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GeorgiaHybrid

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I think part of what is tripping it all up is that the two trucks aren't built the same. Typically, not always but typically, pre RSD 6x4 tractors are built with 15x4 type 20 front and 16.5x7 rear brakes. 6x2's have 16.5x5 type 30 front and 16.5x7 rear brakes with sometimes up to 6" slacks. So your Brake Factors between the two are closer than just one axle away. Also, the weight of that axle is unsprung weight which, depending on suspension, can be a 1:4 to 1:9 ratio with the effectiveness of sprung weight. So ya it does makes a difference weight wise but it isn't 1:1. As for putting a distance to it I'm sure there are hundreds of NHTSA test results online somewhere.

 

So now you take all the charts, numbers, videos, and math above, take in to account that 1.8" of your 2" stroke is taken up by fade/deflection/running clearance (ie: the feel 'sensitivity' mentioned above) even when set up right, and that 30% of trucks out there in 2014 had 2 or more brakes that weren't right, and you end up with 106 trucks on this forum that statistically don't make the cut. So you can see why it is important and probably worth 5 pages of discussion. Have we all rolled under our trucks and checked brakes today?

Yup Scrap.........just as the old Capt said......."Son, it's not a perfect world"......

 

 

I see not much has changed around here. Lots more numbers and statistics than seat time.

 

I will answer the question regarding the low psi in the greater sized tire such as the dragster tire mentioned, psi is, pounds per square inch, the

greater the surface area it is spread out over, the greater the force that is being exerted against it.

 

Playing with calculator will scare you to death sometimes.

Yup Pipe........Like the old Capt said " Son, it's not a perfect world"...........darn those "figures".......bet the devil is in there somewhere....

 

Drive on........(Don't bet on a perfect world......(or perfect brakes))

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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Thanks folks, was on the phone with my favorite snake oil salesman and our conversation led to here, thought I'd take a peek.

Do NOT send me a PM, Cliick HERE to email me!

In considering a truck like that you need to ask yourself just how much you enjoy meeting new people, such as tow truck drivers and heavy truck mechanics?

Or perhaps, enjoying the great outdoors, like the side of the road while waiting to meet those exciting people?

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I see not much has changed around here. Lots more numbers and statistics than seat time.

 

I will answer the question regarding the low psi in the greater sized tire such as the dragster tire mentioned, psi is, pounds per square inch, the

greater the surface area it is spread out over, the greater the force that is being exerted against it.

 

Playing with calculator will scare you to death sometimes.

 

Good to see you made it back Pipe.....

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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It's been a lotta fun folks.........

 

Carry on..........

 

Gotta go.........as soon as I count my axles and check the brakes and tires.....

 

Drive on.........(keep you stopping distance.........)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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Here is a video that some folks might find interesting.

 

WARNING: Some viewers may find this video offensive as there are graphic scenes showing two identically loaded trucks performing braking comparison tests and the trucks do not stop in the same distance.....

 

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v57K1WW41K8

And once again, you are comparing apples to oranges. Your video link plainly states that it is comparing air DISC brakes to air DRUM brakes. Thank you for supporting my statement that identical trucks with better brakes will stop faster. But as I have said, comparing IDENTICAL trucks one being a single rear axle and the other being tandem, there will not be a drastic amount of stopping distance between the two. I never said they would be exact.

 

And yes, traction is ONE component in braking, but traction does not equal stopping distance. You NEED traction to stop. If that was all it was about, then like Jack said, they wouldn't build single rear axle trucks or maybe they would just require them to put 8 tires on that single axle. As was mentioned before, dragsters need traction to launch themselves down the track, but those huge sticky tires with all that "traction" don't stop worth a darn on their own.

 

Obviously we are going to disagree. You keep your two rear axles and I will keep my one, satisfied that I can stop just fine without running you over.

