KEEP THE CAMPGROUNDS OPEN PETITION

[rynosback]

13 hours ago, docj said:

You aren't the only one.  What's scary to me is that I can't come up with a good solution scenario I believe in.  I continue to hope that there will be progress with respect to anti-viral drugs since many researchers think that we'll be able to find drugs that mitigate the disease before we will find a workable vaccine. 

It we could treat the disease effectively we might be less afraid to simply let it run its course.  We "live" with seasonal flu and are willing to take the 0.1% fatality rate.  What makes COVID-19 so scary is that we keep finding new "syndromes" related to it like the inflammatory response being found in some children and serious blood clots in some adults.  Until we better understand the scope of the disease it's difficult to know what fatality rate we're really dealing with.  At this point we don't even know for sure if people who have recovered from the virus are immune to it, even for a little while.

I think this last point is key to going forward.  If people who have recovered from the disease are unlikely to catch it again then a going forward path becomes  definable. Regardless of how many people die in the process, if we know there's survival "on the other side" at least that's a viable end state.  Those who survive the disease could go back to their normal lives and others could continue to take precautions depending on their risk levels.

However, one has to recognize that the alternative case could also be true--that people who survive the disease aren't immune to it and can catch it again.   I recently read a recent research paper where groups of people were studied with respect to catching other corona viruses a second or third time. The conclusion of that paper was that no immunity was conferred by having once had it but that in most cases the severity of subsequent cases was similar to that of a person's first case.  So if you survived it the first time you'd probably survive it if you caught it again.  There's no guarantee that this paper has any relationship to what will happen with COVID-19 but it is an example of what could be the case.

Sorry to end on such a cheery note.  I wish I could feel comfortable as to how this will end, but I'm not and I don't know what the "new normal" is going to be for the foreseeable future.

Joel (AKA docj)

The thing is that has been forgotten is once you have it, they say that it damages your lungs and who knows what else. So I worry about the long term effects that we have not even seen yet. Strokes are up in younger people from what I have read because of this among other ailments relating to blood clots.

I’m hoping that it does not mutate like the flew and the strains change, but it could just like the flu. If so, it could be here for a very long time.

Edited May 17, 2020 by rynosback

[docj]

8 minutes ago, rynosback said:

The thing is that has been forgotten is once you have it, they say that it damages your lungs and who knows what else. So I worry about the long term effects that we have not even seen yet. Strokes are up in younger people from what I have read because of this among other ailments relating to blood clots.

It's important not to lose sight of the fact that a large majority of people who contract it ether are symptom-free or have relatively mild cases.  But others get extremely ill, sometimes very quickly.  That's what I hope researchers get a better understanding of quickly.  What makes some people so sick and others barely sick at all.  That's consistent with the findings of that research paper I mentioned in my earlier post.  In it was reported that when people caught the disease again they seemed to have a severity similar to what they had had previously.  There appeared to be a genetic component that the researchers didn't know the cause of.

 

[mptjelgin]

1 hour ago, rynosback said:

Stuff as in information or reading someone self destruct? 

More the latter. But mostly watching someone very headstrong ask for "help", then ignore it, and ultimately implode on the road.  I don't wish her any ill will, but from her earliest posts I suspected that full-time RV'ing was going to end badly for her. 

[rynosback]

13 minutes ago, mptjelgin said:

More the latter. But mostly watching someone very headstrong ask for "help", then ignore it, and ultimately implode on the road.  I don't wish her any ill will, but from her earliest posts I suspected that full-time RV'ing was going to end badly for her. 

It sounded like it did. 

[hemsteadc]

15 hours ago, docj said:

 What makes COVID-19 so scary is that we keep finding new "syndromes" related to it like the inflammatory response being found in some children and serious blood clots in some adults.  Until we better understand the scope of the disease it's difficult to know what fatality rate we're really dealing with.  At this point we don't even know for sure if people who have recovered from the virus are immune to it, even for a little while.

Spot on.

There are too many unknowns at this point, so it's best to be ultra-cautious.  I'm 72 so I know I am.  

I just came from a Wal-mart where masks are "required", but I saw maybe 60% compliance.  Like crossing the street on a Don't Walk in front of hordes of people, I don't know what goes through some folks' minds.

Edited May 17, 2020 by hemsteadc

[Kirk W]

50 minutes ago, hemsteadc said:

I just came from a Wal-mart where masks are "required", but I saw maybe 60% compliance. 

We just order from them online and then go up and take advantage of their no contact pick-up service. In fact, I just finished putting in an order for Tuesday. Since we are 5 years older than you and have some health issues, we are being very careful. 

[hemsteadc]

58 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

We just order from them online and then go up and take advantage of their no contact pick-up service

Good plan.  The store was almost bare of meat.  Hoarding, I guess.  Saw a woman in her 80s not masked.

Edited May 17, 2020 by hemsteadc

[docj]

3 hours ago, Kirk W said:

We just order from them online and then go up and take advantage of their no contact pick-up service. In fact, I just finished putting in an order for Tuesday. Since we are 5 years older than you and have some health issues, we are being very careful. 

