Question of domicile?

[wa_desert_rat]

 

OK. But it seems to me there must be some sort of time span involved in the garaging concept? For example, I have neighbors that took off for Florida around the beginning of October and will likely not return home until the first part of April. That will have them out of the state for around 6 months, yet, I have not heard that creates an issue for them. I guess what I am trying to get my head around is that "domicile", I think, would also add an element of intent as far as garaging. Is that an incorrect assumption?

It's the distinction between "domicile" and "residency" that is confusing. We all understand what it means to be a resident in a state. You get your drivers license there, you have an address, you get utility bills, your kids go to school there and you probably vote there.

 

The two terms have the same meaning for the vast majority of people in the US. But not, necessarily, for RVers.

 

And that's where the confusion comes in. The domicile is to keep the bureaucrats happy. It's where they THINK you live. It keeps them happy and content. They don't care that you live in a park model in Benson, AZ; their paperwork says your domicile is South Dakota and that's fine. There's a spot to put that in and it works out so the average bureaucrat is happy.

 

A domicile for an RVer is a fictional residence. It fulfills all the requirements for a legal residence; except for the actual living there part.

 

WDR

[EagleEye]

Not that it has anything to do with domicile but I had our car registered in SD which is where our truck and 5th wheel is registered. I had the car insured with GICO. After about 3 months I started getting letters and phone calls asking where the car was garaged. I explained that we were fulltime RVer and that while SD was our legal domicle that the car was with us where ever we happened to be. That recognized that the SD address was just a mail forwarding service and insisted to know where the car was garaged. I happened to be in Illinois at the time so I told them the RV park where I was in Illinois and that made them happy. It did raise my rate a little but I sold the car shortly after that so it didn't cost much. When I get another car I will insure it with the same company that I have truck and RV with.

[skp51443]

When asked where our truck was garaged we always answered with the address of the SD campground we were using for our domicile, not our mail forwarding address. For the car in AZ we gave them the development and lot number where the garage for it was.

[Kirk W]

Black's Law Dictionary definition:

 

What is DOMICILE?

That place in which a man has voluntarily fixed the habitation of himself and family, not for a mere special or temporary purpose, but with the present intention of making a permanent home, until some unexpected event shall occur to induce him to adopt some other permanent home. In re Garneau, 127 Fed. G77, 02 C. C. A. 403.In its ordinary acceptation, a person’s domicile is the place where he lives or has hishome. In a strict and legal sense, that is properly the domicile of a person where he has his true, fixed, permanent home and principal establishment, and to which, whenever he is absent, he has the intention of returning. Anderson v. Anderson, 42 Vt. 350, 1Am. Rep. 334.Domicile is but the established, fixed, permanent, or ordinary dwelling-place or place of residence of a person, as distinguished from his temporary and transient, though actual, place of residence. It is his legal residence, as distinguished from his temporary place of abode; or his home, as distinguished from a place to which business or pleasure may temporarily call him. Salem v. Lyme, 29 Conn. 74.Domicile is the place where a person has fixed his habitation and has a permanent residence, without any present intention of removing therefrom. Crawford v. Wilson, 4 Barb. (N. Y.) 504, 520. _One’s domicile is the place where one’s family permanently resides. Daniel v. Sullivan, 40 Ga. 277.In international law, “domicile” means a residence at a particular place,accompanied with positive or presumptive proof of intending to continue there for anunlimited time. State v. Collector of Bordentown, 32 N. J. Law, 192.”Domicile” and “residence” are not synonymous. The domicile is the home, the fixed place of habitation; while residence is a transient place of dwelling. Bartlett v. New York. 5 Sandf. (X. Y.) 44.The domicile is the habitation fixed in any place villi an intention of always staying there, while simple residence is much more temporary in its character. New Y’ork v. Genet, 4 Ilun (N. Y.) 4S9.

Law Dictionary: What is DOMICILE? definition of DOMICILE (Black's Law Dictionary)

Clear as mud!!!

[Phil and Micky]

The easy thing to do... and the safest... and the smartest... would be to take a weekend and fly to SD to change your domicile to SD before you buy an RV. Then you can register it in SD put a SD address on that TX tax exemption certificate and if you get stopped in WA you will have a SD drivers license (and address) driving a SD-registered RV and WA probably won't care.

