KEEP THE CAMPGROUNDS OPEN PETITION

[rynosback]

12 hours ago, Independent Lady said:

Since we are dealing with a critical time in our history, I see being as self reliant as you possibly can, as the best choice, weather that be purchasing a small plot of land somewhere, camping in someone's backyard, or even buying a house. You can always sell it later and get back on the road later. There are choices out there, maybe not choices you like, but sometimes we have to take the bad with the good, or vice versa

Barbara

I just came back to edit this with one last bit of input here, 

Regardless of your own personal situation, we need to remember that campgrounds are transient places that attract any number of people from near and far. You may perfectly feel entitled to complain that you need a place to stay, but the fact is, you do have other choices. It doesn't matter how far apart your spot may be from your neighbor, or the bathroom being closed, or the water. This nasty thing can last in the air, be carried in the wind, and infect through your eyes. There's so much we don't know, and I respect what we don't know. Ignorance kills.

 

If I buy a townhouse right now like you suggested. My neighbors would be closer to where I’m camping. I have had people next to me in other campgrounds, be we social distananced per CDC guidelines. I have been moving from small town to small town avoiding cities. And TRUST me I am not the problem because I’m the transient. When I go to the grocery stores or Walmart’s I ALWAYS wear a mask. And 90% of the locals do not. To me, that is the problem and I hope that you see that. And you are correct, Ignorance can kill, and opening the campgrounds is not ignorant. There are tens of millions of homes in the US that make people live closer then a lot of campgrounds would. It’s all about how you protect yourself and use your common sense. I more worry about the long term effect of Covid which seems to have been forgotten about. 
The petition May not be doing anything, but doing nothing always results in nothing. Are you an Escapee member? I would think not as going by that thinking, Escapees does nothing to help RVers. 
I know that you called someone else out, but what you said just rubbed me the wrong way and I wanted to speak out. Please feel free to stay in your home while I move every week to couple of weeks.

This whole thing is a HUGE balancing act. Safety vs people’s livelihood. I’m retired, so it is not really effecting me, besides the stock market. What if I told you that your little town had to shut down and not open up to March 2021. How much of your little town could do that with out going bankrupt?  As Fall is your big tourist season. The financial effect goes way beyond what you can even think about. But like I said, it’s all about a balance but being safe.

Edited May 16, 2020 by rynosback

[Zulu]

8 minutes ago, rynosback said:

. . . opening the campgrounds is not ignorant . . . It’s all about how you protect yourself and use your common sense.

As someone currently working at a private campground, when we re-open (2 weeks? a month?), it probably won't be totally "opened". For example, we have to figure out how to "open" our currently closed laundry and restrooms. One person at a time? How do we keep track? How often will we sanitize? Do we fill ALL the campground spots or leave some vacant? So those of you expecting some magic switch to be thrown and life returning to normal are dreaming.

Common sense? I don't often hear that phrase and "American" in the same sentence. We've already had people get very belligerent and swear at us over the phone or in person because we have to turn them away. I can picture how bathroom "management" might go.

I'm sure all of you reading this are ideal campers, but there are some real coronajerks driving around.

[2gypsies]

6 minutes ago, Zulu said:

As someone currently working at a private campground, when we re-open (2 weeks? a month?), it probably won't be totally "opened". For example, we have to figure out how to "open" our currently closed laundry and restrooms. One person at a time? How do we keep track? How often will we sanitize?

I would think the easiest would be to allow only self-contained RVs and keep the bathrooms/laundry closed.  Of course, this would be impossible for tents or pop-ups so probably not feasible.  Even some state parks are not opening bathrooms and they normally get tenters so they're left out.  It's going to be just about impossible to keep RV parks sanitized.  There are just so many surfaces touched by the public.  What about picnic tables or even the hookup area. Are you going to sanitize after every camper leaves?  It's going to be a challenge, for sure.

[Kirk W]

6 hours ago, rynosback said:

The petition May not be doing anything, but doing nothing always results in nothing. Are you an Escapee member? I would think not as going by that thinking, Escapees does nothing to help RVers. 

