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Low Voltage on One Leg - Thanks PI EMS-PT50C


Kevin H

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Geeeeeeeeeee Kirk, I'm NOT messing with you lol

 

Its like I posted to you before, the world is full of Billy Bobs and Bubbas and their brother in law who wired their own garage while downing a case of beer and by golly it works fine and they are experts who know more then electricians and the NEC is a piece of crap YOU JUST CANT FIX STUPID LOL

 

 

John T

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That was more than 10 years ago so I wonder if he still remembers me? :rolleyes:

Probably does, since you cost him money. I've found there are two general classes of private campground owners (as opposed to public parks like national parks, COE, etc). Those that are as cheap as can be and rarely make improvements, and those that want to do things right, and are willing to improve and fix things. There does not seem to be much in between, based on my personal experience. I've worked for both. My experience with the "cheap" ones is that you have very little equipment on-site and what you have is terrible. So now one of OUR interview questions concerns all the equipment, it's age and state of repair, etc. I use my own tools, so that aspect is a wash for me....

 

I also ask them specifically about their infrastructure and state of repair, etc. If they expect me to rewire their park for them then that is not a workamper job and they are not going to pay me workamper rates for it. :)

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Just had to comment on one of Jack's observation I agree with. I have been to a ton of Army Corps of Engineers (COE) Campgrounds and they seem to have EXCELLENT electrical as well as other facilities. One reason I see having designed for both the private sector and federal government, IS ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. When designing using other peoples money (us taxpayers) my bosses or the bean counters had no problem with a good high quality yet more expensive electrical distribution system. However, a private owner might prefer less expensive yet still NEC minimum compliant designs. I couldn't in good conscience or professionalism design at any less then NEC minimum standards, but for the paying customer and my boss in those cases my hands were sort of tied. Its my professional opinion, its not so much the NEC isn't adequate or accurate, its more that some engineers or electricians DONT FOLLOW IT FULLY because they don't take the extra steps regarding maximum allowable VOLTAGE DROP. Once you calculate the load and size the conductors and overcurrent protection you're MOSTLY done and its "sort of" NEC compliant, BUT IF YOU TAKE THE EXTRA STEP AND CALCULATE VOLTAGE DROP you may well end up having to increase conductor size, and that's more copper and much more money private owners may be hesitant to spend. As an experienced RV park user I would make my design calculations BASED ON 100% OCCUPANCY AND ASSUME 50 AMP USERS ARE DRAWING 40 AMPS AND 30 AMP USERS 24 AMPS,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,But if I do that and then finish it off with voltage drop calculations WERE TALKIN A LOT BIGGER MORE EXPENSIVE COPPER WIRE which the US Government is willing to pay (its not their money its ours lol) but a private owner isn't. ITS MY OPINION THATS WHY SO MANY PARKS HAVE ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS. Their designs were inadequate and cheaper, perhaps not designed for 100% occupancy or not designed assuming users are drawing anywhere near max loads. If I designed a system for 100% occupancy on a hot summer day with all the AC's running and users drawing 80% capacity, IT WOULD BE VERY EXPENSIVE but by golly I bet it would work great if an owner was willing to pay????????????? So many older parks that were designed in the 60's to 80's or earlier just cant supply the electrical service for todays RVers and if they see what my upgrade may cost THEY MAY LOOSE THEIR MINDS...........Dont blame me now lol

 

Nuff said, John T

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John, if you use the NEC factors for campgrounds you will have a safe system. With low voltage in many situations, as you describe. The NEC is a SAFETY guideline...not a performance guideline. As you know - but many others do not. :)

Jack & Danielle Mayer #60376 Lifetime Member
Living on the road since 2000

PLEASE no PM's. Email me. jackdanmayer AT gmail
2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it)
2022 New Horizons 43' 5er
2016 Itasca 27N 28' motorhome 
2019 Volvo 860, D13 455/1850, 236" wb, I-Shift, battery-based APU
No truck at the moment - we use one of our demo units
2016 smart Passion, piggyback on the truck
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
See our website for info on New Horizons 5th wheels, HDTs as tow vehicles, communications on the road, and use of solar power
www.jackdanmayer.com
Principal in RVH Lifestyles. RVH-Lifestyles.com

