so much and can go there much longer and cheaper and have to drive far less miles versus Alaska so were undecided.

 

Gotta love Solar and Batteries and boondocking

 

John T

An Alaska trip does entail lots of driving. That is why we spent 4 1/2 months on our trip and that was leaving from and returning from a place not far from the Canadian border, the Portland, OR area. We drove the motorhome 8068 miles on this trip. Many travel days were less than 100 miles.

 

I can't imagine what the trip would have been like if we had done this trip in 6-10 weeks. I have read many reports of people doing this trip in that amount of time. Exhausting I'm sure.

 

 

We also drove about 2500 miles from the San Antonio, TX area to Portland and will be returning to San Antonio later this fall.

[trailertraveler]

...I have found my limiting factor concerning how long I can dry camp before having to move, is NOT electricity, but as you well know ITS WATER AND SEWAGE CAPACITY. I can store 86+ gallons of fresh water and with my Electra Magic Marine Recirculating Toilet we can go approximately 12 to 14 days before we have to dump and take on fresh water and buy groceries...

With much smaller tanks and a conventional RV toilet our limit is about 5 days and no amount of solar will change that. The increased capacity for the weight and size of lithium batteries is something that I have been looking at that may help match my electrical capacity to my water/waste capacity.

 

There are some boondockers who purify/treat their own water. Some RV boondockers and those in RVs with no tanks (like many van dwellers), do their dishes outside, shower outside, water the bushes and dig cat scratches. Those are lifestyle changes that we do not want to make.

[oldjohnt]

trailertraveler, its true many of these boondocking decisions have to do with as you say "lifestyle changes" we may or may not want to make. The wife likes her almost homelike creature comforts, hot water and shower and kitchen and bath facilities all inside etc., so I made the necessary modifications that enable us to stay out as long as we can. Still a person finally has to go buy some groceries (plus I'm ready to move on anyway) so we don't really need anymore then a couple weeks capacity, and we seldom even use that much as I get the travel itch that needs scratched. There are occasions where we might take a monthly rate at an RV park in Florida, but no way I could stay in one place 3 to 6 months as many do nor would I buy a permanent site unless maybe I become old and feeble (if I live long enough). We do exhibit at Florida Flywheelers and stay put for 12 + days in one place there.

 

Of course, dry camping isn't so great if its extremely hot, and if that's the case we simply move to higher elevations or head further North.

 

Take care now

 

John T

[Jimalberta]

We boondock a lot as well. The MH holds 125 gallons of fresh water and 40 gallons of propane so we can easily go 2 weeks. I also carry a 45 gallon fresh water bladder and can use it to top up my on board water tank. That stretches us to 3 weeks as the black will last that long. Out weak spot is the grey...it fills up too fast.

I have solar and it generally keeps up but if we spend an evening watching tv and using more lights I will fire up my honda 2000i to keep the batteries at the top. The honda uses such little fuel its not a concern. I always carry gas for my RZR anyways so I have it handy.

[oldjohnt]

Yo JIm, "Our weak spot is the grey...it fills up too fast." I have heard of some "dudes" who if parked over sand or thick foliage all alone and isolated might accidentally

have a grey leak !!!! Yikes

 

That's all I'm sayin

 

John T

[Jimalberta]

John...my grey has possibly had a "leak" or 2 it seems. Lol

[Al F]

With much smaller tanks and a conventional RV toilet our limit is about 5 days and no amount of solar will change that. The increased capacity for the weight and size of lithium batteries is something that I have been looking at that may help match my electrical capacity to my water/waste capacity.

 

There are some boondockers who purify/treat their own water. Some RV boondockers and those in RVs with no tanks (like many van dwellers), do their dishes outside, shower outside, water the bushes and dig cat scratches. Those are lifestyle changes that we do not want to make.

With 5 days water and gray/black tank camping capacity, IF you were of a mind to, taking a trip like we did, 4 1/2 months to Alaska and back, is easily doable w/o looking for or needing to find RV Parks with elect to stay in.

 

I didn't keep track of the number of times we went more than 5 days w/o dumping and taking on water, but I doubt it was more than 4 or 5 times.

 

You probably would need to upgrade your elect system to give you a way to keep your batteries charged and an inverter to power your 120V systems.

 

For us one of the most important parts of being so totally electrically self contained is we have the freedom to park anywhere RV overnight parking is allowed.

 

We can and do travel with making reservations. With staying a places with elect many times you have to make plans and commitments to be somewhere at a specific time. With those commitments it makes it difficult to change your plans. If the weather is bad and you don't want to travel? Well too bad you have to travel or you could forfeit your reservations. Along with that you may not be able to easily visit that area, because all the places with elect hookups are full when you have the time to be there. Or, which happens to us all the time, we just want to stay longer, or leave earlier. Or we learn about someplace we didn't know about and now want to go there before going to where we originally planned to go. Sometimes once we are in the area, we realize we really don't want to go where we planned. No commitments, no need to go. No need to cancel and possibly pay a cancelation fee.

