Commissary's being attacked again

[AprilWhine]

We have had discussions on this forum before about whether commissaries should remain as a benefit for service members. The original intent was to provide a grocery store for isolated military bases and to provide low-cost groceries to compensate for the low pay. Back then, a lot of low-ranking service members didn’t even have a car. That has all changed. That poor E-2 that Cyberdave is using as an example, is now making over $42,000 a year (go to the Air Force Times web page and click on Pay Center.) That figure does not include the monetary value of retirement benefits and medical care. Can you imagine an organization that will hire a high school graduate with no marketable skills and, after less than one year, pay him/her $42,000 a year?

 

Thank you. Too many people still believe the myth of the poor underpaid military. A year ago, I ran into a retiree wife who belonged to a club that made blankets for active duty military! I tried to tell her it wasn't needed, Amazon deliveries are now bulking up the mail but she just went La la la.

 

For those who quote $22k per year, remember pay comes in more than one form for the military. There is the tax free housing, food allowance, and others. All together this brings the pay up to the $42k per year quoted.

 

I think people in the military deserve to be well paid, but let's be realistic about it. The needs of someone being paid $42k per year are different than the needs of someone barely scraping by.

[nana25k]

There are other issues to consider in the pay situation but in general it certainly is not as bad as it was even in the 80's. The big stresses are for our reserve units who must walk away from a well paid job, that their lifestyle is anchored on, and take pay cuts while their units get called to active deployment

[remoandiris]

 

For those who quote $22k per year, remember pay comes in more than one form for the military. There is the tax free housing, food allowance, and others. All together this brings the pay up to the $42k per year quoted.

 

I think people in the military deserve to be well paid, but let's be realistic about it. The needs of someone being paid $42k per year are different than the needs of someone barely scraping by.

 

Please cite your source and include a link to the $42K. Even with BAS and with dependent BAH, it is still under $40K. A single E-2 dorm dweller is NOT getting $42K. Or do you think a dorm room is worth $1200 a month? Did you confuse the First Sgt's inspection schedule with concierge service?

 

I vividly remember the annual form I received telling me how much great stuff I was getting; gym membership, free healthcare, free dental, education benefits, job training, tax free in the war zone, etc. Yeah, you want to tally that all up and say it equals anything, I'll call you a joke. Fitness is a requirement of service, so the "paid gym membership" is not a benefit, it is a job requirement. Free dental? Annual checkup and cleaning. Free healthcare? Here, take a Motrin and you'll be fine. On-the-job training? Here's sign this OJT training record that says you know what you're doing, then go back to work. Education benefits? Yeah, after your 12-hr shift, there is no desire for college..

[skp51443]

Buying fancy toys from their retired friends so the retired friends will offer them a cushy job when they retire is a way of life for far too many of our senior military. I watched one useless intelligence system after another get big bucks, burn though them and end up as an unused pile of scrap in the corner of the motor pool.

 

I watched the GI bill go from a really good deal for the troops to a series of scams intended to fool folks into believing it would get them an education when they got out. It is of course much cheaper to scam someone with pretty promises than it is to actually pay for their education as promised.

 

Maybe fund the commissary by buying a cardboard F-35 for a couple hundred bucks and burning it on a runway instead of a real one?

 

I don't know what current pay rates are and I know to discount the nonsense "equivalent pay" spew from the bean counters and PR types, it was lies in my day and not likely to be any different today. If the pay package is enough to retain a sufficient number of qualified troops it is good enough, if it is giving us a paper tiger instead of a real one it is wasted money.

 

I do know that a young person considering entering the service today should know that all the promises made are not intended to be kept and that standards that were created to give us a superior force that could fight and win are being discarded in favor of political correctness. They should also be warned that they will have to choose between the truth and politically correct responses if they expect to survive in today's military.

[Cyberdave]

April are you serious? Really? You bite into that political nonsense? Please provide a link detailing this theory. Free gym membership...

[dsimpson]

 

Either you input bad data or the AF Times site has bad data. Base pay for an E-2 is under $22K a year for 2016.