 

If you buy an RV in TX and drive it to WA while you pack or move or whatever while you still have a WA drivers license (and a valid physical address inside WA you may not rent right away) you are risking a lot of hassles. Not just money but tax evasion is a felony in WA and they take it seriously (especially having a no-sales-tax state just to the south - Oregon). Your ideas about "intent" may get you out of trouble... or not. I suspect that the WA tax folks may see your lack of SD identification and legal residency as more of an "intent" to evade paying WA sales tax. At the very least you'll have some 'splainin' to do.

 

And you may have some other issues...

 

You have a long series of posts in this forum - using what I would imagine to be your real first names along with your real occupation and place of work - which indicate that you intend to buy vehicle out-of-state and you intend to drive that vehicle inside WA state for some unstated period of time without paying WA "use" tax and without actually becoming a resident of any other state. You have also clearly indicated that a major reason for buying out of state is because you do not want to pay WA use tax on that vehicle. And you have also questioned whether or not anyone will catch you. I'll leave it to you to imagine what sort of "intent" is demonstrated...

 

And you forget that there are people who resent other people doing this sort of thing and you risk one of them reading your posts and then telling the WA Department of Revenue that they maybe should check to see if you really moved to SD or are you still living at your address in the Seattle area (that's a no-brainer to find if you are a contractor to Boeing) with an expensive motor home in your driveway with no WA plates.

 

I'd love to see the eyebrows on that lawyer you're going to talk to when you tell him all of this...

 

WDR

I'm not sure that the questions I've asked on this forum are any different than the questions anyone would ask before they change their state of domicile which is exactly what I'm going to do. Trying to determine the best way to do this and just what the correct steps are in getting it done is the issue... it's a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

I can easily get on an airplane and fly to S.D. to get the driver's license but is it necessary before I fly to TX to buy the coach? I think not. I don't think there will be an issue of buying the coach in a couple of months and then driving to S.D. this summer. In other words, do I have to get a S.D. driver's license to establish domicile in S.D.; apparently not. There are hundreds if not thousands who have already done this. Did they obtain a S.D. first? I don't know, that's what I'm trying to find out.

 

As for owning a home in WA, I don't see an issue there either as I already have a tenant lined up to live in my home. I could just as easily own homes and properties in multiple states and domicile in S.D., eh? I could even live in some of these houses from time to time without comprimising my domicile status in another state.

 

Other than those issues, what am I missing?

Phil

 

PS I think is't pretty obvious by my posts to this forum that I fully intend to move out of WA.

[Phil and Micky]

Not that it has anything to do with domicile but I had our car registered in SD which is where our truck and 5th wheel is registered. I had the car insured with GICO. After about 3 months I started getting letters and phone calls asking where the car was garaged. I explained that we were fulltime RVer and that while SD was our legal domicle that the car was with us where ever we happened to be. That recognized that the SD address was just a mail forwarding service and insisted to know where the car was garaged. I happened to be in Illinois at the time so I told them the RV park where I was in Illinois and that made them happy. It did raise my rate a little but I sold the car shortly after that so it didn't cost much. When I get another car I will insure it with the same company that I have truck and RV with.

Eagle Eye,

That's good stuff, thanks for sharing it.

Phil

[Phil and Micky]

When asked where our truck was garaged we always answered with the address of the SD campground we were using for our domicile, not our mail forwarding address. For the car in AZ we gave them the development and lot number where the garage for it was.

Thanks Stan!

[Phil and Micky]

Black's Law Dictionary definition:

Clear as mud!!!

Good grief, what a confusing mess.

Kirk, It seems like I remember reading the article you wrote on this topic several months ago... at least I think it was you. I thought you did a good job with a difficult topic.

 

It seems like there have been articles on this in the past few Escapees issues as well. The only problem is that the recent articles have been so vague as to create more questions that they've answered IMHO.

 

Phil

[Barbaraok]

 

 

Other than those issues, what am I missing?

Phil

 

PS I think is't pretty obvious by my posts to this forum that I fully intend to move out of WA.