We go first thing in the morning during "senior shopping hour" at 7am on Tuesdays (at Walmart).   Since we have two freezers full of meat and lots of canned goods, most of what we shop for is produce.  Both my wife and I like picking our own produce items.

[rynosback]

1 hour ago, docj said:

We go first thing in the morning during "senior shopping hour" at 7am on Tuesdays (at Walmart).   Since we have two freezers full of meat and lots of canned goods, most of what we shop for is produce.  Both my wife and I like picking our own produce items.

I agree, but I’m only buying packaged produce, because if it is just open in a bin, you do not know who molested it or coughed or sneezed on it. This way I know the produce was last touched by the person who packaged it. It costs a little more, but well worth the security in my opinion.

Edited May 18, 2020 by rynosback

[rpsinc]

I have worked in places that package produce.  Most would have some sort of sanitizing spray for the veggies before they went into the package.  By the smell, it didnt seem like some toxic stuff but rather to wash and clean and provide lubrication for the bagging of the produce, usually done by machine.

[docj]

1 hour ago, rynosback said:

I agree, but I’m only buying packaged produce, because if it is just open in a bin, you do not know who molested it or coughed or sneezed on it. This way I know the produce was last touched by the person who packaged it. It costs a little more, but well worth the security in my opinion.

I can get lettuce, spinach, etc, in packages, but that's a bit more problematic for apples, pears, etc unless I want to go to Sams or Costco and get large quantities.

Furthermore, until we get widespread accurate testing, why should I trust that the person picking my groceries is free from the virus.  I feel safer getting everything myself.

Edited May 18, 2020 by docj

[rynosback]

3 hours ago, docj said:

I can get lettuce, spinach, etc, in packages, but that's a bit more problematic for apples, pears, etc unless I want to go to Sams or Costco and get large quantities.

Furthermore, until we get widespread accurate testing, why should I trust that the person picking my groceries is free from the virus.  I feel safer getting everything myself.

Because the virus lives on a surface for a certain amount of time. I would think that the time would be up by the time that it was packaged until you opened it and ate it. Like I said, I think it is way safer then picking it myself. As it could of just been contaminated minutes before I picked it up. Again just my precautions I’m taking.

[justRich]

Our simple precautions:

Mask
Long sleeves
Gloves
Hat
Hand sanitizer in the car
Hand washing on arrival home

Arrival packages: left for three days or wiped before opening and hand washing after.
The new normal.

 

 

[docj]

2 hours ago, Rich&Sylvia said:

Our simple precautions:

Mask
Long sleeves
Gloves
Hat
Hand sanitizer in the car
Hand washing on arrival home

Arrival packages: left for three days or wiped before opening and hand washing after.
The new normal.

There's been a lot of public discussion about the use of gloves.  We had been using them but the consensus now appears to be that, outside of a medical facility, they may end up causing more of a problem than they prevent.  The argument is that gloves get contaminated from the things they touch and most people don't engage in hand washing when they have gloves on.  Therefore, you can end up walking around with contaminated gloves that are contaminating other things you touch.

In a medical facility you would throw your gloves away whenever you move from one patient to another but that' not how people use them in the outside world.    

What we're now doing is to keep disinfectant wipes in the car and we use them each time we come out of a store.  That way we don't contaminate the steering wheel and other aspects of the car.    But we're no longer routinely using gloves.  

That's JMO and not suggesting that anyone follow it.

[2gypsies]

I agree. Gloves offer no more protection than bare hands.  You have gloves on and pick up an item and then grab your cart.  Your cart now has a possibility of being contaminated; same as if you were just using your hands.  Unless you dispose of the gloves immediately after putting the one item in your cart  and putting a new pair on before you touch the handle of the cart you're not getting rid of the virus.

So... you continue shopping and repeat touching everything with either your gloves or just your hands and on to your cart handle.  Then you go to pay.  You handle your purse or wallet with finding your payment card.  Your payment card is now contaminated along with the receipt that the cashier just gave you and the bag handles the bagger touched.  You get to the car and handle your keys and the car door handles. At this time you either take off your contaminated gloves or with your bare hands you reach for the sanitizer which now has the virus on the bottle.

Bottom line... you're not going to be completely free of exposing yourself to the virus.  You just do the best you can and don't over-obsess with it.

By the way, I hope everyone is disposing of those gloves properly.  We're seeing more and more of them just laying in the parking lot.

[Zulu]

On 5/16/2020 at 4:14 PM, rynosback said:

What is going on here? I posted this thread two months ago for RVers to sign a petition to keep campgrounds open. Especially for us full timers and workers who live on the road to follow the work. Seemed to be going smoothly until the last couple of days. Just trying to understand the friction that some people are causing. This thread was intended to help us RVers and make sure that we had a place to stay, plane and simple. And this was the best place to post it as Escapees looks out for our rights as RVers. Am I missing something? 

