Polk County judge issues stay-at-home order as a precaution due to COVID-19

[chirakawa]

I don't care for Mr. Patrick and don't agree with him on much.  However, this country is already headed for a deep recession.  If we enter into a depression, it may cost as many lives as this virus will and it will definitely change a way of life for billions of people.  It will set back the world's economy many decades. 

So, while not necessarily agreeing with him, I certainly can see his point.

[Barbaraok]

1 hour ago, chirakawa said:

I don't care for Mr. Patrick and don't agree with him on much.  However, this country is already headed for a deep recession.  If we enter into a depression, it may cost as many lives as this virus will and it will definitely change a way of life for billions of people.  It will set back the world's economy many decades. 

So, while not necessarily agreeing with him, I certainly can see his point.

Are you volunteering?  

[geodog]

There are 254 Counti8es in TEXAS to be exact.

 

ShortyO

[rickeieio]

2 hours ago, geodog said:

There are 254 Counti8es in TEXAS to be exact.

 

ShortyO

Yup, and as related in the article linked above, 105 of them have reported cases.  Hardly "virtually all".  Not saying it can't happen, but mis-information tends to fuel panic, thus irrational decisions.  Chill.

[chirakawa]

2 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Are you volunteering?  

For what?  What part of my post suggested anyone volunteer for anything?  Are you misrepresenting my posts again Barb?

I will say this.  If I were a younger working class person, I would continue to work if the country's leaders determined that it was in the best interest of our nation.  I worked through several deadly disasters in my career at risk to myself.  Today, on the news, I saw a video clip of the Governor of New York expressing second thoughts about how he had completely shut down the city.  I think it's unfair to criticize those who are having this very frank discussion, regardless of what their politics might be.

What I don't want to do is spend the final 10 years of my life (if I have that much left) in an economic depression without the pension and retirement income that I spent over 40 years working and saving for.  It could all be gone quickly, and what little might remain could be worthless, ravaged by inflation.  An economic depression would destroy the standard of living that most of us retirees worked for and have been able to enjoy up to this point.

[2gypsies]

On 3/26/2020 at 4:58 PM, Big Rick said:

The virus is serious and very contagious. However, I feel we are giving up too much of our liberty for possible safety

... so... you'd rather go to a ballgame or concert and get the virus rather than giving it up?  Our liberty doesn't mean we can do anything we want.

[Big Rick]

Not saying that  at all, but giving the government the authority to say who can work and who can’t is a big step in the wrong direction 

 

EDIT

just read where some have filed legal challenges to stay at home, shelter in place orders which are likely to be granted

Edited March 28, 2020 by Big Rick

[Kirk W]

56 minutes ago, Big Rick said:

Not saying that  at all,

I think that the major part of this is the fact that so little is known and we have been living in an information age. It has always been true that what you don't know can hurt you but we who live today have little experience with life conditions that nobody, not even scientists have any idea where to look for answers. Many of the current directives will only be effective if the majority of us obey them, since there is little enforcement effort and probably never will be. I think that much of what is being directed comes from fear of the unknown and the belief that too much is better than too little. My own view is that we need to support these efforts to the fullest extent, at least long enough to see if it really changes things. Historically, disasters and wars have been a unifying force in our country and I pray that this works out that same way. There seem to be some early signs that it could be the thing to bring our splintered society back together again. 

[chirakawa]

5 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

Historically, disasters and wars have been a unifying force in our country and I pray that this works out that same way. There seem to be some early signs that it could be the thing to bring our splintered society back together again. 

I agree, but I presently have a retirement income and can afford to sit at home and do nothing but philosophize.

On the other hand, this is a hard sale to my son.  Yesterday morning when he went to work, he was a 15+ year employee of a small locally owned business.  Last night he was unemployed, because the County instituted a stay at home order during the day.  Normally, he would be up early this morning out looking for another job, but that is prohibited activity...........and who's hiring?  So, I'm sure that instead he is at home wondering how to pay his bills for the next few months until the doctors are satisfied this threat has passed.

I'm just saying that it's not so easy as "everyone just stay at home until the boogeyman goes away".  Most of the experts, scientists and doctors are saying that this could easily go on until the Fall, and then start all over again.  Governor Cuomo said yesterday that this is a matter of many weeks yet for NYC and it hasn't even begun good in rural America.

I don't have any answers.  I just hope that the cure isn't worse than the disease.

On a lighter note, did you see the story about the 90 year old who survived this thing?  Watch the short video Here

[Kirk W]

23 minutes ago, chirakawa said:

I'm just saying that it's not so easy as "everyone just stay at home until the boogeyman goes away".

No question about that. We with a solid retirement do clearly have the advantage in this time. I will agree that the length of time we do this is a valid issue. 