If an RV is your only home, which is true for many Escapee members and a growing number of families, it becomes critical that a place is provided for them when you ask them to stop traveling about. Because full-timers are such a small portion of the total population, politicians and government officials often overlook them. As you say, it may not help but at least we are trying. Some posts demonstrate that the author has no grasp of the issue for full-time RVers and are a perfect example of why they get overlooked. With this being a forum that is open to the public, you will always see ideals that are intelligent and some that are not.

[Dutch_12078]

I'm a full time RV'er that's currently on a non-campground site where I can stay as long as I want to. However, just like when I'm moving from time to time, I still go to stores to resupply, I still go to gas stations to refuel,  and I do mask and glove up on those occasions. What difference does it make whether I do those functions repeatedly in the same town or in different towns along my route? I don't know what campgrounds you visited during your fulltiming tenure, but the parks we choose have adequate separation between sites and we can go days without going anywhere near anyone else if that's what we prefer. In March, we traveled from Florida to upstate NY with six park stops along the way and never had to enter a park office to check in. Millions of people are living in apartment buildings where distancing from others in the hallways, lobby's, laundry rooms, etc, can be difficult at best. Millions more are traveling to work every day where distancing, etc., can also be difficult. As fulltime RV'ers, I suspect most of us are in better isolation situations than many other folks whether we stay put or move from time to time...

[Kirk W]

Since this is a forum for people who RV I will make the following post for my fellow RV travelers. If you hate RV travel, don't bother to read it. This is a pretty good article about the problems folks are currently experiencing. 

Sheltering in Place in an R.V. Is Not as Fun as It Sounds

[Dutch_12078]

There's no question that RV travel can be challenging right now, although it looks like some restrictions are being lifted soon. I think the 14 day minimum stay restrictions in some states might be the easiest to comply with since they don't restrict travel, just the frequency of travel.

[Randyretired]

Colorado is opening many campgrounds.

[chirakawa]

Barbara, it's obvious that you are an intelligent person with strong beliefs.  I admire that.  However, I'm not sure I fully grasp what you're suggesting.

It's great that you can live in the woods and eat from your garden and avoid all human contact.  You do realize that all 300+ million of us can't do that.  The vast majority of us (probably 99.9%) depend on others for such things as food, clothing, medical care, drugs, fuel, shelter, etc.  How is it different if I live in a house in a subdivision, a cabin in the woods, an apartment building, or an RV in a campground.  I still have to interact with others for my needs.  Even you referred to going to Walmart yesterday in your post.  Why are you at Walmart, spreading the virus?

I also take issue with your blanket statements about the government.  The government is we.  There are those who work for the government who don't care, but there are many who do care.  I've found over the years that such statements condemning our leaders' decisions are usually made by people who either (1) have never had to make critical decisions which affect the safety or livelihood of others or (2) expect the government to take care of them and keep them perfectly safe under all situations and they will never be happy.  All decisions made during a time like this are going to involve calculations of risk.  Whatever is done, people are going to die.

Why is it that when someone disagrees with us, it's always out of fear or ignorance?  Maybe they just disagree.

In any case, I hope you stay safe and enjoy your little patch of Maine paradise.

[docj]

3 hours ago, Independent Lady said:

Dutch, it does make a difference. You could very well and easily be spreading the virus without even knowing it. Different areas are affected in different quantities. I can see that you mean well, but again, I don't believe you see the danger.

Not to single out Dutch, but comments similar to his are being made on a continuing basis throughout RV forums.   "What's the danger in me traveling because I'm careful?"  As Barbara says, the danger is that you could easily be an asymptomatic carrier and by moving from place to place you could be unknowingly spreading the virus.  That's why so many open GC's have been refusing short-term stays.  This past week, in response to someone who posted that he was headed for the town we live in, I told him that, as far as I was concerned, I wished he wouldn't come here.

