How Can Escapees have everything right about RVing except internet at their parks?

[Newt]

Kirk, just an FYI. After speaking with alot of the park residents and the staff about this issue. It is hands down the number one compliant that they hear here.

 

They have chosen to use Tengonet as a provider. As you can see from the comments, Tengonet makes very few people happy. Our current park has Tengonet, it sucks. So, I am posting this using my cell phone hot spot.

 

Newt

[wa_desert_rat]

Bandwidth and data are not the same things. Bandwidth is how fast you can upload or download data. Data is usually considered to be the aggregate of up and down bits passing the router from your location. You buy the ability to get higher bandwidth; then you pay for more data.

 

A park pays for the infrastructre too- not just the upstream connection . One way is the link to their upstream provider who gets paid depending upon the type of connection. If they connect fiber to the RV park that costs more than if they can use copper wire. Sometimes the uplink is also via microwave (or even WiFi). That connection costs far less than fiber or copper but is still not free and the costs multiply depending upon the terrain, trees, buildings, and frequency.

 

Then there are router costs. The RV park has to have a router and it's likely not the same $79 Netgear router you used at your house. It's probably a Cisco router and it's also likely that the guy who admins that router is NOT getting paid minimum wage. Cisco routers are not inexpensive to buy and are also not inexpensive to keep since you have to pay a yearly support fee in order to be able to install software updates or get help in configuration.

 

The topography of the RV park can also make access difficult. Parks that can simply put one antenna up and let every RV connect to it are rare. It often takes a lot of engineering and design to make a good network and guys who are competent at doing it - like Jack - don't come cheap. In fact, they often don't come at all given the rural nature of many RV parks it can be impossible to find a competent network engineer locally; so they pay for someone to come from a big city (with a crew) to do it.

 

And buying sufficient bandwidth and data to allow a full park of RVs unlimited downloading is something that no park can afford. So they have to allocate it. And someone always gets less than they want (or expect).

 

It's not like television, after all.

 

WDR

[Jimalberta]

Like I said in my earlier post.....the Hotels, Motels and restaurants get it......wifi is important to people.......the RV parks don't get it....yet.

[Kirk W]

Kirk, just an FYI. After speaking with alot of the park residents and the staff about this issue. It is hands down the number one compliant that they hear here.

Not much point in telling me this since I'm just a member like most everyone else. If you have a point to make, you need to contact a member of management who can actually influence the decisions and use of resources.

[GR "Scott" Cundiff]

I don't think the park can win. If it provides decent WiFi people will come in and saturate it downloading movies. If it provides poor WiFi people will complain about it. I'm guessing that over time parks will continue to provide "clubhouse only" levels of WiFi while people who really want/need internet will provide their own, cell-based, solutions.

 

Now, this will have numerous exceptions -- maybe just enough of them to keep some folks frustrated.

[RV_]

gr8white,

Welcome to the Escapees forums!

 

I can empathize with you.

 

I remember when we started RVing we had to carry our computers up to the park offices and if we were lucky they would let us plug into their Fax line. Yes we were RVing back in the dark days before cell phones, and the only GPS' were on the dash and connected to a Windows 95 and later 98SE laptop, and all Internet was dial up or ISDN, the first voice and data service for some businesses. Most park owners back in 1997 looked at us like we were speaking another language. Many had no idea what the Internet was. And before they let us hook up they made sure the access number was toll free. Then within two years we started to see them everywhere adding lines in the rec room or waiting area or the public activity centers. Things like finding EarthLink had no lines in Alaska in 99 put a real crimp in our style. I understand the feeling because when we went RVing we were connected and I had already come back from owning a dial up ISP in Germany for a couple of years that we started up. There were no real smart phones and everyone who had a cell phone was lucky to connect for just voice in many places. We didn't get a cell phone until after we came off the road in 2003.

 

Back then we took for granted toll free dial up and were just as irritated when we had to wait in line to plug in.

