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Kirk W

NTSB calls out Tesla

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I watched a segment of TV about that. Apparently the driver was at fault, he was playing video games on his phone instead of having his hands on the steering wheel, as directed by Tesla. The auto-pilot stuff failed and he could not react.

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Yes, on my Tesla, if you don't turn the wheel slightly, or adjust one of the buttons on the wheel, every 10 seconds or so, screen will flash blue, alarm will sound, and auto pilot will disconnect. Sounds like my boy, when playing video games, the house could fall down around him and he would not notice it.

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What happens when the auto pilot disconnects?  Does the car come to a stop or just continue down the road unguided?  Neither sounds very safe in freeway traffic.

Edited by Lou Schneider

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3 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

What happens when the auto pilot disconnects?  Does the car come to a stop or just continue down the road unguided?  Neither sounds very safe in freeway traffic.

You get a loud alarm and a flashing blue screen,  if you are paying attention to the road like you should be, no problem,, it's called autopilot but is really just a driver assist, when it disengages, you slow down and lose lane keeping ability. you just put your foot on the gas and turn the wheel as in normal driving. It is just like what many other new cars have as options.

I like the Cadillac Super Cruise system better, it has a camera that looks at the drivers head and eyes, and if he is not looking forward, it will disengage autopilot.

 

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Don't expect me to defend a driver who acted like the Tesla was full autonomous when he was warned it was not, and told to be attentive while in autopilot mode. I'm not buying my Tesla Model Y for autonomous driving, whichdoes not come until later this year if then. I say if then because Tesla always delivers, but usually six months later than they'd hoped. But they have delivered on every promised tech goal for BEVs. Just late. I'm glad they do install all the hardware and the computers/cameras for full autonomous driving on all the new cars now so we can pay the fee if desired when full auto is ready. Then, to turn it on, costs $7k today, likely more later. I don't foresee me buying the add on software unless it is fully autonomous and I become disabled

The NTSB report states:

"Sumwalt said that Huang was likely playing a video game on his phone when his car veered into the median barrier. "So first let me say, if you own a car with partial automation, you do not own a self-driving car. Don't pretend that you do," Sumwalt said."

At the time of the collision, Huang’s Model X entered the area between an off-ramp and the main road, known as a "gore," before hitting the center divider. The NTSB investigation revealed that the line markings on the U.S. 101 side of the off-ramp were "partially obliterated" and faded, while the line markings on the off-ramp side were in good condition.

The Model X began to track the outside lane and placed the vehicle in the middle of the gore as if it were a lane. At that point, because it no longer was tracking a vehicle ahead of it, the vehicle sped up to 71 mph before colliding with the median. Neither the driver nor the Model X's safety systems attempted to stop or steer the vehicle away from the median." (from Kirk's link and article above)

Now, when Tesla declares their full autonomous system is ready for driverless operations then you can throw stones if it fails. As a new Tesla customer, I can tell you that every question I had about self driving was met with clarifying that auto pilot is not autonomous driving. That is coming, I was told, but you drive until then.

I am amazed at the brouhaha because this is not new to me. My wife is terrified of cruise control. Not adaptive cruise but regular cruise control. She feels out of control and will not use it on her cars. When she drives my car she won't even try the adaptive cruise with her in the driver seat.

All she has to do to turn it off is to take over by tapping the brakes, just like regular cruise. Nothing dangerous there. Just like the Tesla system.

Everything that could have saved his life, even with him being stupid, were already hit by others and the barrier was not repaired, nor were the road lines and markings clear. Possibly the reason the non Tesla driver hit it and demolished the cushioning barrier.

We have more cause to worry about drivers texting while driving. I saw them daily in Louisiana, and some here but not as much. 

It's tragic but self-inflicted.

