Singling a T2000 in Portland

[Scrap]

Yea probably 80-90% of them were DS404 or DSP40.

[Darryl&Rita]

Scrap, how about a list of Paccar suspension systems that could be used to replace an AG-200?

[Scrap]

Like in what context? As singling? As tandem update/retrofit? As something that was available on a T2/T7? As something Paccar makes so you don't put a Freightliner hiney on? [i should disown Phil ]

[Darryl&Rita]

Sorry,should have worded that better. Specifically,what systems were available, in single, tandem, or as part of a tri, that would work as a non-factory single. I think i heard that a Pete Low Leaf system was an easy suspension to single. I haven't committed to a full rework of the rear end, but WHEN I'm doing the work to the axle, that would be the time.

[hongisto]

The basics are pretty simple. You cut the seats off the fwd axle, flip them around and weld them to your rear axle. You cut the spring beams off your fwd axle and weld them to your rear axle. You cut the tower off your rear axle, massage it some with a grinder to make it sit square, then weld it back on at 2 deg back from vertical. Then you install an AG230 notched swaybar, somehow reinstall and route your equalizer lines, align it, and you are done.

 

The gotcha's are what start to add up and make it complicated. You can't reliably cut and splice your equalizer lines and I don't think they make the 15yr old AG200 6x2 airbag fittings anymore. So you have to go down to Pape and get four current 9" AG400 (not AG230 - they are 10.5") o-ring bags and todays AG230 bag fittings. Added bonus is the o-ring bags don't leak. Today's thru-bolt tower holds much better than the old threaded AG200 tower so you might as well get one of those while you have it cut off. Todays Hadley leveling valve is miles ahead of the AG200's Neway valve, so you might as well add one of those while it is apart and while you are welding on its new bowl attaching bracket. Today's lower shock mount takes a ton of frustration out of replacing a shock so you might as well weld on a couple of those and the new shocks while at Pape. The update list goes on and on...

 

Some notes on the above:

 

You can't just drop the front and hook in to the rear. It leaves the rear at 14 degrees when it needs to be at 2 degrees. You have to change seats, spring beams, and upper tower to fix this. You also can't use a straight swaybar. Once you get to 2 degrees the input yoke will hit a straight swaybar. You must have the notched bar of the AG230. It is unavoidable and a single axle needs to be built with the 1pc swaybar anyways.

 

You can't drop the rear and keep the front. You set up a leading link suspension and I'm sure you know the troubles that causes. Yes it is used on tridems and 72" AS Canadian trucks but there are also a couple more axles involved to keep everything in line. You really shouldn't keep the wishbone setup for the same reasons. The threaded pins are supposed to flex and wobble. That turns into a rear steer when there is only one axle back there.

 

Short of the leading link problems, you can replace the fwd carrier with a S170E carrier. It'll fit right in, has splines to fit the same yokes, bolt right to your same driveline, and is made to be a single. Downside is that is an $8K carrier! I've never done it, but I still think you can pull your interaxle diff and output pinion shaft out and replace it with an S170E "power divider" shaft and turn your existing carrier into the same thing. You'd have to weld a cap on your output hole as well. Downside of that is that it is a $1200 shaft! So that science project doesn't really add up either. Both of those options still keep your pinion drop gears so the whole thing doesn't give you the fuel advantages a normal single axle gives either. So that route doesn't really win in the end but it is fun to think about.

 

Sometimes you get lucky on drivelines and you get a 1710 main D/L that matches your interaxle D/L. Usually that is found on low torque engines and/or highway 10 speeds without a deep reduction 1st gear. But more often than not in the 90s and 2000's you have a 1850/SPL 250 main and a 1710 or SPL 170 I/A.

 

The HAS 210 isn't a good choice over 1000 ft lbs as mentioned. It is way torque reactive and a bad/new driver with a big engine can rip it apart. Actually changing the same truck from an Airglide to any trailing arm suspension I think would be pretty disappointing. It is one thing to get used to it in the behavior of an all new truck, but as a mod it seems like all the ups and downs and rolling around would make the same truck turn annoying. Anyways, the only T2 single axle suspension was a Neway, and even at that only Dillard's trucks had them.

 

The oil cap for a non-driven drive axle hub is a Stemco 340-4119.