 

Today I still hear Bandwidth hogs and like in the old dial up days that term, even the concept is fading fast in every stationary segment of the country save the Mobile folks. I would feel much as you do if I left unknowingly to travel and assume that every park would have cable connections to each space and cable TV along with data rentable. My bandwidth on wired copper cable Internet today is limited to 250 GB of bandwidth per month and I don't believe we've ever used more than 75 GB in any one month. Expecting the same on the road is unthinkable and the folks on the road get pretty riled at anyone expecting more.

 

There is some possible good news on the horizon quite literally. Google just invested a billion dollars along with another partner in Elon Musk's SpaceX for a launch and technology solution to deploying a net of LEO (Low Earth Orbit) micro satellites to provide cell and Internet services. It is unclear at this time whether it will just be sold commercially, to resellers or if they will in fact sell bandwidth themselves. The current VSAT two way Internet by satellite is using GEO (Geostationary Orbit) satellites with a very high latency, or delay, making them difficult to use for fast reaction games or telephony. It can be done but they also share the transponders so they also still have the problems of bandwidth hogs, and can slow down to dial up or slow DSL speeds during high demand peak hours. LEO satellites will have even less latency than many current land based tower cells. And they will not require any special equipment as they will be much higher power transponders than the old Iridium LEO Sat Phones. But they will have the same world wide spanning service. Since Google is involved I would guess they would want to sell it themselves and listen in, in exchange for limited free access and bandwidth, or very inexpensive higher bandwidth service just like they do now with Google Fiber. The announcement was made just a couple of months ago and they are now out to satellite design manufacturers coming up with a design to try. Musk has the launch vehicles so no issue there like Bill Gates had at the turn of the century trying to do the same thing. ( Interesting history as Craig McCaw was also involved: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2595691/financial-it/gates--others-invest-in-satellite-venture.html )

 

So look to the skies, but like data by cell phone, at speeds sufficient to compete with home dial up did not come about as fast as I would have liked, back then, this gives no immediate relief today. But as stated for biz you can get VSAT or expand your cell data to cover it. Yes we could/should be much further along, especially in view of the fact that we invented cell phones in the US, but special interests would rather hold back any competition, and spend millions lobbying against them, than spend millions upgrading their own systems. The ULA ( United Launch Alliance - Boeing and Lockheed primarily) actually did spend millions lobbying inside the beltway trying to keep their monopoly on US military and ISS resupply and manning transport missions. Musk sued back and won enough contracts for resupply missions to perfect his Falcon launch vehicles. It is funny but all that angst against SpaceX, Musk's company was wasted. Just this past year when we voiced our displeasure with Putin's actions in the Ukraine, he told us to cram it, Russia would sell no more rocket engines to the US. Huh? Yep, the ULA made no rocket engines just the payload capsules etc.! They sure got egg on their face because they have no certified rockets to replace the Atlas IVs powered by the Russian Rocket engines.

 

However Musk's SpaceX was ready since their Falcon systems are just now finishing up certifications. So the irony is that they tried to keep a monopoly but n]by their own behaviors and lack of doing the rocket science required to save money, they just gave SpaceX a virtual monopoly for three years, which is how long it will take until they are able to get their new motors certified. Let's also remember that the major partner, Boeing, had to ground a fleet of their jets worldwide for several months because of issues with their Lithium Ion batteries catching fire. Musk offered to help and they declined. I'd say they need to learn to play nicely with others.

 

So there you are. My assessment of your best chance to connect like at home. Coming, by my reckoning, within the decade at worst, five years at best.

 

In the meantime lower your expectations and figure out what you need and what you want and how to buy it. From the air for data and cell for voice has been good for many. Others do cell data as needed and deduct it as a biz expense. However I have noticed that the price of BluRay movies and DVD movies in Pawn shops and Goodwill stores in this area are down to $1.99 for DVDs and $3.99 for BluRays. I also know that the pawn shops will likely charge less if you buy twenty or more. I love my music and enjoy perusing the 99 cent music CDs. I can rip them for my own use and add them to my growing collection. Most of them today are also pristine because folks rip theirs too, to play in their players. That's cheaper than Amazon and perfectly legal. See, disk are on the way out just like vinyl was. I usually can select ten CDs and pay 50 cents each for them.