 

So now you take all the charts, numbers, videos, and math above, take in to account that 1.8" of your 2" stroke is taken up by fade/deflection/running clearance (ie: the feel 'sensitivity' mentioned above) even when set up right, and that 30% of trucks out there in 2014 had 2 or more brakes that weren't right, and you end up with 106 trucks on this forum that statistically don't make the cut. So you can see why it is important and probably worth 5 pages of discussion. Have we all rolled under our trucks and checked brakes today?

Scrap....I haven't done it today (after all it IS 05:50), but does Monday count? An equally big question is how many here even know how to check them. Or what to do if they are out of adjustment.

 

Hi Ya Pipe!! :)

MY PEOPLE SKILLS ARE JUST FINE.
~It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work.~

2005 Volvo 780 VED12 465hp / Freedomline transmission
singled mid position / Bed by Larry Herrin
2018 customed Mobile Suites 40KSSB3 

2014 smart Fortwo

 

 
 
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In Ontario, that would be call a certified air brake technician.

 

Only place i the U.S. And Canada it a requirement.

George,
Suzuki Celerio 998cc

Yamaha NMAX scooter

 

Work ride is Western Star N2 Tri-Tri tanker at 56,500kg loaded

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Jack,

 

Have you done any brake tests on your New Horizon with the MORryde suspension?

No, but the Royals International had Mor/Ryde IS on it. I'm not sure the suspension would have much to do with the braking efficiency. Some, but I would not consider it a significant factor for an RV 5th wheel. Especially on a smooth highway, which is where most of us are.

 

I will not do any more braking tests (on purpose). Even though I prepped the interior it was an "ugly" experience and probably foolhardy.

Jack & Danielle Mayer #60376 Lifetime Member
Living on the road since 2000

PLEASE no PM's. Email me. jackdanmayer AT gmail
2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it)
2022 New Horizons 43' 5er
2016 Itasca 27N 28' motorhome 
2019 Volvo 860, D13 455/1850, 236" wb, I-Shift, battery-based APU
No truck at the moment - we use one of our demo units
2016 smart Passion, piggyback on the truck
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
See our website for info on New Horizons 5th wheels, HDTs as tow vehicles, communications on the road, and use of solar power
www.jackdanmayer.com
Principal in RVH Lifestyles. RVH-Lifestyles.com

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I think part of what is tripping it all up is that the two trucks aren't built the same. Typically, not always but typically, pre RSD 6x4 tractors are built with 15x4 type 20 front and 16.5x7 rear brakes. 4x2's have 16.5x5 type 30 front and 16.5x7 rear brakes with sometimes up to 6" slacks. So your Brake Factors between the two are closer than just one axle away. Also, the weight of that axle is unsprung weight which, depending on suspension, can be a 1:4 to 1:9 ratio with the effectiveness of sprung weight. So ya it does makes a difference weight wise but it isn't 1:1. As for putting a distance to it I'm sure there are hundreds of NHTSA test results online somewhere.

 

So now you take all the charts, numbers, videos, and math above, take in to account that 1.8" of your 2" stroke is taken up by fade/deflection/running clearance (ie: the feel 'sensitivity' mentioned above) even when set up right, and that 30% of trucks out there in 2014 had 2 or more brakes that weren't right, and you end up with 106 trucks on this forum that statistically don't make the cut. So you can see why it is important and probably worth 5 pages of discussion. Have we all rolled under our trucks and checked brakes today?

 

 

EDIT - Wow I meant to say 4x2's and not 6x2's!

Have we rolled under today ? Yes

Replaced bad hubseal , drums , and shoes # 2 axle.

Waiting for my son to bring home 4 ea 30 30 short stroke cans and all new air lines. :)

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Vegasflyer, I'm at the office and was discussing this with a coworker. Here is an analogy that he used that might make more sense to you.

I weigh 200 lbs in my bare feet. I exert 200 lbs of force onto the floor and the Co-efficient of friction on the floor is "xyz". If I stand on 1 foot, I still exert the same 200 lbs of force on the floor and the Co-efficient of friction is still "xyz". If I grew 2 extra feet, I still exert the same 200 lbs of force, only spread out on 4 feet. The pressure applied to the floor and the co-efficient of friction has never changed. Unless my weight changes or I put on shoes, it will still take to same force to slide/drag/push/pull me across the floor.