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I agree Jack, back in "the day" I used to attend the three year NEC update seminars where experts like Joe McPartland or Mike Holt served as instructors, where we were reminded the NEC is part of the NFPA and the reason most sections are in place IS BECAUSE A BUILDING BURNED DOWN OR SOMEONE WAS ELECTROCUTED. Wow those guys could cite NEC Sections and Sub Sections and could recite the NEC from memory, and they were also on the board as I recall. I still say (Attorney and past EE) reading and interpreting the NEC with all its back references and exceptions and sections and sub sections (you cant find many stand alone single uninterrupted sentences) is more difficult then most legal statutes.

 

YES ITS MAIN CONCERN IS INDEED LIFE SAFETY AND PROTECTION OF PROPERTY (I still liked to consider performance if the owner was willing to pay)

 

I'm rusty on all this and miss it, but still love to 'talk the talk" with yall, makes me want to run out and shine and polish all my RV plug blades and terminals lol

 

John T It may be early, but being the Politically Incorrect person I am, MERRY CHRISTMAS

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Kevin, you starter your post on the 24, with the caveat of saying guess I'ii talk to the CG Mgnt. Your next post was on the 25 and 26. So, what did the CG Mgnt have to say?

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Kevin, you starter your post on the 24, with the caveat of saying guess I'ii talk to the CG Mgnt. Your next post was on the 25 and 26. So, what did the CG Mgnt have to say?

Welllll. Outta sight, outta mind. I did not get with him over the holiday. The problem did not recur. Frankly, I forgot about it. In retrospect, I think it must have been an issue with heavy draw of electric heaters. The nights affected were in the upper 20's and it warmed up since then. Interestingly, the rv that was next to us has moved on. Don't know how a single unit could create a downline situation but who knows??? This is the third time I have stayed in this park for two months at a time. Never had a problem.

The richest are not those who have the most, but those who need the least.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Does an autoformer help in these low voltage situations and why are the prohibited in some parks...

The device does what it says that it will, up to the limits that the manufacturer lists in their specs. But it don't fix campground power supply issues and I'm not sure just how it would react to one leg being low. It isn't uncommon for there to be some difference between the two phases so there might be some limit to how different they might be.

 

As to being prohibited, that mostly comes from the fact that many park managers do not really understand how electricity works. When a device boosts voltage, it does so by drawing more current, which some of them feel is stealing power from other campers. That really makes no sense at all because the power pedestal in all properly wired ones have a circuit breaker that limits the current to either 30A or 50A according to what it is supposed to supply, and no more. That means that it simply isn't possible for any device to take power from other customers, if the system has the power needed to supply everyone.

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
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3huskies, just a bit more regarding your question and Kirks good response.

 

There are other manufacturers and methods, but Hughes make RV Autotransformers for 30 amp and 50 amp.

 

30 Amp Autotransformer: http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-power-cords/30-amp-autoformer.htm

 

50 Amp Autotransformer: https://hughesautoformers.com/product/50-amp-12000-watt/

 

They can provide an automatic 10% boost when needed. As far as an RV park not allowing them, it may be as Kirk suggested they are ignorant as to how they function. First of all they do not create or destroy any energy, and actually waste some in heat losses IE you get less "electrical" energy out then you put in as some energy is converted to heat. When you pay for the energy you use, its metered BEFORE the autotransformer and if you're using one you're paying for the electrical PLUS heat energy so why should they complain????????? you're still paying what's used out of the pedestal even if some is electrical and some is heat. Its true if you use the transformer to raise the pedestal voltage you use more energy (electrical plus additional heat losses) then you would otherwise, but you're still paying for it. Volts x Amps x Time IN = Volts X Amps X Time PLUS Heat OUT, no energy was created or destroyed, only its form (electrical to heat).