[Barbaraok]

Every major supermarket chain is hiring - yes they aren't high paying jobs, but they are jobs.  Albertsons (Safeway), Kroger, Walmart, etc. are all hiring.  Hard work, yes.  Needed work, YES.  

 

3 hours ago, chirakawa said:

I don't have any answers.  I just hope that the cure isn't worse than the disease.

We're talking about deaths.  Are you ok with that?   And younger individuals are dying.  If you want to be able to survive, there must be treatment space/supplies available.  Flattening the curve does that.  

Why do so many people question the science?  

BTW, lots of older folks will survive the disease.   My cousin's 70 yr old husband has just recovered.  They live in Washington State.   He said it was more of a heavy, heavy cold for him.  But he has NO underlying health problems.   And a lot of people who are older (or younger) will survive if they get supportive treatment, including ventilators to ensure enough oxygen gets to the body.    If everyone had started the social distancing practice in January, the outlook would be quite different.      

Yes, this will go in waves until a vaccine is developed. Each wave will have fewer people infected because we will have more people with antibodies to the virus, thus they will not spread the disease.    After a vaccine is developed and in use, we will all sit and watch the anti-vaxxers try and convince people they don't need the vaccine, so it will continue to circulate through the unvaccinated individuals like measles, etc do now.

[docj]

3 hours ago, chirakawa said:

On the other hand, this is a hard sale to my son.  Yesterday morning when he went to work, he was a 15+ year employee of a small locally owned business.  Last night he was unemployed, because the County instituted a stay at home order during the day.

Not to minimize what your son and his family are going through, but I hope he is aware that the stimulus bill that was just passed includes a $600/week increase in unemployment payments for the next several months.  Some quick calculations show that if you take the "normal" unemployment benefit for most workers (~60% of salary) and add this $600/week supplement many folks have the potential to receive pretty much their full paycheck.  

Furthermore, the new law provides, for the first time, unemployment benefits to "gig workers" and independent contractors who have never previously been covered. My understanding is that in most cases people will be able to "self certify" their situations.

I hope this helps your son and others.

Joel

[chirakawa]

27 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

We're talking about deaths.  Are you ok with that?   And younger individuals are dying.  If you want to be able to survive, there must be treatment space/supplies available.  Flattening the curve does that.  

Why do so many people question the science?  

 

To answer your first question, I'm okay with dying.  It's part of life.  I'm willing to risk my life, if it means that the survivors would be spared the hardships and heartaches of a prolonged depression.  I never lived through one, but I knew and talked to a lot of people who did.  I've read about the Great Depression.  It's not something I want to see the world experience again.  There are worse things than death.

As to your second question, I believe in the science.  However, there's a lot that the scientist don't know about this virus.  For example, I haven't heard one scientist say that you can't get this virus again after recovering from it the first time.  Read through the CDC FAQ's and see how many times they say they are still learning or are not sure, etc.  When this started, the scientists were sure that the death rate would be 4% or higher.  Now, they're saying 1%.  They don't even know yet, because they don't know how many people already have the virus.

I also believe in the science of economics.  Most economists outside the government are not near as optimistic about the prospects after a prolonged work stoppage.  The government can only print so much money, and then it becomes worthless.

As far as how this may be if we had started this in January, who knows.  It's hard for people to take something serious that they haven't seen or aren't familiar with.  I guess it's the same as why people don't evacuate during hurricanes.  I think it's difficult to do successfully without enforcement. 

Just to be clear, I fully support what actions the authorities are taking and have taken.  I've been a hermit for a month now.  I'm trying to do my part.  I've encouraged others to do the same.  Doesn't prevent me from questioning and being concerned about the cause and effects.

[chirakawa]

1 hour ago, docj said:

Not to minimize what your son and his family are going through, but I hope he is aware that the stimulus bill that was just passed includes a $600/week increase in unemployment payments for the next several months.  Some quick calculations show that if you take the "normal" unemployment benefit for most workers (~60% of salary) and add this $600/week supplement many folks have the potential to receive pretty much their full paycheck.  

Furthermore, the new law provides, for the first time, unemployment benefits to "gig workers" and independent contractors who have never previously been covered. My understanding is that in most cases people will be able to "self certify" their situations.

I hope this helps your son and others.

Joel

Yes, thanks.

I've been reading up on the details as they trickle out.  Actually, he's been talking to the owner about the available loans to try and maintain payroll for a while.  It's a loan which doesn't have to be paid back if the owner maintains his payroll.  It's only good for 8 weeks so it's kind of risky for the business owner, and since this owner is in his 70's he may decide it's a risk he's not willing to take.  The owner actually sent them home yesterday thinking they most likely would be laid off, but kept the possibilities open until Monday morning when he will announce his final decision.

