HEPA Filters. Some mental gymnastics during idle times.

[SuiteSuccess]

For all you smart recluses sitting around, how about some mental gymnastics?  The Covid-19 virus is approximately 0.125 microns in size.  HEPA filters are very effective at capturing particles down to 0.01 microns.  Can an effective filter/mask combo be made at home that would be protective for any forays into public that are absolutely necessary?  Assume N95 respirator masks are not available for purchase.  Problems to consider: 1.  O2 ingress, CO2 egress.  2.  Tight fit.  3.  Ease of breathing.  If you’re heaving to get a breath, isn’t going to be much good.  HEPA filters are fairly ubiquitous for vacuums and air purifiers.  Might require a small battery driven air pump to create positive pressure.  Aquarium pump?

Edited March 26, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[geodog]

Remain a HERMIT, this too will pass.

 

 

ShortyO

[SuiteSuccess]

1 hour ago, geodog said:

Remain a HERMIT, this too will pass.

 

 

ShortyO

We are Shorty.  Just trying some mind games to keep my brain active.  Thought others might enjoy some homemade fun.  My dad was a master of homemade.  Give him some duct tape and rope  and he could build you a Mercedes.

[rickeieio]

1 hour ago, SuiteSuccess said:

Give him some duct tape and rope  and he could build you a Mercedes.

Problem is, back in the mid '90s, Mercedes found out about your dad, and stole his idea.  We had a '95 MB pos.

But back to the filter.....You mention a pump and such.  What are you trying to do?  Filter air coming into the home?  If so, just use a shop-vac with the appropriate filter and a hose on the discharge side.  Dump out the cat hair and dry wall dust first.

[SuiteSuccess]

5 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Problem is, back in the mid '90s, Mercedes found out about your dad, and stole his idea.  We had a '95 MB pos.

But back to the filter.....You mention a pump and such.  What are you trying to do?  Filter air coming into the home?  If so, just use a shop-vac with the appropriate filter and a hose on the discharge side.  Dump out the cat hair and dry wall dust first.

Rick, 

I’m not trying to do anything.  Since I was tired of Andy Griffith reruns, my idle mind wanders and I come up with some “what if’s “.  Was just thinking what if I wanted to develop my own Covid protective device using stuff I might have at home, how would I do that?  The project is something portable you could wear if needed to the supermarket or some other place if it is the worst case scenario and you assume rampant infection and infected surroundings.  So not reinventing a better wheel just keeping occupied.  Thought others might like a mental challenge.  Sometimes fun to tax your creativity.

[geodog]

I worked for 30+ years in an industry that depended upon Duct Tape and Cap wire or pin flags to survive.

Cap wire was the wire from the blaster to the detonation cap for dynamite while pin flags were the wire flags you see on surveyed lines.

 

ShortyO

[hone eagle]

I thought the virus is not airborne ? So breathing it in is unlikely ? 

touching your face, fiddling with a aquarium air pump (have you listened to one )   plus the cord will limit your travel distance...........

wish I could photoshop , what a hoot  can anybody mount a fuel filter on a baseball cap?

[rickeieio]

Swap out the filter for a hepa-1 and convert to run on a 12v battery.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=5749&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=CS209&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpfHzBRCiARIsAHHzyZqh-uUrOGdWxzsP8LcSu0opPkDewTD7dA7BDd19zTf92ZoqpHPtCHgaAqEYEALw_wcB

That was too easy.  NEXT..............😋

[SuiteSuccess]

18 minutes ago, rickeieio said:

Swap out the filter for a hepa-1 and convert to run on a 12v battery.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=5749&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=CS209&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpfHzBRCiARIsAHHzyZqh-uUrOGdWxzsP8LcSu0opPkDewTD7dA7BDd19zTf92ZoqpHPtCHgaAqEYEALw_wcB

That was too easy.  NEXT..............😋

Now you’re thinking Rick😊...BUT you’ve got to play the game.  Homemade (McGiver) not totally ready made.  That takes all the fun out of it.  BTW are you one of those who tells everyone in the theater how the movie ends?  (Just kidding with you my friend, I know how creative you are).  BTW old motorcycle helmet some hose, computer pancake fan....hmmm.

Edited March 26, 2020 by SuiteSuccess

[rdickinson]

I do FA and safety in a number of areas so get to see other options.  In the shipyards we use a half mask with circular twist on filters, the filters are replaceable and the mask gets wiped out with BZK wipes. These particular masks will filter out welding smoke.  I've had to stand by on fire watch and hole watch.  I've asked for specifics but not heard back yet. 

You need to be clean shaven in order to get a fit test with them.

The N 95's are supposed to be disposable but can last longer if stored properly.  I used a margarine container and labeled it....most don't.

A slightly better mask is the 'Fair Air' fire mask from Australia.  Spendy, but I bought 2, one for me and the other for my brother who works in a hospital where there has already been one worker who has contracted the virus.

This mask is re-usable and washable, also comes with an xtra filter.  It takes out slightly more of the .3 micron particles....98.6% and 100% of the bigger particles. So I'm covered. 