 

If I were on the road full time today that's what I would do. Get cheap good condition disks for movies ten at a time. You can donate them back to Goodwill and deduct them too!

 

Anyway welcome and enjoy what you can and smile at the rest. That really annoys people!

[Jack Mayer]

Like I said in my earlier post.....the Hotels, Motels and restaurants get it......wifi is important to people.......the RV parks don't get it....yet.

A motel or single building like a restaurant is TRIVIAL to supply wifi to. The Hotel is the most complex of these mentioned and that is far easier than most of the RV Parks. Especially if multiple backhaul sources are available.

 

Some RV parks are simple. Not very large, totally open with good line of sight. Only one AP required.

 

Most RV parks are more difficult. Spread out, trees,etc. Most have limited backhaul or one-location of backhaul, only. It is not as easy as many people make it out to be.

 

Sure, you can throw in a consumer grade router with wireless and do OK in a clubhouse. Until you have issues because of loading, etc. But to put professional grade equipment in is a totally different proposition. It requires careful design, configuration and ongoing management. How many RV parks are you aware of that have those capabilities.

[skp51443]

Looking at the cost for a park to get an acceptable connection to the Internet I see a big monthly expense if connectivity is actually available at all. If you don't have something close by add in the cost of several thousand per mile to run the connection.

 

To get from the park's network connection to your computer or device then needs a good bit of hardware starting with a much more robust router than you are going to find at WalMart or BestBuy. Some of the Open Source ones are pretty good but they need a decent PC to run on and while the software is free support aside from a help forum or the like isn't free. Then you need the WiFi network, either a lot of expensive and damage-prone wires or expensive access points, radios and antennas. Support for them isn't going to be free after a brief introduction period either.

 

You can skimp on the above but every bit you go cheap on is going to hurt the overall system, skimp enough to make it affordable to provide free WiFi and your system will be pretty pitiful.

 

You can outsource the whole mess to Tengo or someone else, that doesn't mean it isn't going to work it just gives you someone to point a finger at and gets you out of the support picture. Tengo or whoever will also face the connect to the Internet issue and they aren't going to be providing a fast several hundred dollar per month connection for peanuts.

 

I don't see any situation where a park can win at WiFi, it will either be pretty pitiful or pretty expensive. Pitiful has unhappy campers, expensive has you making less money or charging more. You making less money probably isn't going to be your first choice of options. If you charge more all the folks with their own connections are going to be looking for cheaper parks.

[gr8white]

These posts are very confusing because as stated twice earlier, I have been on the road and staying at numerous RV parks and they already have the wi fi figured out and provide amazing wi fi. I have not had 1 SINGLE PROBLEM with Wi Fi until I got here at Escapees. The nature of this post was not asking when parks will figure out how to get good wifi because in my experience they all already have it besides Escapees, it was not asking you folks to give me a lesson on getting my own wifi (which I see numerous folks telling me) or for you to tell me not to use netflix. The reason for the post was simply asking how every other park (in my experience anyway), has wi fi figured out already but the Escapees park (who is the best I have seen in every other aspect), does not have it figured out. I appreciate all of the comments but you are missing the point of my original post. Maybe I asked the wrong way? I hope that I am not sounding too harsh but these are the facts.

[Jack Mayer]

There definitely are parks that have decent wifi. That service may vary over the time of day, though, and you experience may be time-related to a large extent some places.

 

There are far more parks - likely the majority of RV parks with wifi - that do not provide satisfactory service at the RV site. I use a figure of 1.5 mbps at the site as a base measure of satisfactory service. At that level most web browsing is fine, and Youtube videos are mostly OK. HD movies will not be OK.

 

If you are finding satisfactory service everywhere you have been - and that is more than a handful of parks - you are indeed fortunate.