 

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1 hour ago, RV_ said:

Don't expect me to defend a driver who acted like the Tesla was full autonomous when he was warned it was not, and told to be attentive while in autopilot mode. I'm not buying my Tesla Model Y for autonomous driving, whichdoes not come until later this year if then. I say if then because Tesla always delivers, but usually six months later than they'd hoped. But they have delivered on every promised tech goal for BEVs. Just late. I'm glad they do install all the hardware and the computers/cameras for full autonomous driving on all the new cars now so we can pay the fee if desired when full auto is ready. Then, to turn it on, costs $7k today, likely more later. I don't foresee me buying the add on software unless it is fully autonomous and I become disabled

The NTSB report states:

"Sumwalt said that Huang was likely playing a video game on his phone when his car veered into the median barrier. "So first let me say, if you own a car with partial automation, you do not own a self-driving car. Don't pretend that you do," Sumwalt said."

At the time of the collision, Huang’s Model X entered the area between an off-ramp and the main road, known as a "gore," before hitting the center divider. The NTSB investigation revealed that the line markings on the U.S. 101 side of the off-ramp were "partially obliterated" and faded, while the line markings on the off-ramp side were in good condition.

The Model X began to track the outside lane and placed the vehicle in the middle of the gore as if it were a lane. At that point, because it no longer was tracking a vehicle ahead of it, the vehicle sped up to 71 mph before colliding with the median. Neither the driver nor the Model X's safety systems attempted to stop or steer the vehicle away from the median." (from Kirk's link and article above)

Now, when Tesla declares their full autonomous system is ready for driverless operations then you can throw stones if it fails. As a new Tesla customer, I can tell you that every question I had about self driving was met with clarifying that auto pilot is not autonomous driving. That is coming, I was told, but you drive until then.

I am amazed at the brouhaha because this is not new to me. My wife is terrified of cruise control. Not adaptive cruise but regular cruise control. She feels out of control and will not use it on her cars. When she drives my car she won't even try the adaptive cruise with her in the driver seat.

All she has to do to turn it off is to take over by tapping the brakes, just like regular cruise. Nothing dangerous there. Just like the Tesla system.

Everything that could have saved his life, even with him being stupid, were already hit by others and the barrier was not repaired, nor were the road lines and markings clear. Possibly the reason the non Tesla driver hit it and demolished the cushioning barrier.

We have more cause to worry about drivers texting while driving. I saw them daily in Louisiana, and some here but not as much. 

It's tragic but self-inflicted.

 

I was under the impression that there were two computers. One that could have the capability to handle autonomous driving when activated and one that does not have that much computing power. As I would think the autonomies computer would have A LOT more computing to it over the other.

Edited by rynosback

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Good question! Beats me, but I'll find out. I've been waiting for good weather without gale winds to run up to Denver to Tesla for some scans and an upload to my account. I'll ask.

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18 hours ago, rynosback said:

I was under the impression that there were two computers. One that could have the capability to handle autonomous driving when activated and one that does not have that much computing power. As I would think the autonomies computer would have A LOT more computing to it over the other.

Actually Tesla has produced 3 computers,  2.0, 2.5 and 3.0. The 3.0 is necessary for full self driving when the software is completed and legal. For those that paid for FSD with the 2.5, Tesla is installing the 3.0 in those cars for free. All the newer cars come with the 3.0. The 3.0 computer allows better visualizations than the 2.5, but until the new FSD software comes out, no FSD on either computer. As Derek said, If you have a 3.0 computer, all you need to do is pay Tesla and get the software update. For me, a 2018 model, I have to get the updated computer first. I am on the list somewhere,  We are all Tesla Beta testers. They have recorded billions on miles on Tesla's over the years, analyze the data, and make OTA updates for corrections. My car used to have problems lane tracking when I first got it, especially when the line ended, like with an off ramp, but have had 5 or 6 updates since then, and now the car has no trouble with off ramps. Some of OTA updates, are not really OTA, because of the size of some of them, wifi is necessary.

Maybe the driver in the accident never got an update, but Tesla makes it very clear, that the driver needs to pay attention at all times.