IMHO until people stop looking at this issue from the perspective of what is convenient for themselves and start looking at it from the perspective of the society as a whole the effort to "restrain" the virus is doomed.  When I see people rejecting the use of masks (to protect others) as a violation of their personal rights, I come to an easy personal decision that we're not going anywhere other than to the grocery store early in the morning once a week.  It won't matter to us what stores reopen, we're not going into any of them nor are we buying meals in restaurants for dine-in or carry-out.  I'm not saying that others need to apply this degree of caution, but, as my doctor said to me the other day, "6 feet apart is better than 6 feet under!"

For those of you who haven't thought about how much worse this could get before it gets better---

--Assuming that people who catch the disease are at least temporarily immune from getting it again, herd immunity will start to kick in when around >60% of the population has caught it. (if you don't understand the concept of herd immunity it's an epidemiological concept as to the point at which a pandemic is no longer self-sustaining because the percentage of immune people rises to where the virus can't find new people to infect--on a probabilistic basis).

--60% of 325 million people in the US is 195 million people who are likely to catch it in order to get to the 60%

--Let's assume that the virus has a fatality rate no worse than the seasonal flu (~0.1%) even though current data says it is roughly 5-7x higher.  Therefore, of the 195 million who contract it roughly 195,000 would die.  And that's assuming the fatality rate is no worse than the seasonal flu.

A month or so ago when people made statements like this they were scoffed at.  Now that the US death total is at ~87k the same statements don't sound so far-fetched.  I guess the "good news" is that we are more than a third of the way toward herd immunity.  What an accomplishment!  😷

 

[rynosback]

14 hours ago, Zulu said:

As someone currently working at a private campground, when we re-open (2 weeks? a month?), it probably won't be totally "opened". For example, we have to figure out how to "open" our currently closed laundry and restrooms. One person at a time? How do we keep track? How often will we sanitize? Do we fill ALL the campground spots or leave some vacant? So those of you expecting some magic switch to be thrown and life returning to normal are dreaming.

Common sense? I don't often hear that phrase and "American" in the same sentence. We've already had people get very belligerent and swear at us over the phone or in person because we have to turn them away. I can picture how bathroom "management" might go.

I'm sure all of you reading this are ideal campers, but there are some real coronajerks driving around.

There are a holes all over this planet. Close all of the facilities at the campground, like bathhouses, club houses, pools, laundry basically everything but the camping spots. This way the campground can stay open and still make money. And travelers have a place to stay. If someone did not like how I ran a campground then they could always take there business elsewhere. There would be no need to argue with them about it. This is the way that it is. If you don’t like it then feel free to move on. What I stated how they should run right now is “common sense”. Anyone with any should see that.

You are correct in saying, it is not like you can flip a switch and go back to the way it was. Things are going to be different for a long time if not forever.

Edited May 16, 2020 by rynosback

[Zulu]

6 minutes ago, rynosback said:

If someone did not like how I ran a campground then they could always take there business elsewhere. There would be no need to argue with them about it. This is the way that it is. If you don’t like it then feel free to move on.

Did you ever work at a campground?

[Randyretired]

54 minutes ago, Independent Lady said:

I had one final thought before I call it quits. To the person who doesn't see the harm in traveling, (and most likely many of you on here) here's a fact.

We don't know what we don't know, and what we don't know, is much about this virus. Early this year we were reassured that it only affected the older generation, then younger people starting dying, so they revised that theory. Then it was announced that children were immune, now children are dying and becoming ill with devastating features we don't understand. If anyone has read about the 1918 epidemic, I suggest reading, it talks about how viruses mutate. Clearly, this one is. So if there's a cluster of children in New York City getting sick, there very well could be a mutation of this virus, and on it goes to the next state as soon as someone goes camping, goes out to eat, whatever...

So that's another reason to stay put as much as possible. To the camper who thinks it's no big deal to go from one campground to another, where's your trash going, are you downwind from your neighbor? Is the water spiget cleaned  disinfected? I doubt it. 

Who used it last? Do you know? Are you going to sit at that picnic table without having a clue who was there last night? What about the campers after you? What if you're asymptomatic and don't find out till you've moved on to the next campground, or never find out?

I've done all I can to encourage independent thinking, but it takes guts. It takes guts to say I don't think so or I think you're wrong.

