noteven Posted June 25, 2016 Report Share Posted June 25, 2016 Here is some light reading on air springs. The polytropic process (p. 5) .... http://firestoneip.com/-/media/www/fsip/files/CommTruckTrailer/Aftermarket/AirideDG.pdf More info here: http://firestoneip.com/commercial-truck-trailer-oem "Are we there yet?" asked no motorcycle rider, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrap Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Don't give up though! You've got a SmartValve on the data bus controlling your axle...................... Code it to revert to "normal leveling" (or at creep limit) upon an active ATC message under a certain speed threshold or something. Or code a slight pressure ramp that attempts to add weight (but under your ceiling) to match drive wheel speed signals together above that speed threshold. So many possibilities.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollytrolley Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Don't give up though! You've got a SmartValve on the data bus controlling your axle...................... Code it to revert to "normal leveling" (or at creep limit) upon an active ATC message under a certain speed threshold or something. Or code a slight pressure ramp that attempts to add weight (but under your ceiling) to match drive wheel speed signals together above that speed threshold. So many possibilities.... And then......Capt. Kirk commands Scotty to bring her up to waarp 7.739 and engage thecyclo-maxidine-glactozoro-gloker-stopper and the windwasher will run for just long enough smear the bugs around enough to repell the Dr.Pepper vapors from the Red-V-Machine ahead...... Scrap...... How can a dummy like me made it this far without one (or more) of these SMARTvalves.......... Drive on.........(what program do we have uploaded into the .........VaLvE??) 97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrknrvr Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Since this subject started I have seen thirty or more trucks with just the outer wheel on a standard axle. Most the trucks that I have seen with only the outer wheel on are company trucks. If you ask at the local truck repair shops they look at with deer eyes. What do you mean you cannot run just the outer wheel. Just like you cannot put veggie oil in you diesel fuel. Now that is a different subject all to its own Bad Bad. Vern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety3 Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Since this subject started I have seen thirty or more trucks with just the outer wheel on a standard axle. Most the trucks that I have seen with only the outer wheel on are company trucks. If you ask at the local truck repair shops they look at with deer eyes. What do you mean you cannot run just the outer wheel. Just like you cannot put veggie oil in you diesel fuel. Now that is a different subject all to its own Bad Bad. Vern A crook can walk into a store and steal stuff...doesn't mean it's legal. Define what you mean by "standard axle". Are you certain that no modifications were made to adjust the weight distribution between axles? Have you checked the per-axle weights on any such rigs (including your own) to see if the tires are overloaded? While you're there, have you compared the per-tire loadings to see if they're similar between the axles? RandyA said it clear as day: he saw distinctly higher tire wear on the 2-tire axle compared to the 4-tire axle. The inner tires are NOT redundant. Sure, when empty, your tires are loaded <50% and therefore there's a "spare", but when loaded to 80k (something the HDT crowd is generally unlikely to do), a tire failure is a stop-as-soon-as-practical scenario. There's also a weight per inch of tread width regulation, You can't get an axle to 17k load with "normal" tires...you need an extra-wide tire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety3 Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 Don't give up though! You've got a SmartValve on the data bus controlling your axle...................... Code it to revert to "normal leveling" (or at creep limit) upon an active ATC message under a certain speed threshold or something. Or code a slight pressure ramp that attempts to add weight (but under your ceiling) to match drive wheel speed signals together above that speed threshold. So many possibilities.... How much Hadley stock do you have? I'm convinced that this whole puzzle comes down to a few basic solutions if you're going to scrap two tires: find a proportioning valve and inflate the 2-tire axle to 50% of the 4-tire axle, use a regulator to send a preset pressure to the 2-tire axle (which will put boundaries on how light/heavy you can go), or undergo the challenge of singling long or shot then use a properly-designed tag axle to give you the weight-bearing options you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big5er Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Since this subject started I have seen thirty or more trucks with just the outer wheel on a standard axle. Most the trucks that I have seen with only the outer wheel on are company trucks. I am just curious how you KNOW it is a standard axle. I see tag axles all the time with a single wheel on them, but they are different than the other axles on the truck. In my state you do not see "wheels removed" from an axle, since it is illegal. You see axles designed for single wheels. Vern, I'm not accusing but just asking, are you sure you are seeing what you think you are seeing? MY PEOPLE SKILLS ARE JUST FINE.~It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work.