[mptjelgin]

We have traveled from Texas to Maine to Idaho to the Florida Keys in the past 5 years, and have found that campgrounds with "excellent" wi-fi are very much in the minority. We generally check the campground wi-fi to see if we can use it instead of our own broadband, and in most cases we give up rather quickly. And that is mainly for internet browsing and occasional YouTube, as we never attempt to stream movies.

 

To be fair, if the campground is largely unoccupied the wi-fi may be fine. But by late afternoon, as more rigs arrive and as more folks likley begin surfing/streaming we find that campground wi-fi becomes too slow to tolerate.

[docj]

 

They have chosen to use Tengonet as a provider. As you can see from the comments, Tengonet makes very few people happy. Our current park has Tengonet, it sucks. So, I am posting this using my cell phone hot spot.

 

 

 

Tengonet gets a bad rap because they haven't been holding park owners accountable for buying adequate bandwidth (backhaul) for their parks. So Tengo can design a great wifi system for a park and then the owner is too cheap to pay for adequate service (or can't get it in some locations). As a result all the patrons blame the mess on Tengo. It's my understanding that Tengo management may be waking up to this fact and realizing that they are shooting themselves in the foot with end use customers because of it.

[TxCowboy]

I think we can all agree that the demand for faster, more reliable, and more robust internet services isn't going to decline.

 

On my home network, I have 15+ devices that piggyback off that network. In the RV, we currently have two laptops, 2 phones, a wireless printer, and soon will add a couple of internet-ready televisions, a DVR, a Genie connection, and who knows what else that may be tied into the RV wireless network and then the park's wifi system.

 

People today spend big bucks for electronic capabilities -- streaming music and video, internet-enabled gaming systems, and, for me, some business apps including some graphic-intensive apps and teleconferencing, and a ton of other bandwidth and through-put intensive applications.

 

If we want to have the RV parks upgrade their systems, we have to let them know what our wants and needs really are. The RV park owners need to understand that having this internet backbone in place isn't a luxury, it is a requirement that people expect to see present in their RV park. This robust wifi system can then be used as a selling point (marketing) for the RV park . Add an dollar or two to the nightly charge to cover the cost. Folks will likely be willing to pay it.

 

Just my $.02 worth.

[LFDR3116]

Not true that everyone will come in a excessively download movies. We are in a park that has excellent wifi to every site in the park. There is no charge for the wifi, and our site cost per day is $12. Their service is thru AT&T. Once in awhile someone comes thru that is doing something that slows everyone down, but not very often. We have spent a total of 12 months in this park in the last 2 years, and are on the internet a lot, so we know if it gets slowed down. If this small campground (28 sites) can do this, so can the others. Interesting fact -- many of the restaurants and businesses provide this service thru AT&T also (can tell when we connect). I'm sure there is something for businesses available thru Verizon and many others.

 

If we stop at a park that does not have internet, we may stay a couple of days, but lack of internet would keep us from staying for a longer period of time.

 

Another park we frequent and have spent time at also has great wifi. Their's is in the clubhouse, but it's set up like a comfortable living room, so very comfortable to spend a few hours surfing.

[skp51443]

It has been a while since I saw the innards of a Tengo park system but they used to use Linksys home routers, WRTxxx somethings for their systems. Even with custom firmware you just can't push that grade of hardware very hard.

[TheDuke]

I think that TXCowboy is right about a lot of things. This is now an electronic world. It is so common to find RVers that have 4 or more electronic devices to connect to the internet. 2 laptops, 2 tablets, 2 phones, and even printers. Wait that is 7 devices.

Because of the poor results from using a CG internet, way too many RVers have gone the private way, including me. Paying $80, $100, a month and even more just to get service that is usable is very common. Even at that, there are many times that tower system is overloaded. 6 to 10 pm is a typical time for slowdowns.

The few times I have tried to use a Motel system has not been a happy situation for me.

Why couldn't a company like Tengonet with some other national services, solve this by putting in a system that allows RVers to connect up to their system and have us pay a monthly fee for the service. This would have to be outside the parks system. As we go from park to park, we would connect to their system using our monthly logon.

