CA_Tallguy

VERY COOL! I wondered if anyone had done something like this! So the hitch extends and retracts? How big of a deal is it as you move the hitch away from the centerline on the back axles? I guess the further away it is, the more of a lever action there is on the pivot? I'm new to 5th wheels and the needed geometry for hitch placement on the tow vehicle. Has anyone used one of those in-motion sliding hitches as well? The ones made for short bed trucks, I think, where they move on turns to give extra clearance? Not sure how much room they give you but for people running long, maybe every inch counts. Or at least if you are close, maybe it could put some people within legal length -- as long as truck and trailer are straight when the officer comes with the tape. And also for an extending/retracting hitch -- maybe you could snug up the trailer by a foot or two by the time you pull over to get measured.

Thanks for sharing pics and info on how you did it, @Moresmoke and @Scrap And @Scrap that 280 system is one I hadn't heard about before.... this looks very exciting. This is Metri Pack? Here's an overview I found for anyone else who may be interested:

STILL TOO MUCH DIY? HOW ABOUT NEARLY ZERO WIRING!!? This Tekonsha 119251 ZCI Zero Contact Interface Universal ModuLite Kit ($130) uses current sensors on any wiring you can find with the signals you are interested in. You simply provide +12v to the unit and then clip the current sensors on the signal and brake wires, etc. https://amzn.to/3xYjgTE Then take the 4way output and plug it into 7way, run your brake controller and you've done enough to get on the road.... Hopkins 47185 Multi-Tow 4 Flat to 7 Blade and 4 Flat Adapter ($20): https://amzn.to/3uyedHJ So you have a complete wiring solution for $150 instead of $280. And it's far more simple to install than the Jackalopee. I think only 3 wires are essential -- +12v, ground and the output for your brake controller. NOTE: THESE ARE NOT TAPS -- THEY DO NOT CUT INTO THE WIRES! You would likely need to put the current sensors somewhere on wiring to the existing tail lights on the truck as they need to sense current to operate. (It may not work if you put them on the normal trailer wiring connector as there isn't any current on the wire without your trailer connected to it.).

Well, I think it's more like there are green apples and red apples and washington and granny smith and more. Lots of options. But the "core" of all of the relay based options is less than $20 in relays, even for the exact same relays used in the Jackalopee. Is the rest worth $180 (with shipping) or $280 with some extra wiring? To me that is a heavy premium. You can get this waterproof version of the relays used in the Jackalopee for $4 each https://www.qualitymobilevideo.com/bu5084.html Donald Trump may crap on a golden toilet but I'm fine with porcelain LOL. They do the same thing and there is nothing deficient in my porcelain toilet over his. I think some people said the Hoppy didn't last very long but there are dozens of other ready made alternatives such as below. To make things really easy, you could get one of these 7 way trailer connecter sockets that can take a 4 way input, which some of the units below provide as output -- ( https://amzn.to/3uyedHJ ) and then you just do a direct run TO THE SOCKET of your brake controller, +12v aux/charging circuit if needed, reverse lights if needed. No real need to put those through the Jackalopee anyway. It can't get much more plug and play than this.... even less wiring than with the Jackalopee! Hopkins 46255 ($45) https://amzn.to/3o9HRAE (5 amp) Hopkins 46265 ($55) https://amzn.to/3tuW105 (8 amp) Hopkins 46155 ($20) https://amzn.to/3bf15iQ ("Each unit can power 2.1 amps per stop/turn signal") Curt 56187 ($20) https://amzn.to/3ezynLU Tekonsha 1119178 ($30) https://amzn.to/3vUVO7Y - 2.1 amp stop light/turn signal circuit capacity; 7.5 amp taillight circuit capacity Reese 8507900 ($36) https://amzn.to/3o12Sx8 - 2.1 amps for Turn/Stop circuits and 7.5 amps for Tail light circuit The main consideration with these is how much current your trailer will draw, apparently. If your trailer has LED tail and stop/turn lights, you are probably fine with any of them. Perhaps the people using Hopkins in the past had incandescent lights and the low power version?

