How Can Escapees have everything right about RVing except internet at their parks?

[DuffMan]

Despite the protestations from people who say they never stream movies, I'd be real surprised if some or all of those same folks didn't engage in Skyping to grandchildren or watching cute animal videos on Facebook. The net effect is the same as streaming a movie. It's hard to even read news stories these days without encountering embedded video which runs unless you know how to prevent it.

 

You gotta love those UTube videos that, after you watch one, auto start the next one in the series. Leave the tab open and walk away and watch your data usage skyrocket. Gotta get that ad revenue up to pay for all those handy videos.

 

Noticed one company that produces those UTube videos generates in excess of $1 million in ad revenue. Not a bad return. And we worked for a living!

[Dollytrolley]

In my previous life, I lived out of a corp airplane and a small suitcase. Since we drove our own planes we would often spend the night in a lot of out-of-the-way hotels /motels (some were just above flea-bag...but beegers and pilots can't be very choosy...) that being said, we had to download a lot of large engineerig files and for the most part, most of the cheap hotels / motels seemed to have pretty good bandwidth.

 

The major mid-range motels (Best West, Holiday Inn, Etc) REALLY brag about big bandwidth just to entice the lower rung biz traveler (and non-flea-bag-pilots) so seldom did we have a shortage of bandwidth at these hotels. We did NOT download movies mostly because much of the day we were looking at nav-screens, Radar screens, gages, indicator lights and so the last thing we needed was another screen to look at at the hotel.

 

I am just guessing that RV parks have a "captive market" and hotels are in a "cut-throat-market" so bandwidth is less of a draw for a RV market but is vital for a hotel market share.

 

Just my take as a former net user on the road.

 

We have a WIFI Verizon Hotspot since we do not seldom stay at a "conventional" RV park that allows our horse, so we live with the hotspot, but it has it's own warts and Verizon is a real...... well if you try them you'll find about more warts...... Verizon and ATT own the mobil market so.......... here we are.....

 

Just my take ........

 

Safe travels,

 

Dollytrolley

[Dollytrolley]

By the way folks I have been on the forum and my AOL email here for 93 minutes on our MyFi hotspot this morning here at the stables here in Pahrump NV and my bandwidth accounting program says my Tx= 1.45 MB and my Rx= 3.99.......SO.......FORGET Netflix.......Just stay here on the forum.....Bandwidth problem SOLVED!!!

 

Cheerz,

 

Dollytrolley

[Jack Mayer]

A park that has 28 sites is not gong to have a technical issue covering them and offering an excellent local network. Then, assuming they have access to adequate backhaul (lets say a 10mbps DSL line), there should be no issue providing an excellent experience to all their customers....potentially even if there are 5 devices in use per rig.

 

Now scale that up to lets say 150 sites spread out over 12-15 acres. Now come talk to me about how many "excellent" experiences you have in that environment.

 

This is not trivial stuff to implement and KEEP running well. And many RV parks do NOT have access to good backhaul, despite what "Internet experts" say. Some do, though, and in those cases there is at least the potential to put in a workable system assuming that streaming is limited.

 

There is a world of difference between covering a hotel in a constrained area and an RV park. Most hotels are pretty much trivial to cover well. And most have access to very good backhaul. That is the way it is.

 

Can an RV park that has very good backhaul put in a system that will allow for an excellent customer experience? The answer is YES. But it is non-trivial, and keeping it running at that level is also non-trivial.

[LFDR3116]

Signal repeaters throughtout the park .

[TxCowboy]

I could give you the same illustration using a 5 inch water main servicing 28 sites vs. that same 5 inch water main servicing 150 sites. If the RV park wants to have 150 sites, they must increase their infrastructure to support 150 sites or everybody suffers from low water pressure (or no water pressure!).

