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UVW vs GVWR


rockfish2001

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I will be retired by the end of this year, and want to get a NuWa Discover America. The problem is my 2001 Dodge 2500HD diesel is only rated for 13200#, and 2170# payload. I know the previous owner of the truck, and he had the snow plow package. I have owned the truck for 10 years, and it's well maintained, with the best brakes, upgraded towing turbo, and South Bend towing clutch for my 6 spd. We usually buy food when we get where we are going, and leave all tanks empty. If I keep it to about a 1000# of added items I'll be within my capacity, added to the UVW. Would this be a problem towing from Md to Florida? Am I looking at something wrong? I want to get a used NuWa probably from Kansas RV. It could be a couple years before I get a newer 1 ton truck.

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If the numbers you present are accurate, and you want to stay within those numbers, you will not be able to tow a NuWa DA fifth wheel.

 

By the time you fill your diesel tank, add a fifth wheel hitch, the driver and/or passenger weight, your remaining payload will be less than 1500 lbs. That is well below the 2500 to 3000 lb. pin weight of the NuWa.

 

JMO

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A 3/4 ton truck can tow a HH trailer, BUT it needs to be within the trucks weight limits. Load the truck up as for travel with the 5er hitch , full fuel, passengers and cargo and get it weighed, both front and back axle weights.

 

In the owners manual you will find a GCWR (gross combined weight rating) for the truck. On the drivers door janb, there is a sticker listing the trucks GVWR and axle GAWR (gross axle weight rating).

 

Now do some simple math.

 

GCWR - loaded truck = maximum loaded trailer weight you can tow within ratings.

 

GVWR - loaded truck = maximum loaded trailer pin weight.

 

According to the truck manufacturer, you are not supposed to exceed any of the trucks ratings. That is you do get to pick and choose which ratings you want to meet or exceed.

 

On a HH, the loaded pin weight of the trailer will be about 20% of the trailers GCWR.

 

A 3/4 ton diesel truck is very capable of of pulling a HH 5er, but your limiting factor will be the GVWR and rear axle GAWR. They do not have the weight carrying capability of the 1 ton and especially the one ton dual rear wheel trucks.

 

You will see plenty of folks pulling more trailer than a 3/4 ton is rated to pull and most do not have a clue as to the weight they are pulling. They add air springs to prop up the rear axle.

 

The UVW (unloaded vehicle weight) is a guesstimate of the dry weight of the trailer and does not include any item listed as an option. These unincluded options include things like the A/C, microwave, batteries, awning, television and certainly not you food, clothes, fresh water and propane. The difference between unloaded and load weights can run 500# and up to 1000# or more.

 

So my suggestion is to weigh your truck and see where you are on weight limits. Then only you can make the decision of how comfortable you will be exceeding the truck manufacturers weight limits.

 

The folks at Kansas RV are super to work wiht and they do have some great used HH trailers there.

 

Ken

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ute

...remaining payload will be less than 1500 lbs. That is well below the 2500 to 3000 lb. pin weight of the NuWa.

 

X2. Pin weight alone put's you right at capacity. Not even considering passengers, fuel and a hitch in your TV, it's not very realistic to stay under 1000lbs of additional items. You'll have a lot of weight in pretty much mandatory items that will eat that up in a heartbeat. Even with a very minimal load out you'll probably find yourself a good 2k+ over.

 

I would wait until you have your 1 ton or go with a TT for now to keep your TV's CC available. JMHO

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Well, I checked on the door frame, and GVWR is 8800, curb weight is 6628, GAWR front 5208, and rear 6084. Does this mean that I can carry more pin weight? GVWR is 20,000#. For that year the 3500 has the same towing capacity, and mine does have the heavier overload springs with the snow plow package. tires are Michelin 265/70R17 load E for 3195#capacity. 6084# for the rear seems like it should carry more than 2170#, or am I looking at it wrong?

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We towed a fiver with our F250 that was 200 pounds under our maximum combined weight, the rear axle weight was even closer with full fuel tanks. It was not fun to drive as it was very slow to accelerate making on-ramps really stressful and performance on hills left us way under the usual traffic speeds. Braking was marginal even with the trailer brakes cranked up as high as they would go without sliding the tires.

 

For your planned drive that you will hopefully pick a flat route for you should be able to do it if you can get your weight under the trucks's limit and adjust your driving to compensate for the starting and stopping limitations.

 

We poured a pile of money into our truck trying to reduce the stress levels on us, at least to the point the wife would drive it, not something I'd recommend aside from one thing we tried. We had a big problem with sagging, with the fiver on the back the rear axle settled well down on the factory helper springs which aside from putting the headlights way up off the road probably wasn't doing a lot of good for the drive-line alignment. A good set of air-springs goes on in an afternoon as a do-it-yourself project and makes a world of difference but will not increase your weight ratings, just your comfort.