We get them from a Logging firm up Island.  $80 each or close to it.

I shop for groceries b/w 7 and 8 am when the shelves have been freshly stocked including TP.  Seniors and handicapped people only at that time.

Having looked at the products involved I don't see the reason why it can't be reverse engineered.  There isn't a patent on it yet.

Could the same not be done with these ventilators??  Are there off the shelf parts that could be cobbled together to accomplish the same result.....Or in FA terms, 'was the objective met'.  It may be ugly and unorthodox and not a streamlined and pretty as the current ones in use.

If a camera could be put in the nose of a Maverick missile and fed back to the A10 in the first Desert Storm, there should be enough creative minds and skilled hands to pull this off.

 

[rickeieio]

Hmmm, so, Carl, are you implying we need to use items on hand?  No shopping or outside sourcing?  Have you seen my shop?

[SuiteSuccess]

1 minute ago, rickeieio said:

Hmmm, so, Carl, are you implying we need to use items on hand?  No shopping or outside sourcing?  Have you seen my shop?

No outside sourcing is okay in this project (don’t want to say game, cause who knows with the intellects around here, we may come up with something useful and cheap that could be mass produced).  Just the outsourcing is parts only, not a completely finished product.

[SuiteSuccess]

26 minutes ago, rdickinson said:

I do FA and safety in a number of areas so get to see other options.  In the shipyards we use a half mask with circular twist on filters, the filters are replaceable and the mask gets wiped out with BZK wipes. These particular masks will filter out welding smoke.  I've had to stand by on fire watch and hole watch.  I've asked for specifics but not heard back yet. 

You need to be clean shaven in order to get a fit test with them.

The N 95's are supposed to be disposable but can last longer if stored properly.  I used a margarine container and labeled it....most don't.

A slightly better mask is the 'Fair Air' fire mask from Australia.  Spendy, but I bought 2, one for me and the other for my brother who works in a hospital where there has already been one worker who has contracted the virus.

This mask is re-usable and washable, also comes with an xtra filter.  It takes out slightly more of the .3 micron particles....98.6% and 100% of the bigger particles. So I'm covered. 

We get them from a Logging firm up Island.  $80 each or close to it.

I shop for groceries b/w 7 and 8 am when the shelves have been freshly stocked including TP.  Seniors and handicapped people only at that time.

Having looked at the products involved I don't see the reason why it can't be reverse engineered.  There isn't a patent on it yet.

Could the same not be done with these ventilators??  Are there off the shelf parts that could be cobbled together to accomplish the same result.....Or in FA terms, 'was the objective met'.  It may be ugly and unorthodox and not a streamlined and pretty as the current ones in use.

If a camera could be put in the nose of a Maverick missile and fed back to the A10 in the first Desert Storm, there should be enough creative minds and skilled hands to pull this off.

 

Could you post a picture?  The problem with what you describe is the filter.  Covid-19 is 0.125 micron and a 3 micron filter is not going to be helpful.  One of my original thoughts was taking the paper out of a 5 micron oil filter and sewing in between layers of cloth until I found the size of the virus.  Trouble is the smaller the pore size of the filter, the harder it would be to pull air through it with a breath and the harder to expel CO2 through it.  That got me to thinking about a positive pressure air source to push air through the filter.  Also the cure shouldn’t be worse than the disease so oil filter paper may be chemically laced which could cause harm.  Air purifier HEPA filters should be safe to incorporate.  Also the positive pressure would tend to push viral particles away from the edge of the mask enhancing safety.  As a retired medical professional, I often times wore an N95 mask for hours on end when HIV/AIDs first hit and we had no clue of it’s transmission.  It is exhausting just trying to breath through one of those for hours.

[rdickinson]

I will pop it out of the Ziploc bac and post pics from different angles.  These masks are worn for hrs at a time.  The filter taken out, washed and a second one put in till the first one dries.

The filter material is Alpaca hair.  Evidently it doesn't  'scale' as some other products would.  Wool balls up.  Marino wool along with cotton are the fabrics of choice for WLFFing.  These worn under the Nomex outers. 

No manmade fibes like polyprop, a hydrophobic material.  We're told these can melt and stick to the skin....My own thoughts are if your clothes are melting you may have more serious things to worry about.

Having said all that, from what I see some of the problems with the N 95 are they are not worn properly.  The metal band over the bridge of the nose is not being pushed in to conform to the face.  Doesn't matter if you wear a surgical mask over.  The N 95 still isn't in contact with the face.

 

I'd like to find out what are the properties this mask has that others don't....try to find a like product.  What's so special about Alpaca hair???  What about LLama or the next doors standard poodle.  Most of the mask looks like standard football jersey material with the holes.  Stitching is nothing special.  The rest of it looks like 'off the shelf' material.

I'd like to reverse engineer it.  Less waste.

If the filter was replaced for each patient....would that deal with the 1 mask per patient visit issue.

It would be quicker if I sent pics from my phone to your e-mail if that's OK??  I'll backtrack thru the rally info to find it.

If you want one, I'll call the outfit, pay for it and have them ship directly to you...mail or courier, whatever you want.