 

A few years ago, the only internet service I had available at my SnB home was satellite which is basically one step up from two tin cans and a string. After a couple of years, someone installed broadband DSL nearby that gave us up to 10 mpbs so we switched to that. Now we have fiber optic cable at my SnB home that provides 50 mpbs.

 

The bottom line is that there is an increasing demand for internet connectivity and suppliers respond. RV parks need to meet that demand. Ignoring the increasing demand doesn't make that demand go away. For those of us that require internet access (insert reason for that "requirement" here), it absolutely is a discriminator for which park we choose and which slot in that park that we choose.

[docj]

 

 

Can an RV park that has very good backhaul put in a system that will allow for an excellent customer experience? The answer is YES. But it is non-trivial, and keeping it running at that level is also non-trivial.

 

The 100 site park in PEI that we were at last summer was paying to have "real-time" support through a local network support group. They monitored activity at the RV parks and businesses they were providing access to at least 12-18 hours a day and could reallocate bandwidth, if necessary, between installations. I recognize that this sort of solution is pricey and isn't available to all parks, but it sure did work. Once I became the "technical interface" for the park owner, I could email the guy on duty in the evening about problems and could get responses back and usually "fixes" within minutes.

[Jack Mayer]

 

The bottom line is that there is an increasing demand for internet connectivity and suppliers respond. RV parks need to meet that demand. Ignoring the increasing demand doesn't make that demand go away.

You won't get any argument from me on that point.....

 

BUT first the available backhaul has to be there. In many cases it is not. Despite what people claim.

 

Where it is available you won't hear me arguing it should not be taken advantage of by RV parks. The real issue is lack of skills available to implement and maintain it. THAT is the bigger issue. Sure, there are places like Joel describes.And there are implementations of Tengo that operate very well. But the issue is that the AVERAGE situation is different than those.

 

Putting repeaters in everywhere can help if done right. But it is a maintenance-intensive solution. Multiple backhauls can also help a lot. Again, that adds complexity. Running fiber to every AP is a viable solution to better and more consistent speed. Running fiber to every 10th RV site and putting in Mesh repeaters is a viable solution - but only if you have multiple backhaul. There are LOTS of viable solutions. Each has pros/cons. But you still have to DO IT (lack of skills), you still have to DESIGN IT (lack of skills), and you still have to maintain it (lack of skills). How many here have the ability to terminate fiber, design these system, select proper equipment, configure it properly, put in specialized security devices that can monitor EVERY packet on the network, dynamically maintain the equipment, etc. Sure, you can hire someone if you can FIND them. Now what happens when a segment goes down, or you are hit with a network attack, or a single customer comes in with a NEW malware that attacks your network? It happens OFTEN. And remote management is not always a viable solution for these issues.

 

It is trivial to set up a local network with a consumer router and not much else. After that, it is not so trivial. Don't let anyone fool you otherwise.

[airstream harry]

You can't please everyone. We have many folks here at our park who don't want WIFI that will cost them more money. This week end a family with 4 kids was here. Each child had their own tablet all watching different streaming.

Some times we have folks here on the forum who boondock a lot and if the go to a park they don't want pools etc.,just low cost parking for short periods. They want great WIFI. I watch the owners of our park try to find a middle ground and it ain't easy folks.

c u on the road

[TxCowboy]

Jack, I think we all understand that, if the ISP has inadequate distribution architecture ("backhaul"), that is problematic. The RV park could have FIOS to each site but if the ISP backhaul is only broadband DSL, you are limited to DSL throughput. To use the plumbing analogy, it you only have 3 inch pipe coming to the park, connecting a 5 inch pipe from the RV park isn't going to fix anything.

 

However, the reverse of that is also true and I've seen that locally -- FIOS up to the RV park and then you are limited by the RV park's stoneage wireless router or worse, totally ignoring the FIOS at the curb and using satellite.

[Raquel]

(lack of skills)

 

Therein lies the problem. Almost anyone can fix the water pressure problem by adding in bigger pipe and almost anyone can do that. Grandpa did it. Dad did it. We learned by watching Grandpa and Dad. Now, we just call a plumber.