Looking over my circuit design, there may not be too many crimps to do.... hell this has to be easier than putting together a piece of Ikea furniture LOL! INCOMING CONNECTIONS GROUNDS - Relay terminals #85 for all four relays get tied together with the incoming and outgoing ground RIGHT TURN - Tie the incoming right turn wire to terminal #86 from one relay and #30 on another relay LEFT TURN - Do the same for terminals #86 and #30 for the other two relays and the incoming left turn wire BRAKES - Tie the last two #30 terminals to the incoming brake wire RELAY TO RELAY (the above gives us a "right" and "left" relay pairs) For the "left" relay pair, connect remaining terminal #86 on one relay to #87 on other relay Do the same for the right pair OUTGOING CONNECTIONS LEFT TURN/BRAKES - Tie the two #87a terminals on the pair of "left" relays to the outgoing left turn/brake wire RIGHT TURN/BRAKES - Do the same for #87a on the two "right" relays with the outgoing right turn/brake wire I think the remaining wiring gets passed through from incoming to outgoing wires (running lights, reverse) and the brake controller is connected to the brake control pin on the 7 way blade connector. Disclaimer: I have not tested this except using a simulator online so if anyone tries this it may be good to rough out and loosely connect the wires at first before doing final crimps and heat shrink. Refer to my circuit diagram for troubleshooting or revert to one of the methods in the FAQ if things needed. If I get into this maybe I'll try the circuit on a breadboard to verify. With quality, waterproof relays of the same brand as used on the Jackalopee, it should last the life of the truck. https://www.qualitymobilevideo.com/bu5084.html

My soldering is also not great although recently I have been trying to improve. Some also say that solder for a mobile application isn't great while other people swear by it. Like you, I mostly opt for crimping. That's why I would probably end up using relays with pigtail sockets like I previously posted: https://amzn.to/3eRD6Y9 (maybe a waterproof version with waterproof relays) Then I would use marine grade crimp connectors AND marine heat shrink tubing over those. (I'm always afraid that I might puncture the heat shrink on the connectors while crimping.)

@NeverEasy thanks for the reply. It's great to hear from someone who appreciates that diy OR jackalopee are both fine solutions. The experience you had a the 2019 ECR rally is exactly the type of scenario when a DIY option is perfect because sometimes you want to implement a solution right on the spot. I agree with you about being careful with quality of many of different components you can source. I do tend to gravitate toward reputable brands and sellers. On Amazon, if there are a large number of positive reviews -- AND (very important) if the product is sold by one seller only (so you can know the reviews are applying to not only the product but also the seller) -- I may take a chance on the product as long as there are not a lot of reports of faulty items in the reviews themselves. I also priced out the same brand that I could see were used in the Jackalopee and am pleased to see that they were modestly priced too.... just $3.59 at the first place I looked so I didn't bother to go any further. Now I just looked again and see the model I linked is also WATERPROOF so that's a nice bonus and makes a separate waterproof enclosure less important if used for a DIY installation. https://www.qualitymobilevideo.com/bu5084.html

I never said it was a better option. I've said it is an alternative -- one that the HDT community already lists in the FAQ -- that some people will prefer. It seems a lot of people are very passionate about the Jackalopee and I've said again and again.... that's great. I've said it is a lovely product. This will be the third time I've said -- some people may have more time than money and this can work for those people. It's really all anyone needs and will likely be completely sufficient for as long as they own the truck. Most every post has been to tear apart the unimaginable notion that someone might wish to simply wire together a few relays costing $13 (perhaps even the very same relays in your Jackalopee) and spend the remaining couple hundred bucks on something else. Here's the link to the FAQ again: http://www.hhrvresource.com/node/203.html If this is a terrible idea, perhaps someone should update the FAQ to remove it.