 

Are you flying to Texas, buying the rig and driving it back to Washington, or driving to SD and getting everything set up? Because if you have a nosey neighbor who you have offended and you arrive 'home' with a new RV with SD plates, then they might call and report that they think "something is suspicious". What are the chances, not much, but why take the chance?

What I don't understand is why are you seem unwilling to accept the answers given to you by people who have been out here, fulltiming, for years and years? Some of those who have offered you great information have seen people run afoul of the different state agencies and I believe their only goal is to help others.

[bigjim]

Maybe its just me but I don't see any hostility, maybe at most a slight reluctance if anything but at some point it becomes their decision. One thing that did enter my thought though was are they going to have a "dealer" tag or temp. tag with sufficient time drive it to SD. Maybe as long as there is not delay in route for whatever could go wrong. (see Mr. Murphys Law) I bought a number of vehicles at auction in NM and was able to buy a temp. tag right at the auction. I had a pacemaker implanted the next day and had stay more than a month longer. The temp. tag was good for 10 days and they wouldn't allow a second one. That created a bit of trouble. I do business with the Livingston tax office which helped expedite getting permenant tags slightly because they understand dealing with RV'rs. Still driving that truck today. Well not today but yesterday for sure.

[Barbaraok]

I understand, I guess it would be why one is so adverse to accepting the answers given without repeatedly questioning the people giving the advice in order to get the answer one wants. I'll edit my post above.

 

Barb

[wa_desert_rat]

When we bought a truck in Illinois years ago, we NEVER took it to South Dakota. At the time, we didn't have our South Dakota driver's licenses yet, but we had signed up with Americas Mailbox. They handled the whole registration for us by mail, sent us the plates, got us insurance based on the South Dakota "garaging" address, and we only paid the 3% sales tax right to South Dakota. Couldn't have been easier and was totally legal!

 

Frances

How long did you drive the RV with SD plates but no SD drivers license?

 

WDR

[Kirk W]

Good grief, what a confusing mess.

Kirk, It seems like I remember reading the article you wrote on this topic several months ago... at least I think it was you. I thought you did a good job with a difficult topic.

It is very likely that you did so. I wrote an article on the subject for Escapee's Magazine back in 2013 and it is presently posted on my website. It is still there if you wish to take another look.

[Jack Mayer]

Since it came up in this thread .....the issue of "garaging" can be a sticky point for some insurance companies when you have a mail forwarding address. It is for Geico, who dropped us because our car was not "garaged" at our address of record - Escapees Livingston. Moreover, they said they would not accept the Escapees address as a"garaging" address because it was a commercial address. This was around the same time that they started offering fulltimers insurance - which they still do.

 

Discussions with them at the Tampa RV show indicated that we "should" be able to insure our car through them. But they want our RV as well (typical). But they "don't want" our truck. What a mess. They actually have no idea what they are doing IMO.

 

While you can seemingly get away with some anomalies for awhile, it may catch up with you later. So be prepared with an alternative solution. We had only 3 days to find another company when dropped....mostly due to the fact that we only get our mail every 2 weeks or so. Oh, and BTW, if you DO get dropped and not know it and have no coverage, you may find your drivers license AUTOMATICALLY suspended by your home state's computer system. Good luck getting THAT fixed expeditiously.

[bigjim]

"if you DO get dropped and not know it and have no coverage, you may find your drivers license AUTOMATICALLY suspended by your home state's computer system. Good luck getting THAT fixed expeditiously."

 

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. It should be a law that you be notified that you have been dropped by some method that proves you received the notice but that will never happen.

[Phil and Micky]

 

Are you flying to Texas, buying the rig and driving it back to Washington, or driving to SD and getting everything set up? Because if you have a nosey neighbor who you have offended and you arrive 'home' with a new RV with SD plates, then they might call and report that they think "something is suspicious". What are the chances, not much, but why take the chance?

What I don't understand is why are you seem unwilling to accept the answers given to you by people who have been out here, fulltiming, for years and years? Some of those who have offered you great information have seen people run afoul of the different state agencies and I believe their only goal is to help others.

 

Barbaraok,

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to share your thoughts with me even if you did hurt my feelings a bit.