 

Anything to do with computers most "just want it to work". Most don't know that problems with wifi can be fixed and if we know it we don't know how. Like with the water pressure problem, we just need to understand that hiring a technician can help, just like hiring a plumber helps.

[cactus]

Get your own MiFi! People streaming movies is part of the reason parks do not have great WiFi. Streaming takes so much band width it causes everyone else to slow down. Or better yet, go rent the movie.

Medico!

Calm down. I have the same problem in my winter park.

And I`m paying for something I do not get to use

So if that is all you got to offer , stay out of the post

[Technomadia]

It'll be a wonderful day when RV Parks can reliably meet the demand their customers want as the internet consumes more and more data. And, some parks are totally rocking it, while others are way far behind.

 

For Escapee's parks, hopefully an influx of us Xscapers hitting the road with high expectations for bandwidth can help bring the point home - reliable internet is a must for many of today's RVers.

 

Until that time comes, we only consider campground WiFi to be a bonus when we can get it. As we absolutely rely on mobile internet for our work (and enjoy streaming content when we can) - we bring our own arsenal of solutions to ensure we can get online when we need or desire it.

 

We actually just published an article yesterday about some alternate ways to get unlimited cellular data for streaming video content - heck, T-Mobile is even encouraging it on their unlimited plans. Unlimited Entertainment: Getting HBO (and more) on the Road

 

- Cherie

[chirakawa]

Isn't it amazing how this internet thing has taken over our lives? How did we live without it 25 years ago?

 

I remember when my parents were fulltiming. Their biggest electronics concern was how us kids could get in touch with them in an emergency. There was even a special answering service set up just for RV'ers.

 

Stop the world and let me off for a few rev's.

[GlennWest]

Don't never want to go back. Mail payroll checks, call from phone booths, etc. Internet and cell phones makes full timing much better. I really don't depend on rv parks for internet. We teater our cell phones.

[Darryl&Rita]

Interesting diveide going on. Older crowd that's been there/done that, and the newest target audience of the head office, the younger crowd. While I truly appreciate the "supply your own", I also appreciate quality WiFi. Parks will either adapt or perish. Excuses won't cut it.

[sushidog]

Isn't it amazing how this internet thing has taken over our lives? How did we live without it 25 years ago?

 

I remember when my parents were fulltiming. Their biggest electronics concern was how us kids could get in touch with them in an emergency. There was even a special answering service set up just for RV'ers.

 

Stop the world and let me off for a few rev's.

Yep, it is now the determining factor in influencing even controlling people's decisions, just as health care insurance often does. Once you need something (or believe you do) the providers are free to charge what the market will bear. I know some folks with $150/month cell phone bills. They obviously feel they need it, and maybe their business needs justifies it. For us, I would rather pay $300 a month for a 30amp site without any internet service than $350 for a 50amp site with streaming video access. But I'm an old fart, with no online business or social needs. Basic e-mail and forum use and I'm good to go. I can get that type of access free at many retail businesses, grocery stores, coffee shops, etc., so CG wifi is not a need - more of a curiosity to me than even a luxury, let alone a staple, like electricity or water like it is for some. I rather enjoy the slow pace and peace of not being connected all the time and save a couple bucks in the process. Remember how peaceful it was before cell phones when no one could contact you instantly 24/7 and you weren't all stressed about it? It's like the freedom gained by not wearing a watch, so I'm not controlled by knowing the exact time, watching my life slip away as drops of blood as it counts down the minutes to my death.