Is anyone mounting their Jackalopee in a location where they need more than an IP65 rating? Seems unadvisable. An enclosure for these relays is a luxury more than a necessity. The relays could be mounted in a toolbox, drawnbox, or the cab, for example. Most people I would guess have many electrical components mounted in various places and few are probably in IP65 or greater cases. The enclosure I posted does have means for protecting the wiring in the back -- which would be required for the IP65 rating. There are numerous alternatives on Amazon if you are looking for something better. This one was the highest rated and is marketed to off road enthusiasts, so I'm guessing that over the road use is a lighter use case. 4.6 out of 5 stars from 1510 reviews which is about as good as it gets. I find the reviews and customer Q&A on Amazon will likely address or surface any issues you may be concerned about. https://amzn.to/3eWNttx

As I said in my opening -- if you have more money than time, then by all means spend away. Those of you who have purchased a truck already done by one of the outfitters will likely fall into this category. If you like the make of the Jackalopee, go ahead and support him. But not everyone is going to have this luxury. Other folks are going a DIY route, and this is a simple way to save a few bucks. Spend that money for things you can't do yourself, or to upgrade some other component that you otherwise would not that would make a bigger difference to your vehicle. "DIY where you can and spend where you must" may be a strategy for some. If all DIY'ers priced their labor at $75/hr I doubt there would be much DIY happening in the world. Some other folks like me will just balk at paying nearly $300 for something I can put together myself for pocket change. In minutes, not hours. (Just crimp together some wires on the $13 relay set with wired sockets I posted. 5 relays + 5 sockets with wiring for $13 https://amzn.to/3eRD6Y9 4.7 out of 5 stars from 3381 reviews) Maybe some people will opt to try an option from another source like Tekonsha that only costs $30. I would suggest they study the reviews carefully on any unit to try to determine if it is reliable and long lasting. I don't believe that ET hitch has the only solution. (ET's solution is lovely but some people may decide solid state is preferable to mechanical relays.) We all have our own ways of doing things and our own priorities -- that's why no two HDT's are exactly the same, right? So there can be more than one "correct" solution here. Multiple DIY solutions are already listed by the HDT community in your FAQ so I'm not proposing something new and radical here. There are many benefits in addition to cost savings, such as repairability with standard components available anywhere and immediate availability without waiting for an order to be delivered. Perhaps someone will come upon this information when they are doing their final prep after a build, not having realized this would be a problem to solve, and hoping to go on the road tomorrow and they need a solution right now. There are many ways to accomplish this functionality for under $20 and a couple of minutes crimping connectors (not 2 hours) instead of $180 (plus $100 for the wiring). You can put the relays inside a toolbox or other protected location with some improvised moisture and dust protection. Or for $30 just get this enclosure that is about as highly rated product as you will find on Amazon. They have free returns so there is no harm in ordering it and sending it back if you don't find it suitable.