 

But, hey, there are probably hundreds or maybe thousands of RV'ers who travel to Alaska every year, staying in RV parks or places with elect and or full hookups and are very happy with their travels.

 

Then there are the others who set up their RV's and life style to boondock for 2 weeks or more w/o going to dump or get fresh water.

 

Then there are others who would not dream of staying in their RV in places like we have, and we are perfectly content staying there.

 

For example, take a look at this entry in our blog about our stay in Fairbanks, AK. You will need to scroll down toward the bottom to "Fairbanks". We spent a total of 10 or 11 days on 3 different stays in this parking lot during our time in the Fairbanks area. We never felt unsafe or unwanted with this parking place. It wasn't a bargain at $15 a night, but the RV Park options were at least $45 for the places we would consider staying at. We could have stayed at Walmart I suppose. There were a couple of RV's parked at Walmart, w/o being moved, for the entire 17-18 days we were in the area. However, while free, this Walmart is very, very busy and noisy. Not to mention crowded. (We do stay at Walmart's sometimes, but it is far from our favorite place to stay.)

 

This is not to say I find it simple or easy to find the places we stay at. It takes online research. Many times using Google Earth to visually look at a potential place to stay. I look for blogs which stay a places we like and learn from their experiences. It also take some experience to learn just where you will stay, and where you won't stay.

 

On the other hand it is an interesting challenge to find places we are comfortable staying at w/o using RV Parks or places with elect hookups.

 

There is no real right or wrong in methods of travel. Each of us decides what we are comfortable with and what makes us happy.

 

Anyways, that is a lot of words, words, words!

[trailertraveler]

...You probably would need to upgrade your elect system to give you a way to keep your batteries charged and an inverter to power your 120V systems...

 

...We can and do travel with making reservations. With staying a places with elect many times you have to make plans and commitments to be somewhere at a specific time. With those commitments it makes it difficult to change your plans. If the weather is bad and you don't want to travel? Well too bad you have to travel or you could forfeit your reservations...

 

...This is not to say I find it simple or easy to find the places we stay at. It takes online research. Many times using Google Earth to visually look at a potential place to stay. I look for blogs which stay a places we like and learn from their experiences. It also take some experience to learn just where you will stay, and where you won't stay...

I have a Yamaha 2400 that runs on propane or gasoline so charging the batteries is not an issue other than the time it takes to complete a charging cycle. As I said, I am beginning to investigate lithium batteries as a way to get more amp hours for the weight/space. I really do not have space on the tongue for more than the two current T-135s. I have not really looked into what appropriate charger might fit in the space where the current charger is located. The current charger is intergral with the converter and power center.

 

As I said, I have a 400 watt pure sine wave inverter which is rarely used because the places that we boondock/dry camp rarely have cell/internet and trees often prevent satellite reception. We do not have a residential refrigerator, so no need for 120V for that.

 

We rarely make reservations. When we do, it is often the same day or just one or two days in advance. I start watching the weather forecasts a few days before we are planning to move. If I don't like the forecast we just stay put. We only travel 4-5 hours when we move which usually comes out to about 200-250 miles. We don't stay at Walmarts or other parking lots, because we don't want to spend 18 hours or more in a parking lot. We also like to investigate the areas where we stop. We have stopped for what we thought would be one night and stayed a week on more than one occasion. There are many Forest Service, BLM, Corps of Engineers and state parks that are first come first serve or have some first come first serve sites. The responsible offices usually have a very good idea of whether spaces are available. State fishing lakes, wildlife management areas and water management districts often have designated camping areas that are empty during the week. We try to stay off the interstates whenever possible and have found that camping is permitted in many small town city parks. Most do not take reservations.

 

I use Google Earth a lot, but have trouble judging the actual conditions of gravel and dirt roads. When I had a low profile truck camper, I could access many places that I considered in the middle of nowhere. When I got a 27' Class C, I found that height, ground clearance and the rear overhang prevented me from going many places I had gone with the truck camper. I drug the tail of the Class C crossing ruts, ditches and washes on BLM, Forest Service, and county gravel roads more times than I can remember and was fortunate to never do serious damage. The ground clearance and the angle of attack that the current rig can handle is even more restrictive. Then there is the issue of restrictions on roadside vehicle camping on Forest Service lands. I have dozens of folders full of pdf files of the Motor Vehicle Use Maps and Travel Maps which for some Forests change every year. Sometimes it is just easier to go to one of their designated campgrounds.