~ 2005 Volvo 780 VED12 465hp / Freedomline transmission singled mid position / Bed by Larry Herrin2018 customed Mobile Suites 40KSSB3 2014 smart Fortwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve from SoCal Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 I was in Wichita yesterday and saw a bottom dump with single tires on a tandem bogie, didn't look like highway super singles,more like front tires on a mixer. I just saw it briefly as it was exiting a freeway. Steve 2005 Peterbilt 387-112 Baby Cat 9 speed U-shift 1996/2016 remod Teton Royal Atlanta 1996 Kentucky 48 single drop stacker garage project Pulls like a train, sounds like a plane....faster than a Cheetah sniffin cocaine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrknrvr Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 This would a good subject for the national rally. I will find the the local DOT scale guy when I see him and get his thoughts on this subject. He has several locations to work at and I only travel by a few of his sites while working. So it may be awhile but I will find him. But I will ask him. Also a stop at local Montana hwy patrol is just a few miles away so I will check in there also. Now Peety3 would you remove the rear wheels and brake drum from you HDT. Then you could see where the wheel bearing s are actually located. If you jack the rear axle high enough to put some plywood on the ground under the dual tires. Then put some round steel rods on top of the plywood, maybe 1/2" or a little bigger in diameter. Then another plywood layer on top of the steel rods. Then if you let the tires down just enough to take the weight of the wheel assembly. Romove the drive axle form the rear end and the nuts and locking mechanism. At that point you can slide both wheels, hub and brake drums off altogether off the axle fairly easy. Unless there is a ridge from the brake shoes then just bake the slack adjust off some . If I was not busy at work I would do it and have another person on the forum document it and post pictures. There are several HDT guys I'm my area so I will see if I could find someone to document where the bearings are on the standard axle. safe Travels, Vern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorts Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Vern, instead if 2 pieces of plywood and steel rods try a piece of sheet metal or formica on the smooth solid base and a handful od Murphy's oil soap to make a grease board to slide the tire brake assembly on and off. Any lube will work on a hard surface but the soap cleans up with water and has no detrimental effect on the tires, scrape up the oil grease and save it for reuse, the tin can be hosed off or rolled up for storage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrknrvr Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Most of my work has not been in a shop. But rather in the water well, oil well or farming so that is where I learned how to do thing with not the best conditions. Anyway you can find will help with the job at hand. If your in a shop you might be lucky enough to have the regular lift to remove the whole assembly in one piece. I have done it that way a few times. In a few weeks there will be someone near by that can help with pictures that is on the forum. So stay tuned for this subject to continue with better documentation. Better info from Montana state police and a Dot officer as well. If we get a rainy period that I do not have to work then I will take pictures at several local shops of different axle assemblies. So stay tuned, Vern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrap Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 What Vern is trying to show is that it is all bridge law stuff that we can do in the NW. You see them everywhere up here. What hauls our wood chips [look at his short pin inset and how far forward of bogie it is on the tractor to make inner bridge - the 4th trailer axle needs to push a little bit of weight up to it]. Western Trailers builds it this way: What hauls our Coke, Pepsi, and Budweiser: https://www.flickr.com/photos/truckexposure/23485229244 What hauls our concrete dust up from Portland: https://www.flickr.com/photos/truckexposure/24087395436/in/photostream/ While that last ugly truck [ ] is pushing it, Beall sells the pneumatic doubles new with certain axles with outboard singles. They need the outboard stability for that short tall trailer (the empty pup gets flopped over every time they get cut off around here) and they need the weight savings. I'm sure you can contact Beall to get a bridge sheet showing axle ratings or proposed bridge layout. With a P (trailer) spindle you are still good to 11K, which most of the time is more than you need to transfer weight around to make bridge. Again, they are totally legit. But do note that all the trucks above with their outboards are dedicated loads and are trucks purpose built for the contract. They didn't just happen to forget to put a couple of wheels back on the trailer. And again, a HDT is totally legit at 9000lbs per axle with a single outset wheel. You can run single outset under 18K on the rear end all day long. All Peety is trying to do is come up with a way to get it up to 37K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrknrvr Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Thanks Srap for that info. I see both of those around hear a lot. If you look at what I would say is a factory built singe tire axle the outer wheel hub is much smaller than one with a drive axle in it. So the bearing is smaller in diameter. But there quit a few trucks and trailers around Montana that has the full size bearings on the out side. Yes there are single tired axles that really look like steer axles also. Yesterday I spotted a short Sysco food trailer with just outer tires on the outside. I better start looking to make sure what axle assembly they have as to whether the outer bearing is large or small. Off to work at 6:30 as some RVers need fixed today. Safe Travels, Vern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgiaHybrid Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 We always used a piece of 3/4 ply and a bucket of old golf balls from the driving range. As long as you have a hard surface under the golf balls, you are good to go. By the way, the reason you bolt a gun safe down to the floor from the inside is to prevent a thief from leaving with your safe and contents the easy way. I have moved 2,000 safes by myself using golf balls. Just feed the ones that roll out from under the plywood to the other side. 2017 Kenworth T6802015 DRV 38RSSA Elite Suites2016 Smart Prime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorts Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 All of those weird axle combinations for bridges out west, while here in Michigan they just stuff 10 axles plus a steer under the