 

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2 hours ago, jcussen said:

Actually Tesla has produced 3 computers,  2.0, 2.5 and 3.0. The 3.0 is necessary for full self driving when the software is completed and legal. For those that paid for FSD with the 2.5, Tesla is installing the 3.0 in those cars for free. All the newer cars come with the 3.0. The 3.0 computer allows better visualizations than the 2.5, but until the new FSD software comes out, no FSD on either computer. As Derek said, If you have a 3.0 computer, all you need to do is pay Tesla and get the software update. For me, a 2018 model, I have to get the updated computer first. I am on the list somewhere,  We are all Tesla Beta testers. They have recorded billions on miles on Tesla's over the years, analyze the data, and make OTA updates for corrections. My car used to have problems lane tracking when I first got it, especially when the line ended, like with an off ramp, but have had 5 or 6 updates since then, and now the car has no trouble with off ramps. Some of OTA updates, are not really OTA, because of the size of some of them, wifi is necessary.

Maybe the driver in the accident never got an update, but Tesla makes it very clear, that the driver needs to pay attention at all times.

 

Good to know, thanks for the information.I wonder at what version they will be when they are able to drive full autonomous? Where you could plot in the GPS where you want to go and do what ever you wanted. Then the GPS would would say, you have arrived to your destination. 

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The Tesla's with 2.5 and up have 8 cameras, 12 ultrasonic sensors, and one fwd reading radar. From  their announcements, the 3.0 computer can utilize all these for Full Self Driving. Trouble is now, writing the program, and getting government approval to implement it. If you enter a location, and go to auto pilot, the car will auto pilot on the highway and ever get off at the proper exit, but after that AP will shut off, and you will only get voice prompts. It can read stoplights and signs and shows them on the screen with 3.0, but does not react to them yet, other than a warning if you closing in too fast.

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Thanks James! We're changing our electric service from 100amp to 200 Amp and installing the 50Amp outlet to charge the Tesla when it comes in. They're dropping the power and my electrician is doing it tomorrow so fortunately it's sunny and warm here today and for the rest of the week.

We got 6" of snow last night and our Southwestern oriented from sidewalks and double driveway were cleared with no shoveling or snowblowing. The back patio is big pavers with a Northern exposure so I'm off to Shovel it in a light sweatshirt. 15 minutes tops. We love this place!

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Just curious what is the advantage of the auto-pilot if you have to have your hands on the steering wheel and have to punch a  few button  every 10 seconds to keep the auto-pilot energized?

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49 minutes ago, pinger said:

Just curious what is the advantage of the auto-pilot if you have to have your hands on the steering wheel and have to punch a  few button  every 10 seconds to keep the auto-pilot energized?

Actually, timed it today,  must apply slight pressure, or press one button, every 25 to 30 seconds. You only have to put your hands on the wheel then. As of now, it is not really autopilot, it is more like adaptive cruise control and lane keeping ability, with sensors to warn you of any cars around you if you want to make a lane change', which it will do automatically if safe, when you use your turn signal. Many cars on the market today have similar capabilities. Tesla has equipped all their newer cars with all the sensors necessary to take advantage of full self driving, when the software and legal issues are resolved, and will be able to do an OTA software update to implement it.