I came across a mention of the Jackalopee in another thread and didn't want to hijack that any further about DIY solutions. The Jackalopee appears to have many fans and if you have more money than time, it's probably a great solution. Some of us are trying to DIY build a lot more of our own HDT (I'm still exploring HDT) so I wanted to post some info that may help others trying to save a few bucks to make their own solution. The other benefit of DIY is you can use standard components available EVERYWHERE and if you have any problems, any competent vehicle mechanic with electrical skills can help you. Other folks have pointed out that ET Hitch is amazing with their service and you can talk directly to the designer of the product for help. That's great, but I think it is even better to be able to replace any component from a DIY solution any day of the year in any city in north america (probably the world) and you can get hands-on help everywhere too. But honestly, if you use good relays you will likely never have a problem. The DIY plans in the FAQ are conveniently numbered to match standard relays so anyone should be able to follow along to build their own unit. Thanks to @Nigel for directing me to this http://www.hhrvresource.com/node/203.html I also designed my own 4 relay circuit that you can play with on CircuitLab here: https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/5r6nrm9kfcax/trailer-light-converter/ -- It works by passing through the turn signals when a brake signal is absent. If brakes are also pressed when a signal is engaged, the turn signal +12v is used to power one of the relay coils to cause a momentary interruption in the brake light on the indicated side. Said another way, the power from the turn signal is used to TURN OFF (flash) the brake light on the left or right side. This method will be opposite of what your truck is showing -- so when the truck has a blinker ON, the trailer would have the blinker OFF. If this inversion bothers you, just spend a little time adjusting the circuit or see if the circuit in the FAQ is more to your liking. The main function of Jackalopee appears to be provided by a set of 5 relays in a weatherproof box. You can get a highly rated weatherproof box at Amazon (4.6 out of 5 stars from 1510 reviews) WITH SIX RELAYS and a set of fuses (extra protection over the Jackalopee, I think) for $29.95..... https://amzn.to/3eWNttx In comparison, the Jackalopee price on the website right now is $180.90. To save even more, you could purchase the same brand relays as on the Jackalopee for about $3 each and fashion your own wiring. The DIY plans posted in the FAQ call for 3 or 4 relays depending on which method you choose. So we're talking $9 to $12. https://www.qualitymobilevideo.com/bu5084.html Or you can get this set of 5 relays + 5 sockets with wiring for $13 https://amzn.to/3eRD6Y9 (4.7 out of 5 stars from 3381 reviews) -- these are also numbered so you can follow along with the DIY design in the FAQ linked above. MOST of the wiring is from one relay to another, so since these sockets have wires already attached. you would be splicing or soldering a lot of these wires together. The additional wiring option for Jackalopee (about $100 today) is mostly some wire + a socket and adapter. You can get a wide variety of pigtails and mounts at Amazon to suit your needs, such as this 8ft for $30 or 12ft for $38: https://amzn.to/3eg1JP8 (you could use some of the wire in this pigtail for your cross-relay wiring). If you shop around on amazon there are many deals to be found and you can get higher or lower quality to suit your own taste and budget. If you like the LED's that the Jackalopee has, you can pick up a cheap LED tester for 7 way blade RV sockets at any RV supply store or probably at any Walmart. For example this one is $10: https://amzn.to/3toFUBq

I'm not seeing anyone complaining about failures of the Tekonsha unit in the reviews. They have given it 4.8 out of 5 stars at eTrailer. Some things I read said that you HDT folks were supposed to be more DIY inclined but I'm starting to wonder! For under $20 you could buy the exact same relays Jackalopee uses and it wouldn't be hard to wire them up. I'll sit down and draw out a schematic and post. There is nothing magic about this Jackalopee box. I think these are the same relays as used in the Jackalopee -- Beuler brand. Just $3.59 ea. https://www.qualitymobilevideo.com/bu5084.html If people are willing to spend $180 (or $280 with a few extra wires) on a handful of relays and a few LED's, wow, I should print up some circuit boards and have some made, then put them on Amazon. Am I missing something that all this does is combines the turn and brake signals? If you want test LED's, just get a trailer wiring tester for $10 https://amzn.to/3toFUBq The other commercial models like Tekonsha may be all electronics rather than relay based. Electronics should be a more reliable design since they don't have any moving parts, but in the end, it's probably doing to depend on the quality of the electronics and how much they are protected or resilient in the face of vibration/dirt/moisture. Same thing with relays except they have the additional consideration of moving parts and contacts to wear out or corrode. Someone developed what they think would be a good electronics based design here: https://www.electroschematics.com/trailer-stop-turn-signal-converter/. At the end of the page, they noted some problems with a commercial model they purchased at UHAUL due to low quality, inexpensive components.

I looked up the Jackalopee -- Seems awfully expensive for a bunch of relays. Doesn't Tekonsha 119130 for $30 do the same thing? You could then get a splice it into the middle of a 7 way round to 7 way blade pigtail and you are done for about $60. Seems like you could do it for even less $$ if you just wired up a 7 way blade socket from the Tekonsha adapter. And I'm guessing there are other adapters out there for even less than the Tekonsha. Etrailer has an article talking about ways to do this. They list 4 different adapters for combining the brake and turn signals.... https://www.etrailer.com/question-111684.html

This unit is REALLY nicely done and sounds like they worked with a coach builder AND volvo to customize it. The paint and body appearance make it feel a lot less imposing as it feels more like a traditional/typical/modern RV Seems pretty clear that they started with a day cab, right?