Thanks for the detailed rundown. Obviously, you have a great deal of knowledge on this topic. I don't understand everything you are telling me, but I am getting the general idea that trying to modify the AG200 is not a practical solution.

 

From re-reading a couple of times, I think you've addressed the idea of just losing either the front of the rear axle, but how about the idea discussed above with Deezl of just leaving both assemblies in place, removing the axle shafts only from the front axle and locking the diverter just to channel power to the rear axle? No angle changes, no driveline splices, no bag moves. Deezl had speculated that driving only the rear axle with the diverter locked might not be a durability issue. What do you think?

[Deezl Smoke]

Thanks for the detailed rundown. Obviously, you have a great deal of knowledge on this topic. I don't understand everything you are telling me, but I am getting the general idea that trying to modify the AG200 is not a practical solution.

 

From re-reading a couple of times, I think you've addressed the idea of just losing either the front of the rear axle, but how about the idea discussed above with Deezl of just leaving both assemblies in place, removing the axle shafts only from the front axle and locking the diverter just to channel power to the rear axle? No angle changes, no driveline splices, no bag moves. Deezl had speculated that driving only the rear axle with the diverter locked might not be a durability issue. What do you think?

 

With the divider locked, it is much more durable. Sorry if I made it sound opposite. It is only when tandem axles are both driven on surfaces that do not allow scrubbing off the minute differences in gearing that a locked divider ill cause issues with the helical gears and bearings. But a locked divider is virtually as strong as a solid shaft. In some case, even stronger. It is a lubrication issue that must be addressed when removing more than the axle shafts. But if lubrication of the divider shaft is met, then removing the carrier and ring gear can be done, reducing weight and increasing mileage.

[hongisto]

 

With the divider locked, it is much more durable. Sorry if I made it sound opposite. It is only when tandem axles are both driven on surfaces that do not allow scrubbing off the minute differences in gearing that a locked divider ill cause issues with the helical gears and bearings. But a locked divider is virtually as strong as a solid shaft. In some case, even stronger. It is a lubrication issue that must be addressed when removing more than the axle shafts. But if lubrication of the divider shaft is met, then removing the carrier and ring gear can be done, reducing weight and increasing mileage.

You were clear the first time....I did understand what you meant. Just wondering about Scrap's take on doing it that way.

[Phil D]

Like in what context? As singling? As tandem update/retrofit? As something that was available on a T2/T7? As something Paccar makes so you don't put a Freightliner hiney on? [i should disown Phil ]

 

Scrap, it's all Kenworth's fault that I had to go with the FAS II. If they'd come out with the AG230 ten years sooner and there had been some in the boneyards back in 2008, I'd have much rather gone that route and kept the truck all KW. For that matter, had the parts been available to do so back then, I would have asked the shop that singled it if they'd have been willing to just convert my AG200 to an AG230, but y'all were still developing them at the time.

 

My preference at the time was to go with that Hendrickson-suspended single out of that T300 that they'd located, but I couldn't live with the either 3.70 or 3.90 gears that were in it, and that's what the guys that were singling the truck wanted to go with, too. If both trucks had been built with Meritor axles, the carriers would have swapped and I'd have kept the 3.55 (okay, if it had been a Meritor it would have been a 3.58) carrier that was in the rear axle of my truck, but the 23k Dana axle from the T300 used a different carrier from the Dana tandems in the T2000.

[Phil D]

Sorry,should have worded that better. Specifically,what systems were available, in single, tandem, or as part of a tri, that would work as a non-factory single. I think i heard that a Pete Low Leaf system was an easy suspension to single. I haven't committed to a full rework of the rear end, but WHEN I'm doing the work to the axle, that would be the time.

 

Yes, the Pete Low Air Leaf suspension appears to be easy to single. What makes it a poor candidate for what we do is that it's got inboard shocks, IIRC. That's not a problem if the truck in question has plenty of room somewhere between the axle, crossmember, and the hitch for the shock mounts, but most don't.

[hongisto]

Just to ad a bit about the power divider gear head. The divider (differentiating gears) is stronger when engaged than when operating open. However, on road surfaces that do not allow the tires to scrub off any less than perfect gearing differences, the locked divider will impose tremendous strain on the helical gears and bearings that support them, that reverse the pinion rotation in the front driver gear head.