Well, since you wrote this, there have been about a dozen posts (several of which are yours, ryno) about the long-gone Independent Lady. The remaining posts are a mix of shopping advice and the dangers of getting infected. All of which really run counter to the idea of keeping campgrounds open.

To answer your question Am I missing something? Yes, you are -- Independent Lady's posts were more on topic than any of the posts that followed hers.

[2gypsies]

Two months have passed from the date of the petition.  Wondering if it had any effect.  Campgrounds in public parks don't seem to be opening.

[trostberg]

On 5/14/2020 at 6:22 PM, Darrel1953 said:

I’m willing to spend time everyday trying to get the state and national parks open for self contained RV’s. It only makes sense. Please let me know of any ways I can help.

TIA

Check out volunteer.gov   They can probably use extra help in the campgrounds to get them open

 

[justRich]

Gloves:  The white cotton archival type.
You assume the latex gloves of course - sorry for not explaining.

The gloves help remind me to not touch my face.
I don't want to skin touch surfaces in public.
My hands always have minute open cuts (learned by immersion in dichroic fog film development)

Cotton gloves get tossed in the wash.
After removing gloves, hand sanitizer is used.
Then hand washing upon arriving home.

Your protocol may vary.
And remember, the CDC said the use of masks was not a good idea.

 

[Kirk W]

45 minutes ago, Rich&Sylvia said:

And remember, the CDC said the use of masks was not a good idea.

That is an interesting comment, as the following comes from the CDC website.

Quote

 In light of this new evidence, CDC recommends wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain (e.g., grocery stores and pharmacies) especially in areas of significant community-based transmission.

It is critical to emphasize that maintaining 6-feet social distancing remains important to slowing the spread of the virus.  CDC is additionally advising the use of simple cloth face coverings to slow the spread of the virus and help people who may have the virus and do not know it from transmitting it to others.  Cloth face coverings fashioned from household items or made at home from common materials at low cost can be used as an additional, voluntary public health measure.

The cloth face coverings recommended are not surgical masks or N-95 respirators.  Those are critical supplies that must continue to be reserved for healthcare workers and other medical first responders, as recommended by current CDC guidance.

Here is a link to a post from a scientist who is studying the spread of COVID19, and his recommendations on what to do that will lower your risk when going out. 

The Risks - Know Them - Avoid Them

Edited May 19, 2020 by Kirk W

[rynosback]

On 5/18/2020 at 11:57 AM, Zulu said:

Well, since you wrote this, there have been about a dozen posts (several of which are yours, ryno) about the long-gone Independent Lady. The remaining posts are a mix of shopping advice and the dangers of getting infected. All of which really run counter to the idea of keeping campgrounds open.

To answer your question Am I missing something? Yes, you are -- Independent Lady's posts were more on topic than any of the posts that followed hers.

Are you missing something, Yes. Most of the posts she deleted herself, so you are missing half the story. But that is OK, you are welcome and entitled to believe what you want. 

You caught me, I’m being so reckless, said with sarcasm. I’ve been one of the few that wear a mask in stores and when out around people. I also step away from people when they come toward me, because if I did not they would walk by me inches from me. And all this is in small towns. 
I just think it is strange that people have the belief that campgrounds should be closed on a forum that is about RVing and more so full timing, just my thinking. 
Be safe, I know I am doing everything I can do from the campgrounds I’m staying in. 
Since you seem that she was on point more then me and the other members, she is single and lives in the NW. Just saying.

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by rynosback

[justRich]

On 5/19/2020 at 7:40 AM, Kirk W said:

That is an interesting comment, as the following comes from the CDC website.`

If you recall, the CDC did NOT recommend masks.  My post was meant as sarcasm as to how things change.  Sorry, did not mean to bait anyone;
 

Quote

The new guidance, announced Friday, is a reversal from previous CDC recommendations that face masks need to be worn only by people who are sick with COVID-19. . . .

https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions-treatments/info-2020/cdc-face-masks-public.html

 

[rynosback]

Compare  this to sex with questioning if you should wear a condom. If you want to reduce your chances of contracting a venereal diseases or become a parent, WHERE A CONDOM.  If you want to reduce your risk of getting Covid 19, WHERE A MASK. Why over think what makes sense? 

Edited May 22, 2020 by rynosback

[justRich]

12 hours ago, rynosback said:

Compare  this to sex with questioning if you should wear a condom. If you want to reduce your chances of contracting venereal diseases or become a parent, WHERE A CONDOM.  If you want to reduce your risk of getting Covid 19, WHERE A MASK. Why over think what makes sense? 

Precisely.
And today the CDC reverses itself again - 

Quote

The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention now says the coronavirus “does not spread easily” through touching surfaces or objects.

 

[agesilaus]

And Ft Detrick did a study on how well the virus survives in the sunlight and open air and found that it survives less than 90 seconds. Ft Detrick is the US Army biological warfare center in MD and is the world expert on this sort of thing.