 

The solution to me is a 2-3 tiered CG service. For the more remote areas of an RV park to have fewer ameneties at a lower rate to cater to the almost extinct dodo bird crowd like me. Then have another ring of moderately priced camp sites with limited WiFi access, with an elite inner sanctum of premium sites where the customers are willing to pay the higher daily rate, just like 50 amp access gets daily surcharge, at whatever rate is necessary to provide the latest and greatest, whizbang, streaming, multi-device, hi-def hologram service. Of course the percentage of each type of site will be dictated by customer demand and will vary for each area. So if a customer gets a mid-grade service going in and is not satisfied, they can upgrade to a faster site (if available) with superior access - for a fee. That way they won't lose me as a customer, because I refuse to pay for something I am not using, like paying $2-3/day more for 50 amp service if I only have a 30 amp hook-up. This seems a better solution than metered WiFi , as equipt. costs can be greatly reduced so those who are not using the system don't have to pay for system maintenance and upgrades, allowing the CG to be more profitable and still attract all levels of customers, giving them the service they desire and everyone gets exactly what they pay for.

 

Chip

[docj]

Interesting diveide going on. Older crowd that's been there/done that, and the newest target audience of the head office, the younger crowd. While I truly appreciate the "supply your own", I also appreciate quality WiFi. Parks will either adapt or perish. Excuses won't cut it.

 

On many RV forums it's apparent that the older crowd often fails to understand that the use of the internet has evolved rapidly. Yes, when they first learned to use email that's pretty much all anyone was able to do, but today people's expectations have expanded to include video and gaming as normal parts of their internet "experience."

 

Telling people they are "selfish" when they try to stream is naive IMO because you are telling people not to do something that they routinely do at home. If someone takes his family camping for the weekend and all his children have internet connected devices, do you really expect that your admonishments not to "abuse" the wifi are going to heeded? Yes, he should bring his own internet, but when you, the park owner, advertised "free wifi" didn't you provide an expectation of a service that he could rely on?

 

If you run an RV park where adequate backhaul bandwidth isn't available, maybe you'd be better served by not having wifi at all, rather than inadequate wifi that annoys your customers. If you are a park in an area where you could provide adequate wifi but are too cheap to do so, don't worry, one of your competitors will provide it and you won't have to worry because you won't be in business.

 

As an administrator of RVParkReviews.com, I can say without hesitation that poor wifi continues to be the single most complained about aspect of RV parks today. As a park owner, if you ignore this you do so at your own risk.

[mptjelgin]

I look at this a bit like campgrounds providing cable TV. Most folks have grown up watching plenty of television, and yet some campgrounds continue to offer nothing, or perhaps the most basic cable, while others offer deluxe packages with hundreds of channels. We have our own satellite setup and so do not consider the availability of deluxe cable in our campground choices. We've already paid for the satellite, got the DVR programmed, and so there is no desire to use the campground system.

 

Same with our wi-fi. I've got the system in place, all of the computers and printers are linked to the router, and so I don't choose campgrounds based on wi-fi availability. It just doesn't impact the quality of my stay.

 

Perhaps there are folks who make the availability of deluxe cable TV a "must have" when choosing campgrounds, as there are those who consider deluxe wi-fi a must have. But based on my observations both in public and private campgrounds, many folks consider neither to be essential or even important.

 

As several others have pointed out, the market will ultimately sort this out. But I won't be surprised if beautiful campgrounds with large spaces, but no cable TV or wi-fi, continue to thrive.

[gr8white]

I think docj hit the nail on the head.

[wa_desert_rat]

Interesting diveide going on. Older crowd that's been there/done that, and the newest target audience of the head office, the younger crowd. While I truly appreciate the "supply your own", I also appreciate quality WiFi. Parks will either adapt or perish. Excuses won't cut it.

Remember that this thread started with the question: "How Can Escapees have everything right about RVing except internet at their parks?" I think most of the responses have edged away from that topic and have addressed RV parks in general. But SKP parks are not like RV parks in general.

 

The OP is in the Livingston, TX park and if he were an Escapee member (for a paltry $29 for a full year) he'd be paying only $21 a night for an RV park that has amazed him at how perfect the park is.