6 tires or 10, if all other factors remain constant, the friction required to stop will not change. The only change can be, as you pointed out, different BRAKES. Your extra axle will add two BRAKES, which will not make that great a difference in stopping distance, but the extra tires will have no effect.

MY PEOPLE SKILLS ARE JUST FINE.
~It's my tolerance to idiots that needs work.~

2005 Volvo 780 VED12 465hp / Freedomline transmission
singled mid position / Bed by Larry Herrin
2018 customed Mobile Suites 40KSSB3 

2014 smart Fortwo

 

 
 
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Something to ponder folks.....

What is a Performance-Based Brake Test?

K3156T10.jpgA Performance-Based Brake Test (PBBT) is any device which can quantitatively assess the braking performance of a vehicle. This is done through direct measurements of the brake forces at each wheel, axle or for the vehicle as a whole. Such devices include roller dynamometers, flat plate brake testers, breakaway torque brake testers and drawbar-type testers. Each of these devices can determine the brake forces without restriction to brake type (disk or drum) or energy supply (air, hydraulic or electric). In addition, PBBTs based on mechanical or electronic decelerometers can assess the overall vehicle braking capability through a stopping performance test in which deceleration and/or stopping distance is obtained, also independent of brake type or application method. Some PBBT types have been used worldwide for decades for both safety inspections and as part of regular Preventive Maintenance (PM) work in fleet shops.

What specific test results are obtained with a PBBT and how will these benefit my fleet?

A PBBT can provide wheel-by-wheel and axle-by-axle brake forces, which are important for:
Benchmarking – New vehicles’ brakes can be checked upon delivery to establish a baseline for future brake work or lining replacement selection.

Limiting Liability – Equipment providers can ensure that the vehicles they lease or rent have adequate braking capability before they are taken by the customer. Similarly, in drayage or other drive-away operations, trailers that are picked up can be checked prior to heading out.

Air System Problems – PBBTs have the capability to locate and identify problems within the air system. For example: a single brake with an early apply threshold can reduce lining life by two-thirds. Correcting such a problem can save $200 to $300 per axle per year.

Drum Problems – Out-of-round and off-center drums, affecting both brake wear and braking performance, can be found with a PBBT.

Parking Brake Problems – Broken or weak spring brakes can easily be identified with a PBBT.

Brake Balance – The brake forces at each wheel should optimally be in proportion to the loads on each wheel during a stop. Low brake force on one brake results in increased demand and accelerated wear on the other brakes.

GVW Check – Although not generally as accurate as certified scales most PBBTs have axle weighing capability.

Cargo Positioning - With additional information or estimations of weight shift during a stop, the effect of distribution as well as proper securement of cargo during a dynamic stop can be assessed.What other benefits are there for my fleet?

Increased Throughput – Every vehicle’s brakes can be checked in a matter of minutes before it leaves the yard, or for a motorcoach, before it goes into service for the day, providing peace of mind to the fleet operator.

Potential Savings on Insurance – Work with your insurer to determine whether your premiums can be lowered through the use of a PBBT. One fleet’s PBBT purchase was paid for in the first year through the reduction in premiums.

Lower Fuel Costs – Identifying dragging brakes or bad bearings can reduce fuel consumption.
Safety and Performance - Stopping distance, for which maximum braking capability is but one factor, can be enhanced through improved brake balance and increased overall maximum brake strength.

In my maintenance shop, can’t the same information be obtained from a complete brake inspection?

While some of the information available from a PBBT can be determined from a physical brake inspection, additional complementary information is obtained. In particular, no known visual inspection method can determine whether a given brake has adequate braking forces. Visual inspections can detect a potential lack of performance if certain components are missing, damaged or are out of adjustment. However, the actual brake performance depends not only on all components being present and in proper mechanical order, but particularly on the friction forces generated at the drum/block (or disk/pad) interface. In the case of some non-OEM aftermarket linings, contaminated or glazed linings and pressure restrictions in air lines, the braking performance can be dramatically degraded despite the proper appearance of all mechanical components. The use of the two complementary techniques is ideal for the maintenance shop.