Came across a few Volvo toterhomes.... This one is an old listing so may no longer be available, but is maybe close to what I'd like. No factory sleeper and still has a fifth wheel. Also has a slideout for extra space. https://www.facebook.com/commerce/listing/561357350881031/?media_id=0&ref=share_attachment This next one is 1999 Volvo with factory sleeper + a box made into a motorhome behind it. Pretty well done. The only thing is once again the factory sleeper really isn't put to good use. There area just a couple bench seats in it. I wonder if they use it as a dinette? https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/484320195920371/ This is something I have been thinking about. For a DAY CAB or SHORT sleeper, I could probably live without a pass through unless it would give me a little more space to move the drivers seat back in the cab. Most of the pass throughs I've seen are just a opening with accordian type rubber baffle in between so they would offer no extra legroom. For a 660 or 780+ sleeper, a pass through might be essential as I'd want to try to incorporate the sleeper space into the rest of the living space.

I did just come across this video of a Volvo 860 conversion where they added a wet bath. Not much room left over for living and cooking/eating so this prob only makes sense for a working driver. It seems pretty clear that nothing less than a 10 foot custom sleeper -- or a real "toterhome" build -- is going to be the kind of self contained rig I've been thinking about. Or maybe I could add a 5 foot custom box behind an 860 with a kitchenette on one side and wet bath on the other? Without ever even having been inside a semi truck to have any idea what I'm talking about, that may be too ambitious of a dream to consider.

Thanks for posting. I have seen that one but I think I'd have gut and refurbish the whole thing, so might as well start from scratch. And the nose on that truck is massive, eating into that 65 foot magic number for length. I'm trying to be judicious with how every foot is used because it does matter for many reasons, even outside of legal -- from paying for storage space to what campsites I could fit into. Even if I could realistically visit friends and families in HOA communities or fancy neighborhoods while bobtailing (prob not easy in any HDT, but a modern Volvo with clean aerodynamic lines is prob easier than a classic big rig shape). There is nothing subtle about that Kenworth LOL 🙂 -- that's a trucker's truck for sure with those tall stacks and long hood!

There is this Volvo 780 with a box conversion behind the sleeper.... OPPOSING SLIDES! https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2001-Volvo-780--CUSTOM-HAULER-5016269459 But as you can see in the listing, the factory sleeper really isn't well utilized space. I'd rather just slide the main living quarters box forward and have a 5th wheel hitch behind the box... OR a longer box with a garage. (I think this box is setup as a Harley hauler so the bed in the back goes up and down.)