 

But he's not happy. Because he thinks that for his $21 a night he should get great WiFi too.

 

For $40 a night I'd expect a great park and good WiFi.

 

For $50 a night I'd expect a great park and great WiFi.

 

For $80 a night I'd expect an amazing RV park experience and WiFi that was better than I could get at home.

 

For $21 a night I think I'd settle for a great RV park and deal with my own WiFi.

 

WDR

[gr8white]

Wa_desert_rat, Although I appreciate your reply I strongly disagree. As previously stated, I have been on the road since July and this is my first time I have had a problem with wi fi for the little needs I have for bandwidth. And I have paid the 22.00 per day on a lot of occasions. The small data emails that I send and receive all day has never been a problem until I got here. Netflix has not always been great but I don’t use it much and am not figuring that into my comparison although I brought it up in my original post. I really think it is an age gap. I am 40 years old and very good with computers and internet. Every other forum I belong to, shares my thoughts on wi fi. Docj writes for an Rv magazine and agrees with me. In the end I believe it really is an age gap. My generation understands and the older generation does not. I wish I were retired (as I suspect most are on this forum) and didn’t have to depend on the net as much as I do. I do in fact have great backup with Verizon. But everywhere else I have been, I have not needed that backup. I might be on the wrong forum based solely on my age because I feel that 75% of the posters here cannot sympathize with me where 75% of the RV population as a whole does agree. I use Escapees as a mail service and pay a fee. And I will still stay at their parks often. But as I have stated several times before, “how can they have everything else right but the wifi”? I have not gotten many responses to this question at all. In fact, most responses were posters trying to give me lessons on not using netflix and how I should not expect good wifi. I disagree based on 10 months experience in several parks.

[Jack Mayer]

 

If you run an RV park where adequate backhaul bandwidth isn't available, maybe you'd be better served by not having wifi at all, rather than inadequate wifi that annoys your customers. If you are a park in an area where you could provide adequate wifi but are too cheap to do so, don't worry, one of your competitors will provide it and you won't have to worry because you won't be in business.

 

I totally agree with this. And, in fact, a number of my previous customer base has REMOVED the equipment I put in. NOT because it was not working well. In all cases it was working as expected. They took it out because the constant complaints about no streaming was not worth it to them. In every one of those parks it was not POSSIBLE to offer streaming because of the backhaul. This was made clear at check in and in the wifi sheets passed out. But rather than not meet an expectation of a customer I feel it is better to simply remove the service.

 

It will be nice when the technology allows reliable streaming everywhere. But that is not todays reality, and any amount of wishful thinking will not make it so.

[Jack Mayer]

I really think it is an age gap. I am 40 years old and very good with computers and internet. Every other forum I belong to, shares my thoughts on wi fi. Docj writes for an Rv magazine and agrees with me. In the end I believe it really is an age gap. My generation understands and the older generation does not.

 

I have not gotten many responses to this question at all. In fact, most responses were posters trying to give me lessons on not using netflix and how I should not expect good wifi. I disagree based on 10 months experience in several parks.

Well, I'm 64 and I'd put my computer skills up against anyone. So I think I "understand" just fine. Having designed and installed the networks you are discussing - and still doing so - I think I'm in a good position to answer your question. And I have explained some of the factors involved in implementing a network that many parks encounter.

 

As far as your specific question I can only guess at an answer. And that is that probably there is not much bandwidth available at the Livingston location. But it is strictly a guess, and based on what I know about that area of Polk County. However, that is not all of it, because clearly there should be enough bandwidth to handle email, and TenGo can throttle video without much effort, so email and web browsing should be "pretty good" on most installations.

[docj]

Docj writes for an Rv magazine and agrees with me. In the end I believe it really is an age gap.

 

I'm not sure what RV magazine I write for, but, for your information, I'm about to turn 68. Staying current with technology doesn't have anything to do with age; it's an attitude.