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Just go drive it Pinger! I've even heard of some overnight test drives. I'm not a tree hugger, nor want to sleep while driving. I have adaptive cruise now and love it, especially when I went to change lanes and checked my right blind spot for a millisecond and before I could turn back, let alone react, it had saved me from rear ending that guy who slammed on his brakes to make a turn he almost passed. Scared the peewaddle out of me. But no accident just like those early Subaru "EyeSight" adaptive cruise commercials where it emergency stops in time. But I'm buying it as the best driving, handling, and accelerating car on the market. I've literally owned hundreds of cars, bikes, vans, early Brit roadsters, high performance trucks like my 1978 Little Red Express Truck https://www.allpar.com/trucks/dodge/lil-red-truck.html, white 69Toronado: https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1207428/1969-oldsmobile-toronado-for-sale-in-saint-louis-missouri-63074 or my Porsche 911 Targa in red https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=hb4vRE%2bw&id=334E1C804281721DCE314693A8F0676A175BD0D8&thid=OIP.hb4vRE-w-j1ncv4BJETmOwHaE8&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fdealeraccelerate-all.s3.amazonaws.com%2fcam%2fimages%2f7%2f1%2f1%2f711%2f106833c235432_hd_1973-porsche-911-targa.jpg&exph=1283&expw=1920&q=1973+porsche+911+targa&simid=608027176570129791&selectedIndex=10&qpvt=1973+porsche+911+targa&ajaxhist=0. First year with the their K-Jetronic fuel injection. And LOTS more bikes, vans, Brit Roadsters a la MG Midgets, 66 built mustang, AMC Javelin and Pacer X, BMW 525i, three Mercedes big sedans, Bunch of Dodge Ram Diesels, etc.

I'm buying it for the handling, low center of gravity, quiet smooth launch to speed. Here's the one I now have on order: 2 motor all wheel drive, long range in white https://www.tesla.com/modely/design#battery

If I spend just $6k more, my sedate long range 2 motor all wheel drive 0-60 time of 4.8seconds, drops to 3.5 seconds 0-60mph. The base models are much less. The Porsche price base model is $97,400. 

Compare the Tesla Model Y, an SUV family car, with cargo space can beat most of the base model in 0-60 but handle like a dream with five adult size seats and third row coming next year.to the 911 Targa of today:

Porsche 911 2020

Convertible, Coupe

Specifications

MSRP $97,400 - $133,400 · Loan calculator
Seating 4
Fuel economy Up to 18/24 mpg (city/highway)
Engine 3.0 L 443 HP Horizontal 6
Horsepower 379 - 443 hp
0 - 60 time 3.2 - 4.2 seconds
Top speed 179 - 191 mph

Trims

They start at $97,400.00??

If I spend a measly $6k more I get the loaded performance Y for $60,990.00 fast SUV.

Drive it then you'll know.

 

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RV, maybe you can answer something I wasn't able to find on the Tesla website.  As you know, in the South we use our air conditioning 9 months a year.  How does a/c use affect the expected mileage of your new Tesla?  Thanks.

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Not RV, but from experience on my Model 3  in Galveston area, looks like about 1 to 2 miles for every hour it is on. This is in high 80's weather. Hard to be specific, as your go pedal makes the biggest difference.

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Thanks James!

Hey guys jcussen has owned a Tesla for several years. I can tell you specifics on Tesla as an investment and why their energy division will add revenues as the car lines mature, what I expect to happen when the Chinese Gigafactory goes into full production, and the recently ground broken European Gigafactory is built.

But until I've received and owned mine, my answers about the car systems will not be from experience. Once I own it, then I can answer with more credibility on the operational aspects.

I did read about a guy in an arctic area testing the heater out by sleeping in it overnight in sub zero Temps and it worked great for 12 hours I think without making a big dent in battery charge.

My friend in Louisiana with the Model S who let me test drive it years ago said nothing about the A/C in summer pro or con. So a non-issue. My car has heated seats and rear view side mirrors that defrost, all stock, not options. Also A/C.

Edited by RV_

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18 hours ago, jcussen said:

Not RV, but from experience on my Model 3  in Galveston area, looks like about 1 to 2 miles for every hour it is on. This is in high 80's weather. Hard to be specific, as your go pedal makes the biggest difference.

I responded to you yesterday.  Don't know why my post disappeared.

Anyway, Wow, I thought it would be much higher of a drain, like 25%.  Thanks for responding.

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Chirakawa,

jcussen had your answer. I really suggest you go for a test drive. Only will you see what all the excitement is about. The sales guys love taking folks on test drives!