Can’t I get the same information from a stopping distance test performed in my yard?

Not exactly. While stopping tests are the oldest quantitative method of determining overall vehicle performance, they provide limited information. The detailed brake force and balance information which helps a fleet keep its maintenance costs down are not available from a stopping distance test. Nor is any of the diagnostic air system information that can be determined with some PBBTs available from a stopping test.

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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No, but the Royals International had Mor/Ryde IS on it. I'm not sure the suspension would have much to do with the braking efficiency. Some, but I would not consider it a significant factor for an RV 5th wheel. Especially on a smooth highway, which is where most of us are.

 

I will not do any more braking tests (on purpose). Even though I prepped the interior it was an "ugly" experience and probably foolhardy.

I can only imagine it is not being something you would want to do every Wednesday.....lol

 

I was more curious if the MorRyde seemed more or less stabile than a leaf spring trailer in a sudden stop, or showed you any different characteristics than a leaf spring trailer. You know how some Air Ride trailers can do odd things after you stop?

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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And once again, you are comparing apples to oranges. Your video link plainly states that it is comparing air DISC brakes to air DRUM brakes. Thank you for supporting my statement that identical trucks with better brakes will stop faster. But as I have said, comparing IDENTICAL trucks one being a single rear axle and the other being tandem, there will not be a drastic amount of stopping distance between the two. I never said they would be exact.

 

And yes, traction is ONE component in braking, but traction does not equal stopping distance. You NEED traction to stop. If that was all it was about, then like Jack said, they wouldn't build single rear axle trucks or maybe they would just require them to put 8 tires on that single axle. As was mentioned before, dragsters need traction to launch themselves down the track, but those huge sticky tires with all that "traction" don't stop worth a darn on their own.

 

Obviously we are going to disagree. You keep your two rear axles and I will keep my one, satisfied that I can stop just fine without running you over.

 

 

Scrap....I haven't done it today (after all it IS 05:50), but does Monday count? An equally big question is how many here even know how to check them. Or what to do if they are out of adjustment.

Hi Ya Pipe!! :)

"satisfied that I can stop just fine without running you over. "

 

That being the case, if we keep debating you'll probably run my ass over..........lol

 

Well we surely do agree on the question of how many folks actually check or know how to check their brakes. Kinda makes ya shudder thinking about it.

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

ALAKAZARCACODEFLGAHIIDILINIAKSKYLAMAMNMS
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Vegasflyer, I'm at the office and was discussing this with a coworker. Here is an analogy that he used that might make more sense to you.

I weigh 200 lbs in my bare feet. I exert 200 lbs of force onto the floor and the Co-efficient of friction on the floor is "xyz". If I stand on 1 foot, I still exert the same 200 lbs of force on the floor and the Co-efficient of friction is still "xyz". If I grew 2 extra feet, I still exert the same 200 lbs of force, only spread out on 4 feet. The pressure applied to the floor and the co-efficient of friction has never changed. Unless my weight changes or I put on shoes, it will still take to same force to slide/drag/push/pull me across the floor.

6 tires or 10, if all other factors remain constant, the friction required to stop will not change. The only change can be, as you pointed out, different BRAKES. Your extra axle will add two BRAKES, which will not make that great a difference in stopping distance, but the extra tires will have no effect.

I agree COMPLETELY!! And with those four bare feet, don't you think you will be a whole lot more stable? And as you said, those extra brakes wouldn't be a bad thing either.

 

In one of my earlier posts where I said it would give you more coefficient of friction, I should have said it would spread that out more and the four extra tires would allow the two extra brakes to help provide additional braking force.

 

Now, I have never put a figure (percentage or distance) on how much those two BRAKES will help, even if it turns out to only be twenty feet, that could be the difference between a close call and plowing through a passenger car. If it is more than that, as I suspect it is, all the better.