My son can probably get by on the unemployment benefits you describe for a while.  No way he could pay his bills on a stocker job at Walmart or Kroger.  Young people are flocking to those jobs in my area.  They don't have children, mortgages, home insurance, etc.

[sandsys]

3 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

We're talking about deaths.  Are you ok with that?  

Nick Russell had an analogy in his blog today that spoke to me. I don't remember his wording so here's my version of it:

You have 100 pieces of your favorite candy. Three contain poison. Two only have a little poison so you will just get mildly ill. One has enough poison to make you very sick and, possibly, kill you. How many pieces are you going to eat? How many pieces would you let your kids/grandkids eat?

Linda Sand

[Barbaraok]

Analogy doesn't quite work because those pieces of "candy" can infect each other.  Since the infection can pass from one piece of candy to the next, then the correct choice is not to pick any piece of candy.   

[Pat & Pete]

1 hour ago, Barbaraok said:

Analogy doesn't quite work because those pieces of "candy" can infect each other.  Since the infection can pass from one piece of candy to the next, then the correct choice is not to pick any piece of candy.   

You mean to say that you'd chance any of the candy in the aforementioned scenario ? 

[oldbutspry]

10 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Every major supermarket chain is hiring - yes they aren't high paying jobs, but they are jobs.  Albertsons (Safeway), Kroger, Walmart, etc. are all hiring.  Hard work, yes.  Needed work, YES.  

 

We're talking about deaths.  Are you ok with that?   And younger individuals are dying.  If you want to be able to survive, there must be treatment space/supplies available.  Flattening the curve does that.  

Why do so many people question the science?  

BTW, lots of older folks will survive the disease.   My cousin's 70 yr old husband has just recovered.  They live in Washington State.   He said it was more of a heavy, heavy cold for him.  But he has NO underlying health problems.   And a lot of people who are older (or younger) will survive if they get supportive treatment, including ventilators to ensure enough oxygen gets to the body.    If everyone had started the social distancing practice in January, the outlook would be quite different.      

Yes, this will go in waves until a vaccine is developed. Each wave will have fewer people infected because we will have more people with antibodies to the virus, thus they will not spread the disease.    After a vaccine is developed and in use, we will all sit and watch the anti-vaxxers try and convince people they don't need the vaccine, so it will continue to circulate through the unvaccinated individuals like measles, etc do now.

But you should know it's not as simple as that. They make a flu vaccine each year and yet mutations create new strains so it never really goes away. Influenza and COVID-19 are both RNA viruses so they have high mutation rates. There's a real possibility new strains of COVID-19 will emerge and this will become an on-going multi-year struggle to stamp out this virus. You're smart enough that you must be aware of this possibility but I suspect you left it out because it doesn't fit your argument. 😉

[bigjim]

16 hours ago, Big Rick said:

Not saying that  at all, but giving the government the authority to say who can work and who can’t is a big step in the wrong direction 

 

EDIT

just read where some have filed legal challenges to stay at home, shelter in place orders which are likely to be granted

Not easy to decide in a tough situation but it is based on the common good. 

[Barbaraok]

4 hours ago, Pat & Pete said:

You mean to say that you'd chance any of the candy in the aforementioned scenario ? 

No because all should be seen as ‘poison’ .

[Barbaraok]

1 hour ago, oldbutspry said:

But you should know it's not as simple as that. They make a flu vaccine each year and yet mutations create new strains so it never really goes away. Influenza and COVID-19 are both RNA viruses so they have high mutation rates. There's a real possibility new strains of COVID-19 will emerge and this will become an on-going multi-year struggle to stamp out this virus. You're smart enough that you must be aware of this possibility but I suspect you left it out because it doesn't fit your argument. 😉

Influenza strains mutate fairly frequently, but the biggest problem is the number of the ‘flu viruses’ and the fact that they wax and wane, so every year is a roll of the dice to predict which viruses will appear the following year.  H1N1 is the virus’s that caused the 1918 pandemic.  It reappeared in 1975-76 as ‘Swine flu’, I had the vaccine in 1976.   Vaccines help even when a virus mutates because not all of the sequences in the RNA change.   I am not sure what argument you think I have, other than until some therapies and a vaccine are created, social distancing is the best line of defense.   Are you too young and didn’t live with the fear of polio?   

[sandsys]

21 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

No because all should be seen as ‘poison’ .

Precisely!

Since there's no way to know who has been exposed but not yet showing symptoms, there's no way to know which are poisoned. Stay home, people. Whatever your home is.

Linda

[Big Rick]

Should people stay at home, likely

 

Should they be forced? If you comply and stay at home and they don’t, how does their stupidity affect you?

[Barbaraok]

We all end up paying for the increased cost to hospitals to try and save their lives.  

[Kirk W]

It would seem to me that the more completely we keep the present restrictions, the more quickly the actions will be effective.