To that guy or anyone who thinks it's fine to travel, please don't come to Maine. If I see your out of state license plate I promise you I'm not going to be nice. I'm going to do everything I can to make you leave. Please be stupid on your own,

 

take care everyone,

Barbara  

It is nice for those of us who can to stay home but thankfully many are taking care of the essentials.  Taking care of essentials will spread this virus everywhere.  Isolation has proven not to work in the world as we know it because of what we need.  We will travel with our RV to our mountain ranch where we will spend the summer.  The cows don't care that there is a virus going around.  We take precautions but we have to live.  Thankfully we will be mostly isolated from other people but we have children that are deemed essential and they must work.  To threaten people who are out of state is not what we need.  Unless everything you need is grown, processed and assembled there.  Since nearly everything is imported this virus WILL be in your area.  

[chirakawa]

2 hours ago, docj said:

For those of you who haven't thought about how much worse this could get before it gets better---

--Assuming that people who catch the disease are at least temporarily immune from getting it again, herd immunity will start to kick in when around >60% of the population has caught it. (if you don't understand the concept of herd immunity it's an epidemiological concept as to the point at which a pandemic is no longer self-sustaining because the percentage of immune people rises to where the virus can't find new people to infect--on a probabilistic basis).

--60% of 325 million people in the US is 195 million people who are likely to catch it in order to get to the 60%

--Let's assume that the virus has a fatality rate no worse than the seasonal flu (~0.1%) even though current data says it is roughly 5-7x higher.  Therefore, of the 195 million who contract it roughly 195,000 would die.  And that's assuming the fatality rate is no worse than the seasonal flu.

A month or so ago when people made statements like this they were scoffed at.  Now that the US death total is at ~87k the same statements don't sound so far-fetched.  I guess the "good news" is that we are more than a third of the way toward herd immunity.  What an accomplishment!  😷

 

I respect everything you write on this forum because I know that it's always either experience based or supported by intelligent research.  I'm not doubting any of your comments.  I'm just another one of those ignorant people trying to learn.

So, in reference to this data you posted, what is your solution?  Do all of us non-essentials just hunker down for months (or years) until the country achieves the herd immunity on the backs of the doctors, nurses, first responders, food workers, and other essential workers?  And, will that reduce the death numbers any if a percentage of them are going to die anyway?

I totally understood the concept of staying at home so the hospitals wouldn't get overwhelmed or until they could get up to speed.  I think for people to continue to embrace this approach, they need a goal in it's purpose.  In the past two months, they saw the curve flatten.  However, they also saw their job of 15 years go bye-bye, the business they spent their lifetime building go under, their country go another 3 trillion in debt.

It could be years before a vaccine is ready.  Heck, how long have they been looking for a vaccine for HIV?

Like I said, I've got a whole lot more questions than answers.

[rynosback]

7 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Since this is a forum for people who RV I will make the following post for my fellow RV travelers. If you hate RV travel, don't bother to read it. This is a pretty good article about the problems folks are currently experiencing. 

Sheltering in Place in an R.V. Is Not as Fun as It Sounds

Well said.

[mptjelgin]

My wife and I volunteered at a National Fish Hatchery near Ellsworth , Maine the past two summers.  This is near Bar Harbor and a large number of homes in the area are owned by folks from New York, New Jersey, etc. and are used primarily as summer homes.  Many folks chose to "escape" the high incidence of COVID-19 in their home state by heading up to Maine early, and predictably the first confirmed cases in the area were from those folks. 

I was talking to a friend from the Hatchery and said something like "I'll bet you are angry that folks from New York brought the virus to Hancock County", but he was philosophical about it. He replied that it was going to arrive one way or another. With all of the commerce moving throughout the area from retailers as huge as Amazon and  Walmart down to service industries like plumbers and electricians, the virus was going to get transferred one way or another. 