 

The military 6x6 trucks up into the late 90s anyway, do not have a power divider. They are locked solid between the two rear drive axles. They are hard on tires. They can do this mostly because they do not run the reverse rotation gears for the front pinion. They run a double reduction system with the primary pinions rotating the same direction.

 

I would'nt suggest that someone run the diver gear head as their only axle as the full load is then on those reverse rotation gears and bearings. But to use the divider gear head in lock as a means to power the rear axle only, though inefficient, would be quite strong. That is assuming the previous operator did not mess up the locking teeth.

 

IMO.

Still looking for opinions on doing.it this way...not eliminating either axle housing but pretty much taking the axles themselves out of the front housing, engaging the diverter full time and just running power to the rear axle.

[Deezl Smoke]

Still looking for opinions on doing.it this way...not eliminating either axle housing but pretty much taking the axles themselves out of the front housing, engaging the diverter full time and just running power to the rear axle.

 

One issue with finding more opinions is the lack of people that have done it. I've been running my Sterling off road, pulling all kinds of implements, with only the power divider gear head for some time. It is an Eaton 2 speed no less, in low range. At 9.77:1, in low with the planetary gears spinning, it is about the weakest gear head you can get. But it has not given me any issues.....................yet.

 

Top end lube is the most important thing of this whole concept. If you have a lube pump in the year model gear heads that you have, and it is driven from the pinion shaft, you should be able to even remove the ring gear/diff carrier. IMO.

Here's a pdf. Go to page 8 and see the picture that explains the lube pump and how it works.

 

But again, if you dont want to try something sorta out there like this, then it's best to stick with the tried and true. I personally would not have an issue trying this concept, but then I tend to take chances like that and sometimes not for the better.

[Scrap]

Sorry, I always get into these things and then don't have the time to keep up. The lube pump is important. It is why you always get yelled at for spinning the rear-rear only. Yea it is rookie driver stuff, but still it only takes a minute or two to squeak a power divider bearing in a non pump diff. And unfortunately regular 404's don't have a pump. But if you have it locked in and the shafts pulled (but kept the carrier section) it should still be turning the drop gears and pinion, and should still be lubing shouldn't it?

 

But I still don't think it'll work. It is the strong side of the interaxle diff as it isn't relying on the shaft splines like using only the forward, but it is still a relatively tiny little shaft and diff and with the axles pulled you aren't shedding any torque off on the fwd helical gears pre-diff. You are sending every last bit of it through that shaft and I don't think it'll take it. If you have a 350/1250 engine or maybe a mechanical engine where you can feel what is going on it might work, but with a big block E model I think you'd have to be real, real careful. You only get to scratch so many gears before she gives it up. And that is kind of the other trouble -where she pops is where you sit! Also if you do try it be sure to use the bolt kit to lock it and don't rely on air. "Seasonal Disconnect" I think Eaton calls it.

 

Junkyard suspension wise you have any of the Neway AD or newer ADZ's that can be done as a single. I think you can do a Primaax as a single now as well. Any of the Airglide 400 or 690's in 60" axle spacing or higher will be independent units. Most likely they will be 10" ride height, which would need some measuring to be sure it'll work. Those will also most likely only be found far up in the Canadian bush too. Also of note is that all these trailing arm suspensions require a heavy bore axle housing that your AG200/400 does not have. So you can't use your housing into a new-to-you trailing arm suspension. It'll crack it.

 

The AG400L is the KW version of the Low AirLeaf, and the AG210L is the KW single axle version of that. That could be a viable option. But it does have inboard shocks and it has a real long spring and frame bracket that gets in the way of everything that wants to be in front of the axle too. It also has a real low ride height that would need some calculation.

 

[Phil D]

Kenworth is selling Peterbilt suspensions now, Scrap? Say it isn't so!

 

How long before the KW in the Kenworth logo starts appearing in an elongated red oval, rather than in a red circle?

[Deezl Smoke]

Sorry, I always get into these things and then don't have the time to keep up. The lube pump is important. It is why you always get yelled at for spinning the rear-rear only. Yea it is rookie driver stuff, but still it only takes a minute or two to squeak a power divider bearing in a non pump diff. And unfortunately regular 404's don't have a pump. But if you have it locked in and the shafts pulled (but kept the carrier section) it should still be turning the drop gears and pinion, and should still be lubing shouldn't it?