Yes, that's the realization I'm coming to as well. This makes a lot of sense when in motion (trucking or RV'ing), but not for camping. So frustrating to be so close to what I need! If only the larger sleepers with the wetbath were more common (and less expensive), it would be perfect. Toyhaulers with a 16+ ft garage and 5000lb+ cargo capacity in the garage are pretty much unicorns too, unfortunately. Here are some options in my notes: grand design 398M (18ft garage) - made from ~2018+ (used listed for $72k) weekend warrior 4620M (20ft garage, 7k axles!!) - ~2017+? 24k GVWR, 15k dry weight ATC Game Changer - almost ideal, $150k Forest River Work and Play 38FCR - may fit existing toad... kitchen is L shaped in the garage. Entry door is in front of garage too. 1 small popout in the bedroom. 38FKS - 17-8 garage, 1 slide for couch, bed over the nose 40WCH -- 17ft garage with 2 slides! 40FKS - 19-9 garage but the floor plan is the more typical "car hauler" and crowded 40BTS -- only 12 or 13 ft cargo, 3 slides 40WTS -- only 12 ft cargo 40RLS - 16ft cargo but glass doors prob enough to allow nose of GL through? 44 - huge garages.... RLS floorplan looks best KZ venom v4020dq - interesting front living setup, 20ft garage area NOT counting WD closet. Height in the kitchen may be not so great. Maybe $60-70k used V3916TK - approx 16ft garage McKenzie (Monoco) Dune Chaser 34, 38CK - 20ft to first cabinet + 3.5ft into kitchen 34SKS - 15-9 to cabinet, 19 into kitchen/entry door space 35 and 38 SKS And I did go through a search trying to find smaller class A's or C's with 15k towing and those are also unicorns. Most rigs GVWR are pretty closely matched to the length of the rigs. You need to get up to a tandem axle to really increase towing.... and then suddenly you're at 42 feet in rig and adding 2 or 3 lbs in coach/chassis for every 1lb gain in towing capacity. There are a few rare exceptions such as Dynamax RV's but generally "short" and "15k towing" are mutually exclusive. The other thing people talk about is how ill-suited most RV's are for bumper pull due to the typically loooong overhang past the rear axle. That acts as a lever magnifying every extra pound in hitch weight. Towing a toad with 4 wheels down is fairly easy on the frame, but most trailers I would haul will have some heft in hitch weight and that is pretty hard on the rig, I hear. There is a device called a "trailer toad" you can get to solve this and I've also pondered if I could retrofit a lift axle on some RV to add capacity and protection from damage. A third option to solve this may be upgrading a rear axle and frame. So this seems to push me towards a toterhome or showhauler type unit, either pre-owned or custom build. One other option I'm looking at is doing some kind of 4x4 expedition vehicle on a Freightliner M2 chassis. One way or another I should be able to get some decent towing capacity out of that chassis. It's just not going to be as comfortable as a base vehicle as a Volvo tractor would be.

I was super excited about expediter trucks when I first saw them but the trucks that have a shower and toilet are still very rare. This 98" sleeper has a nice kitchenette and bunk running lengthwise but still no bathroom: https://www.expeditertrucksales.com/inventory/details/2014-freightliner-cascadia-reefer-98-custom-sleeper-424.php The only one I can find on that site with a toilet and shower is this 120 inch sleeper unit for $232K https://www.expeditertrucksales.com/inventory/details/2019-freightliner-cascadia-ca116-white-glove-tval-reefer-aa-custom-sleeper-322.php

I have been looking there a bit. Most things I like are out of my price range and I tend to nit-pick on the other things, probably too much, thinking I could do better myself. And I'm terrified that if I do try my own thing it will end up looking like some of the worst frankensteins on that site LOL. I'm registering in South Dakota which I think is one of the better places to do it. Just need 5 out of 7 amenities and a truck with a sleeper and APU can pretty much cover it. https://sddor.seamlessdocs.com/f/1017 Once I start thinking about expanding living space beyond the sleeper, it probably makes more sense to forget about using a sleeper at all, and instead build my own "ARI custom" type 10+ foot sleeper. Most factory sleepers are configured with the bunk crossing the back of the sleeper cab so that would have to be reconfigured to the side for a pass through, or the sleeper area reconfigured for another purpose. The good part about a factory sleeper is it would have the best, most clean integration to the driver/passenger seating, if that is important to someone, but that space is more awkwardly connected to the box behind it. And it is good for aerodynamics, but awkward geometry since the walls are not square I've seen some trucks where they connect a factory sleeper back through to a larger box converted to a full motorhome, and I think the truck would look better without the factory sleeper and just a bigger box conversion. Powerhouse Coach builds them both ways and has a lot of floor plans to consider: http://www.powerhousecoach.com/ Here's a DIY conversion with a crawl-through between the box and sleeper: https://youtu.be/Rq3bpJdTQ1Y My conclusion from looking at the above is it would be easier to have all the living space in the big box and forget about a factory sleeper. Do you get the longest wheelbase with the factory sleeper configured trucks? I'm not sure if I want to start with a daycab and add my "custom" box to it, or if I would get a longer wheel base with a factory sleeper and then chop it off or do a daycab conversion. I could also do a "fat boy" conversion to either of these or even to a straight truck.