Some folks see the situation in black and white, when in reality the entire thing is nothing but shades of gray.  Hindsight may be 20/20 in this case (probably not), but right now there are no absolute right/wrong answers. To imply that you know when a vaccine will be available, how to prevent further spread, when to open or further restrict travel, etc. is madness. And stating that folks from elsewhere better not come to YOUR state is just silly.  Do you intend to threaten these folks, or will you just be "checking them out" from a safe distance and running your mouth about it? I suspect the latter...

All each of us can do is try to make smart decisions based on the (often conflicting) information available to us. 

[2gypsies]

7 hours ago, Kirk W said:

Since this is a forum for people who RV ........

It is not only for people who RV.  It's a forum for those who are interested in RVing or who have RVd in the past.  There are no restrictions on who is on this forum.

Edited May 16, 2020 by 2gypsies

[rynosback]

1 hour ago, Independent Lady said:

I had one final thought before I call it quits. To the person who doesn't see the harm in traveling, (and most likely many of you on here) here's a fact.

We don't know what we don't know, and what we don't know, is much about this virus. Early this year we were reassured that it only affected the older generation, then younger people starting dying, so they revised that theory. Then it was announced that children were immune, now children are dying and becoming ill with devastating features we don't understand. If anyone has read about the 1918 epidemic, I suggest reading, it talks about how viruses mutate. Clearly, this one is. So if there's a cluster of children in New York City getting sick, there very well could be a mutation of this virus, and on it goes to the next state as soon as someone goes camping, goes out to eat, whatever...

So that's another reason to stay put as much as possible. To the camper who thinks it's no big deal to go from one campground to another, where's your trash going, are you downwind from your neighbor? Is the water spiget cleaned  disinfected? I doubt it. 

Who used it last? Do you know? Are you going to sit at that picnic table without having a clue who was there last night? What about the campers after you? What if you're asymptomatic and don't find out till you've moved on to the next campground, or never find out?

I've done all I can to encourage independent thinking, but it takes guts. It takes guts to say I don't think so or I think you're wrong.

To that guy or anyone who thinks it's fine to travel, please don't come to Maine. If I see your out of state license plate I promise you I'm not going to be nice. I'm going to do everything I can to make you leave. Please be stupid on your own,

 

take care everyone,

Barbara  

Feel free to call me out, I or many on here do not need to read between the lines to know that it is me. Why did you even post on this thread? You had NOTHING positive to add to it. I’m not angry or frustrated with you at all, as you have your right to your opinion. But how and where you decide to say it will invoke different reactions. Like telling us full time travelers (the Escapees forum) that we are “Wasting time on a petition to open campgrounds anywhere is just going to send you in the wrong direction, feed your anxiety, and frustrate you further.” It is the government that is shutting them down, not the campground owners. “since I quit living full time traveling. I tried it, found that I hated it, and now live off grid.” Why are you on a forum that is all about the fulltime lifestyle? Sure this was probably a great resource for you back then. But like you said, you hated it. So why still post on here? Is your thought to try to change our minds and live of the grid like you? I’m sure there are forums about living off the grid. Would that not seem like a better place to be? After all forums are about what interests people and brings us together. People who think other wise are just trolls in my book. 
I read on a latter post that you think you will not come back. That is your choice, but please think about what you say and realize what the membership is about. 
I’m not affecting any of the small towns as I’m social distancing , wearing a mask and wearing gloves when I pump fuel. I just find it interesting that you think I’m the issue and danger by following the CDC guidelines and the towns people are acting like nothing has changed in the world. If you want to continue this, I would be more then happy. But do it in a PM as the whole board does not need to subjected to your statements/opinions and my reactions to them. Glad to hear that you are enjoying your off the grid life.

[rynosback]

5 minutes ago, 2gypsies said:

It is not only for people who RV.  It's a forum for those who are interested in RVing or who have RVd in the past.  There are no restrictions on who is on this forum.

You are right that there are no restrictions. But are you aware that this is the Escapees mission statement? “Our mission is to provide a total support network for all RVers. ... educational resources like RVers Boot Camp, RVers Online University, SmartWeigh, and Escapeesmagazine. tightly-knit community of like-minded RVers, many of whom form lifelong friendships with other members.” I don’t know about you, but this sounds like it is about RVing to me. If your thinking about it, it’s a great resource from people with decades of experience. If you currently doing it makes this a great resource. If you decided to go off the road, you are still on here because of the friendships that you have made over your time on here.