 

And I also completely agree with a point you eluded to which is the importance of the brain of the driver being smart enough to allow enough following distance.

 

One last point, PLEASE, for ANYONE reading this thread, I am NOT saying that the only safe truck is a tandem axle truck, or that YOU should never single out your truck or you should convert it back to tandem if you already did single itout. I am just saying, make that decision based on an understanding of what the difference is, NOT because the first HDT you saw had been singled out. Or because a bunch of pictures in the gallery, etc.

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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Correct me IF I have a odd take on the single or tandem or Disk or Drum Brakes.........

 

My take.... it seems that ALL of the "Outside Ref Data" pertaining to what truck stops in the shortest distance seems to be the truck with........the best maintained brakes.

 

Perhaps I have not searched it the correct location to find the data that supports the single vs tandem theory of .....best-of-brakes........

 

The one thing that might be key to insight in this brake matter might involve "Inertia" that seems to be a key factor in various truck brake testing.

 

It seems to me that a singled truck loaded to max weight and operated at XYZ speed results in a inertia that falls within a acceptable brake capacity of XX for the single truck.

 

It seems to me that a tandem truck loaded to max weight and operated at XYZ speed results in a inertia that falls within a acceptable brake capacity of XX for the tandem truck.

 

It may very well be that IF both trucks are within the acceptable weight , brake and "Proportional-Inertia-Values" that it is likely that the actual stopping distances may be very close..

 

In other words given good and balanced brakes and loads within the axle limits it is likely to matter very little in stopping distance therefore formal truck stopping distance studies seem to not mention axle-counts.

 

Correct me is I have odd take on this subject.

 

My wife did gaze at the post regarding the post of the bike and the HDT being able to stop in the same distance from the same speed........she proposed that I get on my 10-speed bike peddle up to 35 MPH and that she follow me in the Freightshaker about 4 bike lengths BEHIND the bike then she will blast the train horn when we both apply Max brake effort and see where the bike and Freightshaker stop...............this could be the........brake test to........end all tests......... :huh:

 

Correct me where I am wrong......

 

Drive on.......(test with care....)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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The one thing that might be key to insight in this brake matter might involve "Inertia" that seems to be a key factor in various truck brake testing.

 

It seems to me that a singled truck loaded to max weight and operated at XYZ speed results in a inertia that falls within a acceptable brake capacity of XX for the single truck.

 

It seems to me that a tandem truck loaded to max weight and operated at XYZ speed results in a inertia that falls within a acceptable brake capacity of XX for the tandem truck.

 

It may very well be that IF both trucks are within the acceptable weight , brake and "Proportional-Inertia-Values" that it is likely that the actual stopping distances may be very close..

 

In other words given good and balanced brakes and loads within the axle limits it is likely to matter very little in stopping distance therefore formal truck stopping distance studies seem to not mention axle-counts.

 

 

That would be my take on it as well, based on the info I have. But Scrap or Volvo would likely have studies on this that would clarify things. Neither of which would be likely to share them. :) In the end, the driver can and does mitigate braking issues by correct driving habits. Myself, I try to maintain at least 6 seconds following space at all times....which is annoying in heavy traffic, and sometimes not possible. Just what I do - I'm not suggesting this is a best practice.

 

The decision to single or not is based on a multitude of factors, only one of which is braking. Other may dominate the braking factor, EVEN IF there is a significant difference. Since I started all this (I think) with my "you might consider remaining tandem" comment I guess I'll end MY participation by saying that you need to consider ALL the factors in making the decision to single or not. Just don't overlook the weight factor....because as heavy as the axles are - you CAN exceed them in an RV hauler scenario.