 

 

Oh my gosh, please believe me when I say that I never wanted to appear unappreciative or hostile to anyone here or the information they’ve shared with me. I do admit that I am frustrated with the whole domicile issue but I’ve tried to thank everyone for sharing their input with me. This is all brand new to me and I’m used to living in a black and white world where there are absolute answers; at least more so than there appear to be with this whole domicile thing.

 

 

At this time the plan is to drive to Texas to buy the RV and then bring it back to WA. It will have 60 day temporary tags on it so I will have time to get the plates back from S.D. I have a very good relationship with all of my neighbors so I’m not concerned with that, and don’t want to be anyway. I am trying to do this all above board so that there won’t be any issues.

 

 

That being said, the only snag I have at this time is trying to determine if a S.D. driver’s license is a requirement at this time or if I can take care of it this summer. Hopefully the attorney will have the answer to that question when he calls me this afternoon.

 

 

Also, I am still very interested in hearing from folks who’ve had their domicile questioned. In other words, is this whole issue more fiction than fact? I would think that everyone who has adopted the RV lifestyle would be interested in this as well. Perhaps we can even talk Kirk into writing another article for Escapees on this topic. I think it would make great reading.

 

 

Again, thank you to everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts and opinions with me. I will try to share the information I receive from the attorney but my guess is that it will just be more of the same vagueness on this topic; I hope not but I fear it will be.

 

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

[Phil and Micky]

When we bought a truck in Illinois years ago, we NEVER took it to South Dakota. At the time, we didn't have our South Dakota driver's licenses yet, but we had signed up with Americas Mailbox. They handled the whole registration for us by mail, sent us the plates, got us insurance based on the South Dakota "garaging" address, and we only paid the 3% sales tax right to South Dakota. Couldn't have been easier and was totally legal!

 

Frances

fulltimerz51,

Thank you so much for sharing that. This pretty much fits in with what the folks in S.D. are telling me. When did you obtain your S.D. driver's license if you did?

Phil

[Phil and Micky]

 

We had friends do something similar, nearly 20 years ago now, their intent was a bit different as they fully intended to re-licence the motorhome in Washington and pay the state taxes due on it. However they picked the motorhome up in Oregon and went camping for a few days, had a medical problem and ended up in a hospital parking lot for over a month. They decided that the least hassle route to staying legal was to just get Oregon tags while they were stuck and fix everything when they got home to Washington. Sadly they got stopped by the WA tax enforcement people who refused to believe them. Expensive lawyer, court dates and nasty threats from the tax folks. The lawyer was finally able to come to an acceptable compromise with the tax folks, our friends signed over their month old motorhome and the tax folks dropped the charges. Since they had traded in their old motorhome and lost the new one they dropped out of RVing and we lost track of them.

 

The tax folks have a huge hammer to pound you with, do not try them.

Why did they "sign over the motorhome" and to whom did they sign it over instead of just paying the taxes on it which is what they intended to do? When I came to WA from CA back in the 70's there were a lot of folks here with CA plates and law enforcement was aggressive in stopping them. My sister had lived here for awhile when she was stopped and questioned about why she was in WA with CA plates… the bottom line was that she was written a citation and give two weeks to get her WA plates. When she did so the citation was voided out.

 

[Phil and Micky]

Stan,

 

I can remember people who had gone to Oregon to get boats/trailers and brought them back to Washington - - IIRC the state started a program which rewarded people who documented cases (i.e. the noisy neighbor who looked over the fence) of not registering and paying sales tax on large ticket items with a % of the tax amount that was recovered.

 

Barb

I remember hearing about this also a number of years back. I was pretty common down but the WA/OR border.

[Phil and Micky]

 

OK. But it seems to me there must be some sort of time span involved in the garaging concept? For example, I have neighbors that took off for Florida around the beginning of October and will likely not return home until the first part of April. That will have them out of the state for around 6 months, yet, I have not heard that creates an issue for them. I guess what I am trying to get my head around is that "domicile", I think, would also add an element of intent as far as garaging. Is that an incorrect assumption?

Chalkie brings up a good point. Certainly there are those of you who spend a period of time in a particular state. Perhaps that amount of time exceeds what is legal for having out of state plates. Do y’all register your vehicle in the state where you have exceed the time limit?