Before anyone says, it can't happen, remember the dial-up systems which you could use no matter where you were at? AOL became a very large company by having that capability.

Unfortunately I don't believe it will happen, but what did people say when the internet was starting to grow, what use would cell phones be back in the 90's.

[docj]

It has been a while since I saw the innards of a Tengo park system but they used to use Linksys home routers, WRTxxx somethings for their systems. Even with custom firmware you just can't push that grade of hardware very hard.

 

I can tell you that much of what Tengo uses today is far better hardware. But they've done themselves a terrible disservice IMO by not controlling the entire solution.

[jpatrickc]

I'm not sure the comparison to restaurants and fast food places is a good comparison. Most people there are just browsing, looking at emails and using social media sites. They are not streaming Vladislav at high resolution or trying to downloading large OS updates. They also typically only have 1 device.

[Mike and Claudia]

We have been volunteering for over 10 years and have found one state park that had VERY GOOD internet and one Church Camp that had it.

 

Our site at the state park is right across the road from the bathroom that has the connection and the church camp had received a large donation specifically to put in Wi-Fi in the camp.

 

All of the others have ranged from fair to poor. We have a "Netgear" "Unite" wi-fi generator that Usually works good, although it is even sometimes iffy.

 

When we started Volunteering, lo those many years ago, we had to take our eight pound Dell Laptop into town and try to get wi-fi at the Public :Library, so it is all a "work in progress".

 

When Kirk started, he used smoke signals.

[Dennis M]

I think the OP needs to pay a little more attention to what people are very nicely trying to tell him. Not to put too fine a point on it, streaming movies on any park WiFi is inconsiderate and rude. Period.

 

Pay for your own band width if you want to have that kind of usage.

[wa_desert_rat]

I have not had 1 SINGLE PROBLEM with Wi Fi until I got here at Escapees. The nature of this post was not asking when parks will figure out how to get good wifi because in my experience they all already have it besides Escapees, it was not asking you folks to give me a lesson on getting my own wifi (which I see numerous folks telling me) or for you to tell me not to use netflix. The reason for the post was simply asking how every other park (in my experience anyway), has wi fi figured out already but the Escapees park (who is the best I have seen in every other aspect), does not have it figured out. I appreciate all of the comments but you are missing the point of my original post. Maybe I asked the wrong way? I hope that I am not sounding too harsh but these are the facts.

Maybe you didn't take our posts in the way they were intended. SKP parks typically charge $20 or so per night. Good WiFi (as we have been trying to tell you) costs a lot of money.

 

These two facts are not unrelated. If you want fast WiFi then go to a park where you have to pony up the bucks for it.

 

WDR

[Jimalberta]

We never stream movies at RV parks even if they have good wifi. I consider that rude and selfish to slow it down for everyone else.

[docj]

Despite the protestations from people who say they never stream movies, I'd be real surprised if some or all of those same folks didn't engage in Skyping to grandchildren or watching cute animal videos on Facebook. The net effect is the same as streaming a movie. It's hard to even read news stories these days without encountering embedded video which runs unless you know how to prevent it. Everyone's usage is up unless you're one of those people who gets on the internet just to download email and then gets off.

 

IMHO this is the real underlying problem. It's a lot more than just people streaming Netflix (although I did see some statistics that claimed more than half the internet traffic in the evenings is due to Netflix). My wife and I used to use ~5 GB/mo for casual surfing; now it's nearly twice that.

[k4rs]

Why couldn't a company like Tengonet with some other national services, solve this by putting in a system that allows RVers to connect up to their system and have us pay a monthly fee for the service. This would have to be outside the parks system. As we go from park to park, we would connect to their system using our monthly logon.

 

 

I think you have just described Boingo:

 

http://www.boingo.com/retail/boingo-wi-fi-plans/

 

Safe Travels...

[Bill Joyce]

Tengo is hooked up with Boingo. We were just at a campground that uses Tengo, which is free for overnighters, and the sign up page had Boingo on it. The Tengo speeds were 3G speeds, around 1 to 1.5 down, 0.5 up.