[rynosback]

6 minutes ago, Independent Lady said:

Yeah, I have every right to say I don't want campers here. Too damn bad. Run my mouth? Who are you?

You sound like the type of person that would come up anyway and not care less about anyone else. .

 

Sure that is your right. But have you honestly read anything I have posted?  Well if you know that campers are heading your way, you can always relocate to a more secluded spot. We have rights as much as you do. WHO ARE YOU? If that area was where I wanted to be, then yes I would be there. And if you live off the grid and are isolated then you have little to worry about. Seeing what you are posting and where you are posting it tells me a lot about you. Let me give you an example, go to a Ford forum and tell them why they should not own a Ford but a Ram or Chevy. Would you not think that would get a reaction? For some reason you are not PMing me as I asked. Maybe you do not know how to. So I will PM you so if you care to debate this any further. 
WAIT. I thought you posted that you were leaving?

[rynosback]

9 hours ago, Kirk W said:

If an RV is your only home, which is true for many Escapee members and a growing number of families, it becomes critical that a place is provided for them when you ask them to stop traveling about. Because full-timers are such a small portion of the total population, politicians and government officials often overlook them. As you say, it may not help but at least we are trying. Some posts demonstrate that the author has no grasp of the issue for full-time RVers and are a perfect example of why they get overlooked. With this being a forum that is open to the public, you will always see ideals that are intelligent and some that are not.

I agree. But sometimes you have to have some fun and stand up to them. 😀

[rynosback]

18 minutes ago, Independent Lady said:

Yeah, I have every right to say I don't want campers here. Too damn bad. Run my mouth? Who are you?

You sound like the type of person that would come up anyway and not care less about anyone else. .

 

I never said anything about running your mouth. Try reading what I actually say and not what you think I’m saying.

[mptjelgin]

18 minutes ago, Independent Lady said:

You sound like the type of person that would come up anyway and not care less about anyone else. .

You're wrong. But if if helps you to feel better about yourself, believe what you'd like. 

[rynosback]

21 minutes ago, Independent Lady said:

I thought you didn't want to carry this conversation on here because no one wanted to bother reading what I was saying? Why would I want to tell someone not to buy a Ford? WTF?

Dud, I"m not thinking about me, but everyone up here in Maine. The majority of Mainers are elderly, you know, people who go to grocery stores and gas stations?

Why would I care to debate something with a guy who has no idea what I"m talking about?

Sure, come on up. It's your right. It's your right to do whatever you want and to hell with everyone else, Gee, what's wrong with that?

What a guy, you remind me of my ex husband, ha!

Seeing that you do not get my example tells me a lot. Let me try to break it down for you then.

This is a forum about RVing.
I started this thread about a petition that was going around to try and keep CG open. As that would displace a lot of full timers and workers.

You said that’s a waste of time.
And that is constructive how? If no one did anything to change anything, you as a woman could not vote. We would still be living back in the 1700s. So if you choose not to be part of the change of things, feel free to be the “sheep” as you commented earlier on and just follow the heard. 

Well, you have not responded to my PM. I did what I said what I would do. You are just choosing not to follow up. Buy the way, I’m red from laughing my a@@ off over here, not from being angry.

Edited May 16, 2020 by rynosback

[rynosback]

3 minutes ago, Independent Lady said:

I thought you didn't want to carry this conversation on here because no one wanted to bother reading what I was saying? Why would I want to tell someone not to buy a Ford? WTF?

Dud, I"m not thinking about me, but everyone up here in Maine. The majority of Mainers are elderly, you know, people who go to grocery stores and gas stations?

Why would I care to debate something with a guy who has no idea what I"m talking about?

Sure, come on up. It's your right. It's your right to do whatever you want and to hell with everyone else, Gee, what's wrong with that?

What a guy, you remind me of my ex husband, ha!

I can see why he left you. Since you brought it up. 😜