 

http://www.militaryrates.com/military-pay-charts-e1_e5_2016

 

This is probably the most common myth among people ignorant of the military pay structure and unwilling to do the basic research to get the facts. Most military members receive pay above and beyond base pay. Since Cyberdave stipulated that the E-2 was supporting a family, the E-2 receives a housing allowance (BAH) and BAS. If he is stationed in San Antonio, TX, those two allowances total $1,835 - more that his base pay.

[remoandiris]

 

This is probably the most common myth among people ignorant of the military pay structure and unwilling to do the basic research to get the facts. Most military members receive pay above and beyond base pay. Since Cyberdave stipulated that the E-2 was supporting a family, the E-2 receives a housing allowance (BAH) and BAS. If he is stationed in San Antonio, TX, those two allowances total $1,835 - more that his base pay.

 

Ignorant, huh? Really? I spent 28 yrs in the USAF. How long did you serve? I am willing to bet I am a bit more "up" on jr enlisted issues than you.

 

If that E-2 is stationed at Hanscomb AFB in MA, The BAS and BAH total $2680. Good luck finding a 3 BR 1 bath within an hr commute for the $2300 BAH. Not to mention all the other joys of living in a high cost of living area like exorbitant car insurance. Just to add a little more joy to the convo, I had an E-8 friend of mine who is married with no kids and the closest he could afford to the Pentagon was a 90 min slog. But I digress.

What kind of quarters does $1500 get in San Antonio? What is the commute from Lackland, Bullis or the other facilities there?

 

If that E-2 is a dorm dweller he lives in one room with a shared bath, has a meal card so either gets 3 squares at the DFAC or spends his own money to eat out and gets just over $1700 a month base pay, period.

 

Since you are so smart about military life, you also know BAS is for the member, not for the spouse. And when said member deploys, he most likely will lose the BAS. And since you are so smart, you also know military members can't rely on the BAH level since it is so widely disparate from base to base.

 

You mentioned "tax free housing". You failed to mention weekly inspections of said housing and the ramifications if that housing doesn't meet a subjective, and often arbitrary, standard.

 

Do some jr enl spend their money on stupid stuff? Yes. For many it is the first time they have a steady paycheck. Does that mean they are overpaid? No, not by a long shot.

[Ray,IN]

Time out! Lets get back on subject. We all know civilian business' near military installations establish pricing to take the utmost advantage of military pay. I remember after I was drafted (2 weeks after Kennedy exempted married men from the draft) trying to live on the total income of a Spec 3. My wife and I lived in an efficiency apt., drove a junker 58 Chevy, never ate out, kept electricity usage to a minimum, etc. We could not afford to buy groceries off-base, our weekly trip to the commissary and PX on my day-off had to be matched with her day-off work at a grocery store. Then I had to borrow money from my 1SG to fly home to attend my brothers funeral. Can't remember what an E-3 made in 1966 though.

I really hope DeCA decides in favor of keeping pricing low enough to be favorable to our military instead of caving to civilian business pressure.

I've been retired since Aug. 1992 and still favor buying at the commissaries. Our last visit though, the man re-stocking the meat dept. told me he bought meat from a civilian meat market in a nearby town because it was cheaper and same quality. So much for cost + 5%.

 

Correction: I received a PM notifying me I fat-fingered something. I typed Spec 3, of course my brain told my fingers Spec 4. My bad.

[Travelforever]

WOW, I just read all of these comments on the possible raising of prices at the commissary. I am retired Air Force, a Vietnam veteran and a veteran of the first Gulf War. First of all being a full-timer we don't always use commissaries but we do use them when we can. We average about 30% savings over local stores. Anyone who thinks the prices are the same as civilian stores is either impaired in some way or does not shop in commissaries. I hope this benefit is not reduced or taken away from us. Some people have given outrageous comments on E-2's making $42,000 a year. Doug Simpson are you on drugs? I have heard references to the F-35 which costs billions and is not of much worth. But this is a defense contractor's money and Congress will never lower their billions. Just as Congress would not consider cutting the almost 4 billion is tax subsidies to oil companies. But oh yes let's cut the commissary benefit so retirees and lower ranking active duty get hurt.