 

John T Leaving for Florida in 3 hrs woooooooooo hooooooooooooo

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Well, this is interesting. It has gotten cold here and the power began cutting out with the low voltage on line 2 error code again. I am in a different spot from where I was at the beginning. All works fine when the temps are 50+. I wonder to myself, perhaps when everyone is using electric heaters problems come up?


I took my meter and checked the lines: Line 1 - 120 - 123 after multiple checks. Line 2 - 119 - 121 after multiple checks.

Plugged in the EMS - Display reads: Line 120-123, Line 2 - 107 - 109 after multiple unplugs/replugs and multiple cycles through its checks.

I plugged in the EMS and got the same difference in voltages by checking the EMS plug prongs with my meter and reading the EMS display.


Looks like I have a problem with the EMS. More interesting, it appears to be temperature dependent. (???) I am contacting Progressive ASAP, Right now I am running without protection - not very comfortable with that but whatcha' gonna' do???


I'll let you know what Progressive says...

The richest are not those who have the most, but those who need the least.

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I took my meter and checked the lines: Line 1 - 120 - 123 after multiple checks. Line 2 - 119 - 121 after multiple checks.

Plugged in the EMS - Display reads: Line 120-123, Line 2 - 107 - 109 after multiple unplugs/replugs and multiple cycles through its checks.
I plugged in the EMS and got the same difference in voltages by checking the EMS plug prongs with my meter and reading the EMS display.
Looks like I have a problem with the EMS. More interesting, it appears to be temperature dependent.

Now that is a new problem to me. I don't know what else you can do but run without it, but as long as you don't have anything using an ac electric motor you should be fine. And no lightning storms around........ the risk is minimal.

Good travelin !...............Kirk

Full-time 11+ years...... Now seasonal travelers.
Kirk & Pam's Great RV Adventure

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I talked to a PI rep. He walked me through a detailed diagnosis process at the pedestal. When we hooked to 30 amps and got concurrent readings he concluded that the device is most likely working properly.


More info - the 50amp recepticle is broken. You've all seen them, the bakelite/plastic is broken at the top. The face moves away from the metal slots so it was a booger getting the tester prongs in. That makes me and the rep wonder about a loose connection. Rich above may be onto something.


At the moment we are on 30amps with no problems. As soon as I can get with the owner we'll see what happens.

The richest are not those who have the most, but those who need the least.

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Does an autoformer help in these low voltage situations and why are the prohibited in some parks...

 

Oh yeah.

 

After opening our presents this Christmas morning, the Mrs & I were on our computers -- she was emailing and I was watching the music video Chocolate Disco.

 

Then our neighbor in the park model next to ours began banging on our wall. Almost immediately my video (and my computer) died along with my wife's.

 

We went outside to see smoke pouring out of the top of our power pedestal -- many, many bad thoughts at that moment.

 

Long story short . . . one of the power legs to our park model's power pedestal shorted out at the base of the pedestal. So as that leg shorted and went resistive, smoke from its arcing went up the power pedestal "chimney". I thought our breakers were smoking, but after opening all of them, the smoke kept a'coming. Finally the smoke stopped as the leg opened completely.

 

Campground service had us up and running in an hour. More info here with advice about dumping salt water.

 

Anyway, we had our TRCI voltage regulator connected between the power pedestal and our park model the entire time. Though it tried to maintain voltage on both legs, when the voltage dropped below 90V on that one leg the TRCI stop boosting and let nature take over. No damage to the regulator.

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Did you hear the one about the dog with a bad leg named Bob?

 

No, what's the name of his other leg?

 

 

I'm sorry.... this witz kept coming back in my head..... I can't help myself. And certainly not directed at anyone on this forum named Robert, Bob..... or Fred..... :rolleyes:

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