 

But I still don't think it'll work. It is the strong side of the interaxle diff as it isn't relying on the shaft splines like using only the forward, but it is still a relatively tiny little shaft and diff and with the axles pulled you aren't shedding any torque off on the fwd helical gears pre-diff. You are sending every last bit of it through that shaft and I don't think it'll take it. If you have a 350/1250 engine or maybe a mechanical engine where you can feel what is going on it might work, but with a big block E model I think you'd have to be real, real careful. You only get to scratch so many gears before she gives it up. And that is kind of the other trouble -where she pops is where you sit! Also if you do try it be sure to use the bolt kit to lock it and don't rely on air. "Seasonal Disconnect" I think Eaton calls it.

 

Junkyard suspension wise you have any of the Neway AD or newer ADZ's that can be done as a single. I think you can do a Primaax as a single now as well. Any of the Airglide 400 or 690's in 60" axle spacing or higher will be independent units. Most likely they will be 10" ride height, which would need some measuring to be sure it'll work. Those will also most likely only be found far up in the Canadian bush too. Also of note is that all these trailing arm suspensions require a heavy bore axle housing that your AG200/400 does not have. So you can't use your housing into a new-to-you trailing arm suspension. It'll crack it.

 

The AG400L is the KW version of the Low AirLeaf, and the AG210L is the KW single axle version of that. That could be a viable option. But it does have inboard shocks and it has a real long spring and frame bracket that gets in the way of everything that wants to be in front of the axle too. It also has a real low ride height that would need some calculation.

 

 

IMO, when going to the efforts and expense of swapping suspensions, one may as well keep the tandem setup as a setup with axles, and just buy the axle that was in the new/used suspension. Or,........look at the possibility of a frame cut off. IMO.

[Neo/Russ]

Too bad you're so far away. I'd sell you the whole rear package - singled 404, new AG400 suspension, new 3.25 locker rear, new brake drums, new brake blocks, new air chambers, new hubs, new axle on locker side, new air bags and more. But honestly even then it wouldn't be a drop in. There are new frame holes to drill, driveshaft to shorten, and some clearance spots to work out that would take some hands on. And you ask what would it cost, well in that listing there is over $4,800 invested just in parts, plus a long drive from Oregon to TN and back. But if any of you need some new T2 parts at a discounted price depending on what and how many parts, drop me a line at barnstormer36 at g mail dot com.

[hongisto]

Russ:

 

I would love to do that...is the $4800 your price on all these components, or is that what they would cost full retail? I might have a way to get parts from TN to Oregon.

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

[Speed Gray]

I singled up my 2003 Pete 379 about five years ago by dropping the front drivers and extending the drive shaft. The new drive shaft was going to exceed the maximum allowable length, so an additional bearing hanger was installed and two shorted length shafts were used. Just make sure the driveline angles are within allowable ranges and you will have no problems except your wallet will be thinner. I also extended the frame off the back 6 feet at this time also.

 

I have about 50,000 miles on this setup and have had zero problems. Fuel mileage went from 7.5 to

12-13, which was an added bonus.

 

Can't help you with a shop to do out your way, but my suggestion is not take it to a first line dealer as they will be expensive. Find a smaller speciality shop that does class 8 frame and axle work. Ask around by visiting some shops and eventually you'll find one.

 

Good luck with your project.

 

 

Speed Gray

Grand Rapids, MI

[hongisto]

I singled up my 2003 Pete 379 about five years ago by dropping the front drivers and extending the drive shaft. The new drive shaft was going to exceed the maximum allowable length, so an additional bearing hanger was installed and two shorted length shafts were used. Just make sure the driveline angles are within allowable ranges and you will have no problems except your wallet will be thinner. I also extended the frame off the back 6 feet at this time also.

 

I have about 50,000 miles on this setup and have had zero problems. Fuel mileage went from 7.5 to

12-13, which was an added bonus.

 

Can't help you with a shop to do out your way, but my suggestion is not take it to a first line dealer as they will be expensive. Find a smaller speciality shop that does class 8 frame and axle work. Ask around by visiting some shops and eventually you'll find one.

 

Good luck with your project.

 

 

Speed Gray

Grand Rapids, MI

Speed...thanks for the advice. That certainly seems like the easiest way to solve my issue. Glad to hear it has worked for you.