It appears there are some of my fellow SKP's who have never served that actually think I am lucky or pampered in some way because I have these benefits and use them. To those of you who do feel this way let me just say this: No one was calling me lucky when I wore the uniform during Vietnam, in fact I got stationed overseas as soon as possible because people like (Doug) I imagine hated me. In California we were not allowed to be in Uniform off base because we didn't want to upset the locals. I had no such restrictions in the Country of Panama. As for pay even if an E-2 did make $42,000 a year where is he going to spend it in Iraq? 5000 Americans in uniform lost their lives in that war all because of lies and bad intelligence. 40,000 Americans came home with traumatic brain injuries, no legs or arms. Again all because we had an idiot for a president.

When you wear the uniform you never know if you are going to be sent to one of these hellholes or just live in San Antonio as given in the above example. Civilians never have to worry about being sent to Iraq. Civilians never have to worry about having their family ripped apart because they have to keep returning to Iraq or Afghanistan.

I don't expect people who have never served to understand everything I am saying but just imagine if you or your spouse was sent to a war zone and came home disabled or with PTSD. And then think "Oh but we get to save 30cents at the commissary." A very small benefit for those that served, please don't advocate taking it away!

 

Jeff Treganowan

AF Retired

A PROUD VETERAN WHO DAMN WELL EARNED EVERY BENEFIT I HAVE!!!!!

[AC7880]

 

If you are an E-2, you shouldnt have a family.

 

So Paul, would you say if you are on welfare you should not have a family? On EBT card should not have a family? In college not have a family? Who else should not have a family Paul?

[Cyberdave]

Jeff,

Excellent post. Thank you from a fellow AF retiree.

[RV_]

Thanks Jeff.

We did indeed earn it, and every other benefit we still have, none as promised. For those tightening other people's belts who are not eligible for the benefits in question it makes no difference what the active duty pay is or was. What is important is honorable intent, rather than trying to rationalize taking away benefits after we earned them honorably. If you folks are so all fired concerned about the budget then why not consider getting the revenues back to the good old Eisenhower republican presidency levels? The 50's were a great time to be American, for all Americans.

[nana25k]

WOW, I just read all of these comments on the possible raising of prices at the commissary. I am retired Air Force, a Vietnam veteran and a veteran of the first Gulf War. First of all being a full-timer we don't always use commissaries but we do use them when we can. We average about 30% savings over local stores. Anyone who thinks the prices are the same as civilian stores is either impaired in some way or does not shop in commissaries. I hope this benefit is not reduced or taken away from us. Some people have given outrageous comments on E-2's making $42,000 a year. Doug Simpson are you on drugs? I have heard references to the F-35 which costs billions and is not of much worth. But this is a defense contractor's money and Congress will never lower their billions. Just as Congress would not consider cutting the almost 4 billion is tax subsidies to oil companies. But oh yes let's cut the commissary benefit so retirees and lower ranking active duty get hurt.

It appears there are some of my fellow SKP's who have never served that actually think I am lucky or pampered in some way because I have these benefits and use them. To those of you who do feel this way let me just say this: No one was calling me lucky when I wore the uniform during Vietnam, in fact I got stationed overseas as soon as possible because people like (Doug) I imagine hated me. In California we were not allowed to be in Uniform off base because we didn't want to upset the locals. I had no such restrictions in the Country of Panama. As for pay even if an E-2 did make $42,000 a year where is he going to spend it in Iraq? 5000 Americans in uniform lost their lives in that war all because of lies and bad intelligence. 40,000 Americans came home with traumatic brain injuries, no legs or arms. Again all because we had an idiot for a president.

When you wear the uniform you never know if you are going to be sent to one of these hellholes or just live in San Antonio as given in the above example. Civilians never have to worry about being sent to Iraq. Civilians never have to worry about having their family ripped apart because they have to keep returning to Iraq or Afghanistan.

I don't expect people who have never served to understand everything I am saying but just imagine if you or your spouse was sent to a war zone and came home disabled or with PTSD. And then think "Oh but we get to save 30cents at the commissary." A very small benefit for those that served, please don't advocate taking it away!