[wa_desert_rat]

 

At this time the plan is to drive to Texas to buy the RV and then bring it back to WA. It will have 60 day temporary tags on it so I will have time to get the plates back from S.D. I have a very good relationship with all of my neighbors so I’m not concerned with that, and don’t want to be anyway. I am trying to do this all above board so that there won’t be any issues.

 

So far at least four of us have said that if you buy an RV in Texas, register it in South Dakota and then drive it into Washington while you still have a residence (and domicile) in Washington without paying tax to Washington you will breaking Washington State law. And it's clear from your comments that this is your plan. Asking questions related to who may have gotten away with this simply underscores the fact that you know it's illegal and just want to know what the chances are that you'll get caught.

 

I suspect that at this point your chances of getting caught are 100%.

 

How vague is that?

 

WDR

[Phil and Micky]

Since it came up in this thread .....the issue of "garaging" can be a sticky point for some insurance companies when you have a mail forwarding address. It is for Geico, who dropped us because our car was not "garaged" at our address of record - Escapees Livingston. Moreover, they said they would not accept the Escapees address as a"garaging" address because it was a commercial address. This was around the same time that they started offering fulltimers insurance - which they still do.

 

Discussions with them at the Tampa RV show indicated that we "should" be able to insure our car through them. But they want our RV as well (typical). But they "don't want" our truck. What a mess. They actually have no idea what they are doing IMO.

 

While you can seemingly get away with some anomalies for awhile, it may catch up with you later. So be prepared with an alternative solution. We had only 3 days to find another company when dropped....mostly due to the fact that we only get our mail every 2 weeks or so. Oh, and BTW, if you DO get dropped and not know it and have no coverage, you may find your drivers license AUTOMATICALLY suspended by your home state's computer system. Good luck getting THAT fixed expeditiously.

Jack, thanks for sharing this. I called an insurance agent in S.D. who deals with this all of time. I explained the situation and the fact that I have a WA driver's license. He said that it makes no difference to them as long as I have a valid license.

Phil

[Phil and Micky]

So far at least four of us have said that if you buy an RV in Texas, register it in South Dakota and then drive it into Washington while you still have a residence (and domicile) in Washington you will breaking Washington State law. And it's clear from your comments that this is your plan. Asking questions related to who may have gotten away with this simply underscores the fact that you know it's illegal and just want to know what the chances are that you'll get caught.

 

I suspect that at this point your chances of getting caught are 100%.

 

How vague is that?

 

WDR

Thank you for your input. My domicile will be changed to S.D. before we buy the RV. And, my house here in WA will be rented out. I do plan to come back here to take care of some other business and things of that nature. But, I will still have a WA driver's license. I guess we will find out in time if it becomes an issue or not.

 

Phil

[Jack Mayer]

Phil, I doubt it will be an issue unless you are stopped for some reason in the RV. Then you will have some explaining to do......and there is no way to predict the outcome of such an encounter.

[Chad Heiser]

Phil, I doubt it will be an issue unless you are stopped for some reason in the RV. Then you will have some explaining to do......and there is no way to predict the outcome of such an encounter.

I agree with Jack, it is not an issue unless you are stopped or someone reports you.

 

However, speaking from a LEO perspective, if I were the one who stopped you; you would definitely be getting a citation and be sent to the DMV to register your RV in WA to correct that citation (and pay whatever taxes and fees would be due). You have done nothing to break your residency from WA by simply registering the RV in SD. Just because you eventually intend to break your residency (or domicile) from WA does not prevent you from having to pay WA sales tax in the scenario you describe. You are still licensed to drive in WA, you are still registered to vote in WA (an assumption on my part) and you are still living in WA (even though you are not living in your current home that has been, or will be by the time of the RV purchase, rented out). As soon as you bring that RV into WA, the law will require you to register it there under this scenario within a certain number of codified days (I do not have the WA statute to quote for this).

 

If you completely cut your ties to WA by getting licensed to drive, registered to vote, change health insurance, change bank accounts, etc. to another state and then bring the RV into WA you will not have to register and pay the taxes and fees to WA. Outside of this, legally you will have to give WA their money.

 

Again, this is assuming that you get stopped in the RV or someone reports you to bring you to the attention of WA officials. It is your choice to take this risk, but it is a risk and potentially a very expensive and possibly criminal risk that I personally would not take.