Thanks to everyone for all the comments and feedback. A "mission profile" is a good idea and I've thought a lot about it. Unfortunately I go in circles! To clarify on my use case -- I will not have any commercial/prize/race use. I just want garage/workshop space as it will be more useful to me than anything else. As with a toyhauler, it becomes "flex space" and you can have drop down bunks, flip down seating or a flip down desk, or whatever. I think most of the time it may serve as an office/den, or maybe on side will be office and the other side a workbench. One aspect of your HDT lifestyle that appeals to me is that the HDT can become a "support vehicle" for your pull behind trailer.... extra power, water, and even ability to offload holding tank contents. I love the sensibility of this and that an HDT can pack a lot of weight. It seems natural to try to mesh all of the above with my desire for some garage/workshop/flex space. If I can tack on a wet bath and kitchenette, this could be my ideal tow vehicle. Plus, the roof of the garage would be ideal for a large solar array. At times I may just take trips in this vehicle alone. Other times I might opt to pull a fifth wheel or trailer with more living space. Since all my "infrastructure" would be built on the tow vehicle, I could keep the trailer fairly stock making it easier to change/upgrade over time. This "support" vehicle could also be a trailer pulled behind a class A or super C. But doing it with an HDT or showhauler/toterhome configuration would offer extra weight capacity, and if self contained for living quarters, would itself be a great, stand-alone boondocking rig even without pulling anything behind it.

I did check out expediter trucks but most of those don't even have a bathroom.... I think until you get to 10+ feet. It seems to be the "custom/legacy" sleepers that have the bathrooms and bigger kitchens and they are always selling for $$$ it seems. Probably cheaper to just convert a van box into a condo/toyhauler. There is a good variety of trucks here: https://www.expeditertrucksales.com/ and you will see that most still do not have a bathroom. Bummer.

Hi folks -- I'm looking at HDT's for my new rig but am having a hard time understanding if a sleeper is really useful. How much do you guys use the sleeper vs using whatever you are towing for sleeping, eating, relaxing, showering or relieving yourself? I've been drawn towards an HDT because I can't find a SHORT class A that is strong for towing a 10-15k car trailer or stacker, bumper pull or fifth wheel. I don't want a twin screw class A diesel pusher because a 40-42 foot rig is way more than I need, and apparently this is what you need for decent bumper pull towing specs. So this got me thinking about HDT trucks but I didn't realize that most sleepers have no shower/toilet and have only the bare necessities for food/drink. Since legally we only get 65 feet for the most part in length (yes, I know that many of you guys are over that and it usually isn't a problem), it seems most efficient to me to have all the living quarters either in the tow vehicle or in the trailer. When I add up the length of the nose of the HDT plus the sleeper -- it seems like that's a lot of feet that may not be the most efficient use of space. I think most of you guys are pulling 5th wheels so it strikes me that sleeper bunks and amenities really duplicate what you are towing behind you. So is this the least efficiently used space on your rigs? Is it more there because it makes it possible to register and use the truck as an RV, or does it get a lot of use? Do you use it day to day when in camp or only on travel days? Is it mostly useful for comfort of the travel companion? (I'm single and travel alone so that wouldn't be useful case for me.) In my case, I would like just a bit more living space in the truck so I could use that as my primary living quarters. I'd then tow a race trailer or small car hauler that I would then use as a workshop or office when I am in camp. A custom 100+ inch "big bunk" sleeper, toterhome or Super C seem like better options for me but they are out of my price range. These are more "self contained" for living space and if I wanted to get into some smaller campgrounds I could just put my trailer into a storage facility for a short stay. Or maybe I should be looking at a HDT/MDT with a 25 to 30 foot box and no sleeper. Then I would use 18 feet for a garage and the rest for living quarters. The garage could transform to living space when camped. Is anyone here doing something like this?