 

Jeff Treganowan

AF Retired

A PROUD VETERAN WHO DAMN WELL EARNED EVERY BENEFIT I HAVE!!!!!

I seem to sense you are suggesting that Doug and others here have not served. Please let me assure you that he and others (my spouse included) in this conversation are also Viet Nam vets who went on to serve on active duty for 20+ years. And many of them are living with the same issues as you. So please don't suggest we don't know what we speak of.

[remoandiris]

So please don't suggest we don't know what we speak of.

 

Interesting statement since Doug did the same thing.

[DJW]

Who cares if we are paying an E1/E2 $40 Grand (although I do not believe that is true). They have volunteered to serve their country. They have received some type of training be it working on a $100 million Jet, standing on a wall to keep you safe or spending months under water. Just remember the dumb ass who dropped out of school and is now making your Big Mac is making $31,200 a year at $15.00 an hour. So for me the question is for $8,800 dollars a year what is the E1/E2 bringing to the table vs the dumb ass who could not even get a job at Wal-Mart.

 

Dennis

[dsimpson]

Some people have given outrageous comments on E-2's making $42,000 a year. Doug Simpson are you on drugs?

 

Rather than make comments like this, why don't you go to the Air Force Times web page and click on Pay Center. http://www.airforcetimes.com/benefits-center/pay-center/

[RV_]

(Edited as I forgot the link to the 1968 pay chart, it is there now and really worth a look for perspective, also added sentences and made corrections)

 

Doug this is not aimed at you or any other single member.

 

Yes let's go to the charts as they actually apply to the conversation.

 

Let's remember that only active duty (Incl. Reservists on their duty days) and retirees (Medical and 20 years in or more, Reserve retirees, Some Civil Service - [even uncivil]) get to use the commissary.)

 

Retiree pay is based solely on our base pay not any BAS, BAH, or COLA. For the civilians that means we get 2.5% per year of only our base pay in my generation of retirees. I retired in 1998. I get 62.5% of $2873.10 (See 1998 military pay chart here: https://www.navycs.com/charts/1998-military-pay-chart.html ) So my retirement pay was $1795.625 per month. Through some small cost of living increases it has been raised to just over $2000.00 per month in the past 17 years since I retired.

Few of the folks here live on that little per month, or if they do, it is because like me they made some decisions a few decades ago that paid off big, and are struggling to invest it in income producing withdrawals/pmts. I just pay cash now and sell for the same.

If you are eligible for commissary use and choose not to use that benefit I respect that as your prerogative. But your non use or other "preferences" will not change my mind, any more than my saying we use it, will change your minds.

My retirement was and is predicated on the benefits I earned, above and beyond the letter of the service, and honorably to boot.

I don't owe anyone a defense for my benefits already earned and done.

Sure they can make changes and try to attract the quality of military personnel my generation had. We were well educated and dedicated. Can't speak for or against other generations in the military or other branches, or individuals I do not know. But we should always grandfather the ones who already are retired and disabled in many cases to keep faith with the ones with $300 retirements .

Now the very folks that say they are distraught over deficits, conveniently "forget" that tax revenues have been cut for all the rich. Just the corporations are evading 80 billion a year in taxes by relocating their HQs in other countries. Then some imply it is unpatriotic to fight further erosion of our existing retirements? If you suddenly decide you can't afford them then where were you while me and my fellow military were defending American interests. If you are willing to do the work for nothing, I'm hiring. If not, don't try that on the military.

Constant repetition of untruths don't make them any more true than their first utterance. It is like the rich have brainwashed the middle class into blaming the lower class so that they ignore the upper income subsidies of 100%, or close, tax exemption. I did not say upper class because many have none.

 

I have also heard that the corporations being boycotted for moving their taxes overseas, to avoid paying their share here, where they got the freedoms and opportunities that allowed them to make it, are the loudest screamers to cut safety nets because we have a deficit. Then they run with loose bowels at the mention of every American paying their fair share. Interesting how many buy into that claptrap.