Jack & Danielle Mayer #60376 Lifetime Member
Living on the road since 2000

PLEASE no PM's. Email me. jackdanmayer AT gmail
2016 DRV Houston 44' 5er (we still have it)
2022 New Horizons 43' 5er
2016 Itasca 27N 28' motorhome 
2019 Volvo 860, D13 455/1850, 236" wb, I-Shift, battery-based APU
No truck at the moment - we use one of our demo units
2016 smart Passion, piggyback on the truck
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
See our website for info on New Horizons 5th wheels, HDTs as tow vehicles, communications on the road, and use of solar power
www.jackdanmayer.com
Principal in RVH Lifestyles. RVH-Lifestyles.com

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My wife did gaze at the post regarding the post of the bike and the HDT being able to stop in the same distance from the same speed........she proposed that I get on my 10-speed bike peddle up to 35 MPH and that she follow me in the Freightshaker about 4 bike lengths BEHIND the bike then she will blast the train horn when we both apply Max brake effort and see where the bike and Freightshaker stop...............this could be the........brake test to........end all tests......... :huh:

 

Correct me where I am wrong......

Note the careful statement about hydraulic-braked truck. The air brakes we all love do actually present a 0.5-1.0 second application delay as the (compressible) fluid flows through the lines (hoses). At 35mph, that translates into 51ft/sec, so four bike lengths won't be enough. However, I think if I was on my brake and heard an air horn crawling up my buttcrack, I'd be shaking the freight a lot more than any Freightshaker...

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That would be my take on it as well, based on the info I have. But Scrap or Volvo would likely have studies on this that would clarify things. Neither of which would be likely to share them. :) In the end, the driver can and does mitigate braking issues by correct driving habits. Myself, I try to maintain at least 6 seconds following space at all times....which is annoying in heavy traffic, and sometimes not possible. Just what I do - I'm not suggesting this is a best practice.

 

The decision to single or not is based on a multitude of factors, only one of which is braking. Other may dominate the braking factor, EVEN IF there is a significant difference. Since I started all this (I think) with my "you might consider remaining tandem" comment I guess I'll end MY participation by saying that you need to consider ALL the factors in making the decision to single or not. Just don't overlook the weight factor....because as heavy as the axles are - you CAN exceed them in an RV hauler scenario.

Great suggestion about following distance and......

 

Great place for us all to stop, no pun intended......

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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The topic of next weeks debate shall be:

 

"Why do dogs stick thier head out the window when riding in your truck and then get pissed off if you blow in thier face?"

John

Southern Nevada

2008 Volvo 780, D13, I-Shift

2017 Keystone Fuzion 420 Toyhauler 

2017 Can-Am Maverick X3-RS

 

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Back to the topic of singling...I rode in a KW today with an RVer who has been on the road over a dozen years. He has not singled. He has gone to single tires on the tandems. He didn't single the rear because he wants to keep the diff lock. He said if he removed the mid axle, he loses diff lock. He has been places he needed to lock the diff (like wet grass). That gave me something else to consider if I go HDT.

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Note the careful statement about hydraulic-braked truck. The air brakes we all love do actually present a 0.5-1.0 second application delay as the (compressible) fluid flows through the lines (hoses). At 35mph, that translates into 51ft/sec, so four bike lengths won't be enough. However, I think if I was on my brake and heard an air horn crawling up my buttcrack, I'd be shaking the freight a lot more than any Freightshaker...

Peety3,

 

Thanks for the 51 ft calc.......when I mentioned that the Freightshaker might "bump" into the bike a bit the wife said...."no big deal....the FL has that really floppy "soft" plastic front bumper with the only "hard-spots" being the TWO BIG tow hooks that stick out like the tusks on a wild boar"........so......all I would need to do.......would be to just to avoid those tow-hooks.......

 

I know a local brewmaster and he knows a lot about air-brakes on beer trucks..... and he mentioned the "one-second-lag" so that I just need to fit toe bike with air brakes and we would likely be "even".........

 

I did not start the truck vs bike comment but it seems that I might just let the wife forget the "test" and let this thread just....... get slower and........slooower .........and........

 

Drive on..........(watch out for bikes......)

97 Freightshaker Century Cummins M11-370 / 1350 /10 spd / 3:08 /tandem/ 20ft Garage/ 30 ft Curtis Dune toybox with a removable horse-haul-module to transport Dolly-The-Painthorse to horse camps and trail heads all over the Western U S

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