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Well, I checked on the door frame, and GVWR is 8800, curb weight is 6628, GAWR front 5208, and rear 6084. Does this mean that I can carry more pin weight? GVWR is 20,000#. For that year the 3500 has the same towing capacity, and mine does have the heavier overload springs with the snow plow package. tires are Michelin 265/70R17 load E for 3195#capacity. 6084# for the rear seems like it should carry more than 2170#, or am I looking at it wrong?

 

No. Ideally you would not want to exceed 'any' of the individual ratings. Ie., your rear axle is rated for 6084. Carrying a heavy load in the rear going down bumpy roads will create a much greater 'load' on the axle than a heavy load at rest, so higher axle capacities are necessary, but doesn't translate into higher payload capacities no matter how much one might want them to.

 

That's why most folks try to stay within 80% of max tow capacities and always recommend taking your rig in for weighing before even considering how much you can 'actually' tow safely. I would guarantee you that if you take your rig in to be weighed, your curb weight 'won't' be 6628 . It's not always how much you're rig is capable of moving.. it's the stopping and control part that's the kicker. A lot of people tow over max, but if you've ever seen a 5er or TT fishtailing, whipping the TV around and flipping on the highway you might consider downsizing your expectations.

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I think you are in trouble if you want to stay within the trucks specs plus a safety margin. Based on your numbers:

 

3/4T GVWR = 8800 pounds

curb wt = 6628 pounds

carrying wt = 2172 pounds

 

I doubt the curb weight includes passengers, full fuel tank. truck options and fifth wheel hitch. All will reduce the payload capacity.

 

Our HH weights 16,900 pounds with a pin weight of 3,600 pounds; we have it weighted every couple years. (The NuWa pin weight document spec is only 2,500 pounds so you see it can be much more than the empty HH.) A 1T truck (especially dually) will have a much higher payload capacity than the 3/4T truck. Just because yours has the snow plow prep package and heavy springs (which reduce payload capacity due to their weight!) these options will not increase the trucks capacity. Disc brakes on the fifth wheel is a great option. Greg

 

ps.....we have been living in our HH since early 2007 and are very happy with it, good fifth wheel.

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Well, I checked on the door frame, and GVWR is 8800, curb weight is 6628, GAWR front 5208, and rear 6084. Does this mean that I can carry more pin weight? GVWR is 20,000#. For that year the 3500 has the same towing capacity, and mine does have the heavier overload springs with the snow plow package. tires are Michelin 265/70R17 load E for 3195#capacity. 6084# for the rear seems like it should carry more than 2170#, or am I looking at it wrong?

 

 

i think you meant a GCWR of 20,000#....GVWR is only 8800#....5er I just got rid of had a GVW of 16950#, loaded at heaviest to 16,440#...pin weight of 3460#. You're pushing the limits of a 2500 with that heavy of a 5er...Most don't use trucks GVWR anymore, (though I do), but use the RAWR (rear axle weight rating) to get THE MOST they can out of cargo carrying capacity of their truck....BUT, I don't like pushing weight limits when it comes to safety and family..I believe you could go WELL over your trucks GCWR.

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Most don't use trucks GVWR anymore, (though I do), but use the RAWR (rear axle weight rating) to get THE MOST they can out of cargo carrying capacity of their truck.

 

I would, respectfully, 'completely' disagree. I can see a truck or RV dealer trying to feed that line of bull to someone that doesn't know any better, but I would hope that common sense would prevail.

 

I don't know of one single person that calculates towing and cargo capacity based on RAWR. Maybe I'm sheltered, but it sure sounds like a recipe for disaster.. or at least a new drive train every 10,000 miles. :lol:

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I would, respectfully, 'completely' disagree. I can see a truck or RV dealer trying to feed that line of bull to someone that doesn't know any better, but I would hope that common sense would prevail.

 

I don't know of one single person that calculates towing and cargo capacity based on RAWR. Maybe I'm sheltered, but it sure sounds like a recipe for disaster.. or at least a new drive train every 10,000 miles. :lol:

 

Yes,, you've led a sheltered life... I personally believe in running under tow vehicles GVWR and GCWR...You go to rv.net, cummins forum, and numerous other tow vehicle and rv forums and you'll find if one preaches using GVWR, most of the time, they'll be deemed the "weight police", as I've been "lovingly" called numerous times.

 

...You don't know very many people using RAWR?? Go to RV,net and start a tread either in TV or 5er forum and entitle it, GVWR or RAWR? Tell them NC Hauler told you this...get back to me and tell me what has been said...you will have been, "enlightened"...

 

AGAIN...didn't say "I" agreed with it, but there sure are a whole lot of those that do.. Most laws governing weight ratings in most states deal with tire weight ratings which cover RAWR, NOT GVWR.

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X2

 

Ken

Ken, you and I agree....BUT, what I stated was true as to how quite a few people deal with weights. I don't pass judgement or think I'm smarter than others on this topic...I've been called more names than Carter has liver pills when discussing not going over one's GVWR or their GCWR.....I've alway's matched what I'm towing with what I'm going to tow with.....To me, this is the common sense thing to do and I don't have to worry about it or have to try to justify with others. I err to the side of safety... Start forming "cliques", or thinking one group is better than another doesn't produce productive discussions....Sorta sounds like I'm not worthy to be on the Escapee's forum....I don't "bring anything to the table" that is "value added"...I apologize for having posted.