I know for a fact that most of the RVrs I hung around with were living on $2000 a month at minimum and having difficulty, from 1997-2003. My closest friends get $8000.00 when you combine their military retirements X2 plus second career retirements and savings investments.

I think the folks who really want to end the budget deficit just need to look at the last surplus we had and see if there are not a whole lot of options beyond taking it out of military hides that they missed.

I think many of the most vocal ex military are oldsters that make less today than the youngsters just retiring make in retirement. I made 60 bucks every two weeks in 1971 when I became a draft dodger by joining the AF just before my "Greetings" letter came. Cokes were a dime/15 cents, as were comic books and gas was a quarter/30 cents a gallon give or take as were each pack of my Lucky strikes unfiltered. Coffee was a dime!

But while the civilian costs skyrocketed, our retirements for a career in the military stay pretty much stagnant regardless of claims to the contrary. I retired 17 years ago and my retirement pay today is a couple of hundred more than when I retired. I would imagine that the folks who retired around the time I came in are amazed at the base pay etc. today.

See, if I'd retired in 1968 like my FIL did, I would have gotten $596.70 per month base pay. That would have been for an E-7 retiring after 26 years. That active duty pay chart is here: https://www.navycs.com/charts/1968-military-pay-chart.html

 

However my retired pay would only be 62.5% of that which would have been $372.94. Let's take away his and his fellow vets commissaries? Shame on every one of you!

So let's use the charts as intended. They are what we made active duty which is and was quite different then, than now. And our retirement in the 60s -90s was 2.5% per year with a minimum 20 years give or take a few years either side.

In other words grandfather the grandfather retirees, or shame on you. It is another discussion entirely to discuss active duty changes to retirement pay. That gives them the option to bail out or not go into the military in the first place. That is honorable. Again, situational ethics is not ethics.

The issue of the commissary has nothing to do with what a given decade's retirees got, and what the current retirees today are paid. The 1971 XKE Jaguar sold for an original MSRP of around $5500-$6000.00. Today the MSRP for a Jaguar XK is $87,225.00. Try saying that they should charge the same today as in 1971. About ten times less than THE PERCENTAGE OF CHANGE YOU SEE IN MILITARY PAY.

Things cost more, so do people. I don't begrudge Jaguar a fair price by today's standards. And the assumption that the enlisted force had no place else to go and are overpaid equivalents to fast food workers?? How dare anyone even insinuate that. I was enlisted with BS degrees and was halfway through my Master's when I retired. Most of my enlisted peers had a minimum AD, with many having a BS. MS degrees in the enlisted force was rarer. You don't get to work on advanced fighter avionics and high tech FLIR, TFR, and advanced threat evasion technology from flares and chaff to fooling the enemy radar with no more potential than the underachiever profile being touted here. I am a retired professional. I made great money as a Sous Chef in the greater New York City Area, more than ten times what the AF paid us. I gave blood to feed my first child since I got married two years after entering the AF, and had my first son a year later. Why? Because I was too proud to take food stamps which we qualified for. I literally aced the ASVAB tests both times I took them. I wanted nothing but out of the military until I started to be the professional. Then my first and best supervisor made the observation that left me no option. He was retiring a year before my first four year hitch was up. Before he left he said that I did indeed have a lot more earnings potential in the civilian sector than the average Joe. But if all of us above average folks left the military, what would that leave protecting us? I know some of the posters here have a grudge against the military, heck some may be folks I helped to find a better career and separated involuntarily. But there was a core cadre in my generation and we knew and helped each other prevail over the "praetorian" officer and enlisted types.

You may say nasty things about yourselves, and admit to really seditious leanings while in the military. Don't insult me with those projections.
I am glad we only serve 30 years or less in most cases so we can get a second career/job, and make some real money to catch up with our service pay lags of a few decades.

Some folks will use the commissary, others won't. As for determining how each DOD department spends their money, I believe that is above all the pay grades here.

 

So when screaming about budget shortages, let's talk about revenues and who is paying their share and paint the real picture of the current economics. There are two parts to every budget, income and outgo. If everyone paid just their fair share. NOT the 90% tax rates of the Eisenhower years, but not the loopholes of today either, where those who got the most from our country, and our military, to make billions, pay nothing or close. Let's not cloud simple economics with any form of rhetoric.