trucks and destroy the roads. I see a lot of Michigan trains (wiggle wagons) in the dump trucks, 10 wheel tractors with 20k steers, tri axle trailer, tandem dolly and tri axle trailer combo's. another popular combo is quad dump truck with a tri/tri pup wagon. I can't help but think that the 8 axle trailers with 3 lift axles do the most damage when they lift 3 axles to turn a corner do the most damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety3 Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 This would a good subject for the national rally. I will find the the local DOT scale guy when I see him and get his thoughts on this subject. He has several locations to work at and I only travel by a few of his sites while working. So it may be awhile but I will find him. But I will ask him. Also a stop at local Montana hwy patrol is just a few miles away so I will check in there also. Now Peety3 would you remove the rear wheels and brake drum from you HDT. Then you could see where the wheel bearing s are actually located. Vern, I could care less about bearing wear - that's not my cause for concern. I'm focused on legal tire loading, because unless you ALTER your suspension one way or another, taking 25% of the 8 tires away lowers your load capacity by 50%. If you're going to cut your load capacity by 50%, why not ditch an axle completely? If you remove 2 of the 8 tires and load your drive set above 17k (thinking you actually had 25.5k capacity with an 8.5k axle and a 17k axle that you could use to their full extent), it's a recipe for disaster. Even if you do stay under 17k drive set weight, you're going to wear the solo tires faster than the duals, and have higher tire temps on the solo tires. Back when I first discovered this forum, I diligently went through all of the forum archives, and I think YOU posted about removing two tires (I could be wrong). I saw it, thought about it, realized that a 25% tire discount created a 50% capacity discount, and PMed the original poster of that thread). If it was you, check your PM bin here and you'll see something from me months ago, saying exactly the same thing: if you didn't alter your suspension, you're overloading those two tires who don't have adjacent "friends". None of this focuses on the bearings. I'm sure they feel left out. As Scrap has pointed out, several scenarios exist where outer singles or simply just singles was deemed best for bridge laws....presumably none of the HDT crowd are overly concerned about bridge laws given typical HDT weights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety3 Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 What Vern is trying to show is that it is all bridge law stuff that we can do in the NW. You see them everywhere up here. What hauls our wood chips [look at his short pin inset and how far forward of bogie it is on the tractor to make inner bridge - the 4th trailer axle needs to push a little bit of weight up to it]. WesternAnd again, a HDT is totally legit at 9000lbs per axle with a single outset wheel. You can run single outset under 18K on the rear end all day long. All Peety is trying to do is come up with a way to get it up to 37K. Check the TIRE ratings...you're not going to find a "classic single" (i.e. non-SUPER-single width) tire up to 18k load on the axle. 12k, maybe, 18k, no. http://www.michelintruck.com/tires-and-retreads/selector/#!/info/x-line-energy-z as just one example. Follow that with the FACT of simple physics that the air suspension leveling valve puts the same pressure in both sets of air bags, and both air bags are the same diameter (unless you've altered the suspension), and that means the load on axle 1 EQUALS the load on axle 2. Load the drivers up to 24k, and you'll find that the singled tire is carrying 6000 pounds per tire/12000 pounds per axle (i.e. 100% capacity) while the dual tires are carrying 3000 pounds per tire/12000 pounds per axle. Notice the difference in per-tire loading. This also means that the drive set is now limited by tires to 24k (or 4x the individual tire capacity, not 6x). Sure, that's more than a 20k legal-limit single axle, but it seems silly to take a tandem set that was legal to 34k, remove two tires, and suddenly be in a position where there's only 4k additional capacity over a single axle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrap Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 I meant 9K per axle, equalized 18K tandem. That's it, thats all you can do on drive axle spindles, that has been the point and the warning all along. You put single tires on just one axle you are still no more than 18K overall in the whole arse end. If that got lost in all the other stuff we need to make sure that is clear to anyone trying it. I meant non equalized, pressure controlled, the dualed axle does 26K (motorhome exemption, and whatever tires motorhome uses) and the single tired pressure controlled axle does 9K. Your pneumatic plan is fine, easily purchased, and is pretty much how the down pressure is done on any lift axle truck today. Sure it'll wear funny, skid and spin, but so does any lift axle truck today. For anyone attempting, be sure to move ABS sensors and spring brakes to the correct axle. I meant HDT as RV truck. Suppose I should note that all my posts mean that. Vern, the trailer P hub is the "big hub", straight spindle with both bearings the same. I wouldn't say it is rare, it just isn't the standard on your everyday 2 axle dual tired van trailer. Trailer N is the tapered spindle smaller outer bearings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrknrvr Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 I run 4 outer wheels only. 6610 lbs weight rating per tire. I needed the length to haul a vehicle on the deck as short as possible. Never thought of running 4 on one axle and 2 on the other. Just for something else I have driven. And this was manufactured by Ingersol rand. T4 drill rig with 10:00 20 tires back in 1975. It weighed in around 75000 lbs, with a over weight front axle. Did try to miss scales as much as possible. They just bolted the rear axles to the frame. That got your attention when driving it. And a little top heavy also. Safe travels, Vern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.