Mine has not been worn..It's still in the bag.

 

[Darryl&Rita]

The only special property of the marketed N-95 masks, is the testing behind them. An assumption has to be made that the item is, in fact, a legitimate item, and not a cheap clone. 

[rdickinson]

You may want to read up on these.  They exceed the specs required.  You wear the 95, I'll use this one as will my brother at the hospital.

A good deal of the problem with the 95's is they are not worn properly.

75$ cn is not a cheap clone.

Wildland firefighters are dying of heart attacks due to build up of carbon in the blood.

Pics are on the way to ECRcarl@gmail.com

[rdickinson]

1 hour ago, SuiteSuccess said:

Could you post a picture?  The problem with what you describe is the filter.  Covid-19 is 0.125 micron and a 3 micron filter is not going to be helpful.  One of my original thoughts was taking the paper out of a 5 micron oil filter and sewing in between layers of cloth until I found the size of the virus.  Trouble is the smaller the pore size of the filter, the harder it would be to pull air through it with a breath and the harder to expel CO2 through it.  That got me to thinking about a positive pressure air source to push air through the filter.  Also the cure shouldn’t be worse than the disease so oil filter paper may be chemically laced which could cause harm.  Air purifier HEPA filters should be safe to incorporate.  Also the positive pressure would tend to push viral particles away from the edge of the mask enhancing safety.  As a retired medical professional, I often times wore an N95 mask for hours on end when HIV/AIDs first hit and we had no clue of it’s transmission.  It is exhausting just trying to breath through one of those for hours.

Positive pressure could work to a point, however too much pressure and it would come out thru the path of least resistance.   One being the top of the mask which could blow dust into the wearers eyes or if the air was high in humidity, fog up glasses. 

There are other N 95 type filters that have vents either at the very front or off to the side.  I don't know if they are a 1 way valve like a chest seal or not but I was told that with normal use the vented ones were not as effective as non vented.

Paint shops use a positive pressure helmet type device.  Air comes thru a hose, probably going thru a dryer and filter.  I'm sure that could be located on the Web.

Maybe hook it up to the hospital o2 supply at something less than 15 lpm.  Quick release air fitting.

[Steve from SoCal]

I use a 3M 6800 full face respirator with supplied air, a full face is the best protection.    They seem to be out of stock as well.

You can use a battery cpap with a hepa filter as the supplied air.      

[rickeieio]

I've been google-ing "furnace filter hepa 1 micron" with no success.  My thought was to fashion a simple shell or use a de-constructed motorcycle helmet, along with filter sheet to make a "box".  More surface area= easier breathing.  Some duct tape may be required.

[Darryl&Rita]

33 minutes ago, rdickinson said:

 

75$ cn is not a cheap clone.

 

That's how clones work, charge what seems like a reasonable price. If they were pennies on the dollar, everyone would suspect them. Charge double the regular price, everyone assumes price gouging. It's not hard to build a reasonable facsimile of the true mask, the devil is in the provenance. Or not, depending on how much effort the faker wants to put in. 

[rdickinson]

Then build one.

I'm not going to argue about it.  The data can speak for itself, familiarize yourself with it.

Here is a link to a Lee Valley Tools  hepa filter.  The specs are still only.3 micron.  We need to get it to .1 or less, or fewer.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/filters/64681-hepa-filters

 

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

I just happen to have a 3M full face with two twist-off filters (one on each side) downstairs with spare filters and some 3M brand N95 masks in the garage.

Now you have me wondering about that big O2 tank in the garage. Not medical grade O2 but probably better than the alternative of not being able to breath if it completely hits the fan.

Might not live that long though. I think Vicki was loading one of my pistols earlier today and chuckling while looking my way.... This is one time that I keep coming back to one passage I actually like from the Koran.

"Let there be spaces in your togetherness "

[rdickinson]

There may be an oiler in the system for air tools.  BTW, on my shop compressor we punched a hole thru the block wall and put the air intake outside.  It made a difference in the noise level in the shop.

Stay away from people, have the groceries delivered by the food market if that service is offered.  Costs me 15 bucks a trip, order online or I go b/w 7 and 8 am like I said earlier.

Costco is a good place to go for gas, their personnel wipe each pump each time it's used.  That r go to a full service station where the employee pumps the fuel.  I pack med gloves and hand sanitizer wherever I go.

Full or half mask?

[2Auberts]

I still have my MCU2ap gas mask that has a screw on charcoal filter, so if I attach the cone HEPA filter from the wife’s Dyson V8 vacuum to the inlet of my gas mask filter, I’m good to go. Bonus is that I have hundreds of hours practice wearing it, minus the additional filter of course. 
Roy

[Imurphy907]

I have a PAPR for work since I'm a bearded fella. HEPA particle filtration. I have been wearing it more than just in dusty environments. Paired with Tyvek suites and gloves. I'm an essential employee and my wife has COPD and one of my daughters has asthma. Not risking bringing anything home. Been working from home for the most part but still required to do field work. Actually sitting in my truck on a job right now.