 

And don't anyone dare tell me I deserve less than I was promised.

 

Now I need to write another letter to my representatives objecting strenuously to the erosion of yet another promised benefit.

 

There's a difference between doing right, and being right. Doing right ethically does not change with the situation. If one wants to balance a personal budget, sometimes they have to ask for a raise.

 

If attacking retirees and active duty military is someone's only budget solution, I suggest they overlooked some simple math, and many real solutions that do not involve "doublespeak."

[AC7880]

I agree 100 percent with your post.

 

 

Yes let's go to the charts as they actually apply to the conversation.

 

Let's remember that only active duty (Incl. Reservists on their duty days) and retirees (Medical and 20 years in or more, Reserve retirees, Some Civil Service - [even uncivil]) get to use the commissary.)

 

Retiree pay is based solely on our base pay not any BAS, BAH, or COLA. For the civilians that means we get 2.5% per year of only our base pay in my generation of retirees. I retired in 1998. I get 62.5% of $2873.10 (See 1998 military pay chart here: https://www.navycs.com/charts/1998-military-pay-chart.html ) So my retirement pay was $1795.625 per month. Through some small cost of living increases it has been raised to just over $2000.00 per month in the past 17 years since I retired.

Few of the folks here live on that little per month, or if they do, it is because like me they made some decisions a few decades ago that paid off big, and are struggling to invest it in income producing withdrawals/pmts. I just pay cash now and sell for the same.

If you are eligible for commissary use and choose not to use that benefit I respect that as your prerogative. But your non use or other "preferences" will not change my mind, any more than my saying we use it, will change your minds.

My retirement was and is predicated on the benefits I earned, above and beyond the letter of the service, and honorably to boot.

I don't owe anyone a defense for my benefits already earned and done.

Sure they can make changes and try to attract the quality of military personnel my generation was. We were well educated and dedicated. Can't speak for or against other generations in the military or other branches. But they should always grandfather the ones who already are retired and disabled in many cases.

Now the very folks that say they are distraught over deficits conveniently "forget" that tax revenues have been cut for all the rich, and just the corporations are evading 80 billion a year in taxes by relocating their HQs in other countries. Then some imply it is unpatriotic to fight further erosion of our existing retirements? If you suddenly decide you can't afford them then where were you while me and my fellow military were defending American interests. If you are willing to do the work for nothing, I'm hiring. If not, don't try that on the military.

Constant repetition of untruths don't make them any more true than their first utterance. It is like the rich have brainwashed the middle class into blaming the lower class so that they ignore the upper class subsidies of 100%, or close, tax exemption.

I have also heard that the corporations being boycotted for moving their taxes overseas to avoid paying their share here where they got the freedoms and opportunities that allowed them to make it are the loudest screamers to cut safety nets because we have a deficit run with loose bowels at the mention of every American paying their fair share. Interesting how many buy into that claptrap.

I know for a fact that most of the RVrs I hung around with were living on $2000 a month at minimum and having difficulty, from 1997-2003. My closest friends get $8000.00 when you combine their military retirements X2 plus second career retirements and savings investments.

I think the folks who really want to end the budget deficit just need to look at the last surplus we had and see if there are not a whole lot of options beyond taking it out of military hides.

I think many of the most vocal ex military are oldsters that make less today than the youngsters just retiring make in retirement. I made 60 bucks every two weeks in 1971 when I became a draft dodger by joining the AF just before my "Greetings" letter came. Cokes were a dime, as were comic books and gas was a quarter a gallon give or take as were each pack of my Lucky strikes unfiltered. Coffee was a dime!

But while the civilian costs skyrocketed, our retirements for a career in the military stay pretty much stagnant regardless of claims to the contrary. I retired 17 years ago and my retirement pay today is a couple of hundred more than when I retired. I would imagine that the folks who retired around the time I came in are amazed at the base pay etc. today.

See, if I'd retired in 1968 like my FIL did, I would have gotten $596.70 per month base pay. That would have been for an E-7 retiring after 26 years. That active duty pay chart is here: However my retired pay would only be 62.5% of that which would have been $372.94. Let's take away his and his fellow vets commissaries?