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Well, I checked on the door frame, and GVWR is 8800, curb weight is 6628, GAWR front 5208, and rear 6084. Does this mean that I can carry more pin weight? GVWR is 20,000#. For that year the 3500 has the same towing capacity, and mine does have the heavier overload springs with the snow plow package. tires are Michelin 265/70R17 load E for 3195#capacity. 6084# for the rear seems like it should carry more than 2170#, or am I looking at it wrong?

Rockfish - Speaking of your rear axle load, with your camper loaded and hooked up, go to most truck stop scales and for $10 the scale receipt will show weights on the individual axles. If any axle is overloaded over the GAWR then find a way to lose weight. For example if the truck rear axle is over loaded, you can remove the pickup box and run a bare frame w/hitch. This is what a lot of the RV transporters do that deliver from factory to the dealers. Might be a short term solution until a bigger truck arrives.

Greg

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Ken, you and I agree....BUT, what I stated was true as to how quite a few people deal with weights. I don't pass judgement or think I'm smarter than others on this topic...I've been called more names than Carter has liver pills when discussing not going over one's GVWR or their GCWR.....I've alway's matched what I'm towing with what I'm going to tow with.....To me, this is the common sense thing to do and I don't have to worry about it or have to try to justify with others. I err to the side of safety... Start forming "cliques", or thinking one group is better than another doesn't produce productive discussions....Sorta sounds like I'm not worthy to be on the Escapee's forum....I don't "bring anything to the table" that is "value added"...I apologize for having posted.

As you say, you've been flamed (called names) on those other forums as have others that disagree with their "experts". I don't recall anyone ever being flamed here. Discussions get heated at times but not flamed.

Unfortunately on those other forums if you don't agree with the "experts" there is not "common sense" or logical discussion. The attitude is it's my way or the highway.

Why would anyone used only RAWR alone unless to justify their exceeding the other spec(s) and look like and "expert" to the sheep that follow their flawed advice.

Thanks for again reminding us about them. Oh yeah, you clearly don't belong over there. :D

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It looks like I'll be ok if I can find a NuWa 29RL. From the specs it has a GVWR of 12,800, UVW 9920, and a pin of 1960. I just want to tow w/o being white knuckeled while driving. I used to tow a 34' TT with a 6.9 Ford diesel, that was scary coming down a mountain, and 40mph floored going up. I'd rather not repeap that.

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As you say, you've been flamed (called names) on those other forums as have others that disagree with their "experts". I don't recall anyone ever being flamed here. Discussions get heated at times but not flamed.

Unfortunately on those other forums if you don't agree with the "experts" there is not "common sense" or logical discussion. The attitude is it's my way or the highway.

Why would anyone used only RAWR alone unless to justify their exceeding the other spec(s) and look like and "expert" to the sheep that follow their flawed advice.

Thanks for again reminding us about them. Oh yeah, you clearly don't belong over there. :D

You pretty much nailed it...To me, like you, they're pushing the manufacturers specified towing limits and head straight to axle weight ratings to try to justify it's all ok.....Some will even talk about getting higher weight rated tires to cover extra load...I THEN state at that point they very well may make THEIR rear axle the weak link, and of course..."flame on". Sorry to have went on.

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It looks like I'll be ok if I can find a NuWa 29RL. From the specs it has a GVWR of 12,800, UVW 9920, and a pin of 1960. I just want to tow w/o being white knuckeled while driving. I used to tow a 34' TT with a 6.9 Ford diesel, that was scary coming down a mountain, and 40mph floored going up. I'd rather not repeap that.

That sounds more reasonable for you....though it's possible that pin weight "could" be as high as 2400# ....Won't really know till loaded and do the weights.

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I just want to tow w/o being white knuckeled while driving. I used to tow a 34' TT with a 6.9 Ford diesel, that was scary coming down a mountain, and 40mph floored going up. I'd rather not repeap that.

 

That might be kind of where you're heading again with those basic specs though. I would bet a bottom dollar you don't have the payload capacity you might think and will be way over by a fair margin. I won't harp... I've just seen a lot of folks taking basic guesstimations off generic published weights and thinking their fine if their just 'a bit' overweight on some limits. They buy their 5er only to find out their TV weighs more than the curb weight on the door jamb so they don't have the payload capacity they thought they would, their pin weight is much higher than expected, and they forgot to consider the weight of the hitch itself and other necessities into their payload and pin calculations.

 

Get your actual weights before you buy. It's so cheap and easy to do.

 

If you have good weather and flat roads, it's probably doable in the short term, but catch some bad crosswinds or hills and it will be white knuckler for sure. ;)

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The following quote is from a NHTSA Q&A about RV trailers. However, the FMVSS rules for the GVWR ratings are the same ones used for cars and pickup trucks.

 

"The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use."

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