So let's use the charts as intended. They are what we made active duty which is and was quite different then, than now. And our retirement in the 60s -90s was 2.5% per year with a minimum 20 years give or take a few years either side.

In other words grandfather the grandfather retirees, or shame on you. It is another discussion entirely to discuss active duty changes to retirement pay. That gives them the option to bail out or not go into the military in the first place. That is honorable. Again, situational ethics is not ethics.

The issue of the commissary has nothing to do with what a given decade's retirees got, and what the current retirees today are paid. The 1971 XKE Jaguar sold for an original MSRP of around $5500-$6000.00. Today the MSRP for a Jaguar XK is $87,225.00. Try saying that they should charge the same today as in 1971.

Things cost more, so do people. I don't begrudge them a fair price by today's standards. And the assumption that the enlisted force had no place else to go and are overpaid equivalents to fast food workers?? How dare anyone even insinuate that. I was enlisted with BS degrees and was halfway through my Master's when I retired. Most of my enlisted peers had a minimum AD, with many having a BS. MS degrees in the enlisted force was rarer. You don't get to work on advanced fighter avionics and high tech FLIR, TFR, and advanced threat evasion technology from flares and chaff to fooling the enemy radar with no more potential than the underachiever profile being touted here.

I am glad we only serve 30 years or less in most cases so we can get a second career/job, and make some real money to catch up with our service pay lags for a few decades.

Some folks will use the commissary, others won't. As for determining how each DOD department spends their money, I believe that is above all the pay grades here.

 

So when screaming about budget shortages, let's talk about revenues and who is paying their share and paint the real picture of the current economics. There are two parts to every budget, income and outgo. If everyone paid just their fair share. NOT the 90% tax rates of the Eisenhower years, but not the loopholes of today either, where those who got the most from our country and our military to make billions pay nothing or close. Let's not cloud simple economics with any form of rhetoric.

 

And don't anyone dare tell me I deserve less than I was promised.

 

Now I need to write another letter to my representatives objecting strenuously to the erosion of yet another promised benefit.

 

There's a difference between doing right, and being right. Doing right ethically does not change with the situation. If one wants to balance a personal budget, sometimes they have to ask for a raise.

 

If attacking retirees and active duty military is someone's only budget solution, I suggest they overlooked some simple math.

[DJW]

RV Good Points

 

Dennis

[RV_]

Thanks guys. This subject, erosion of benefits, is close to our hearts because not only are we retirees, but our only surviving parent, my FIL, is too. He served in the Army first just after WWII, in 1948. He was one of MacArthur's Guards at the Viceroy's residence and office in the Dai-Ichi building, when he was Viceroy of Japan. Then he switched to the AF and was there through the 50s-68, when rank was almost impossible to attain. The E7 retiree was me. I stayed with the E7 in my example for consistency. He actually retired as a Tech Sergeant-E6, so his retirement check is even lower. He's in his mid 80s and getting a bit weaker but still hanging in there taking care of his acreage.

 

We just buried my MIL a week ago Friday. They were married 63 years. My uncle was killed in a B-52 crash. His widow is 84 now, and one of the ones affected. Those are the people that I close ranks with. They and we earned it. When I say the Air Force is my family I mean it quite literally too. And no one is going to make me feel guilty, or as was once put, that it was somehow my duty NOT to demand to be paid what was agreed to, after the labors and sacrifices were done.

 

I will repeat. No one is honorable in any way, who after the job is done, welches on the pre-agreed payment, all the while "poor mouthing" as it is phrased here in the South.

[Ray,IN]

Just to clear things up in with this old thread: Military pay charts, including all pay and allowances from Oct. 1 1949 to Jan. 1, 2016 directly from http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/military-pay-charts.html?utm_source=hmpg&utm_medium=hmpgltsnews&utm_campaign=paychart12-13-15

[Ray,IN]

Back to the Commissary issue. Here is the latest information from Military.com, the part pertaining to Commissaries begins with the 6th paragraph.