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I'm just trying to learn about them.  For now, an EV would not work for me.  I make too many five and six hour drives that I don't want to add a couple of hours buying fuel.  And, then there's the challenge of fueling once I arrive at my destination.

From what I've read, where EV's are becoming more commonplace, fueling stations are not keeping up.  There's an article in this month's Motortrend about traveling in an EV.  Although superchargers are becoming more common, the writer arrived at one with half a dozen superchargers, only to find half a dozen vehicles being charged and half a dozen more waiting to be charged.  I'm not prepared to wait and add hours to my trip just to buy fuel.

In the same magazine, they take an EV and an equivalent gasoline vehicle (both Hyundai Konas) on a road trip.  Although they were able to find charging stations, more than once they found the stations blocked by non-EV vehicles simply parked.  At the end of the trip, the EV consumed $140 worth of fuel and the gasoline model just $63.  Part of this was due to the driver's self admitted ignorance.  He fueled up to full at a station which charged by the minute.  He said the last 20% is slower going than the bottom 80%.

IMO, EV's will have to be less expensive, fueling stations more commonplace, and the actual ritual of fueling quicker before the typical driver will want to or be able to drive one.  Fueling at home is part of the answer, but that involves a cash outlay that many just simply don't have.  That, and many don't own their own homes.

As for me, I hope I live long enough for the owning of an EV to be practical for me,  For now, it is not.  However, I can easily see how EV's will dominate the market in 15 years.  It's just a matter of overcoming a few growing pains.

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You are right, must be in the right situation. I drove diesel pickups for years because of my work schedule, and  an ev would not have worked. I am retired now and unless out in the the RV, generally drive less than 50 miles at day. Works  fine as I charge from solar and batteries at the house. Can't really compare a Hyundai EV to a Tesla. Tesla has its own dedicated charging system that only caters only to Tesla cars and not other EV's. There is over 16000 supercharger stations across the US, that can charge your Tesla battery in 1/2 hour or less. Other EV's must rely on different commercial stations that often have high rates and low charging speeds. BTW Many Tesla's have an adapter that allow them to use a commercial station in an emergency, but only Tesla's can charge at Superchargers. Before I got my solar setup, charged off the grid,  just plugged my car's charging cord in my RV outlet at the house.

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

 

Edited by jcussen

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On 3/5/2020 at 6:46 AM, chirakawa said:

I'm just trying to learn about them.  For now, an EV would not work for me.  I make too many five and six hour drives that I don't want to add a couple of hours buying fuel.  And, then there's the challenge of fueling once I arrive at my destination.

From what I've read, where EV's are becoming more commonplace, fueling stations are not keeping up.  There's an article in this month's Motortrend about traveling in an EV.  Although superchargers are becoming more common, the writer arrived at one with half a dozen superchargers, only to find half a dozen vehicles being charged and half a dozen more waiting to be charged.  (RV comments: Not so. The writer did not wait. They did find two non electric cars taking up charger spaces, but went directly to an empty charger. If I missed it please show me where it is. They do mention 1700 electrify America individual chargers, Tesla has  1,870 Supercharger Stations with 16,585 Superchargers. ) I'm not prepared to wait and add hours to my trip just to buy fuel.

In the same magazine, they take an EV and an equivalent gasoline vehicle (both Hyundai Konas) on a road trip.  Although they were able to find charging stations, more than once they found the stations blocked by non-EV vehicles simply parked.  At the end of the trip, the EV consumed $140 worth of fuel and the gasoline model just $63.  Part of this was due to the driver's self admitted ignorance.  He fueled up to full at a station which charged by the minute.  He said the last 20% is slower going than the bottom 80%.

IMO, EV's will have to be less expensive, fueling stations more commonplace, and the actual ritual of fueling quicker before the typical driver will want to or be able to drive one.  Fueling at home is part of the answer, but that involves a cash outlay that many just simply don't have.  That, and many don't own their own homes.

As for me, I hope I live long enough for the owning of an EV to be practical for me,  For now, it is not.  However, I can easily see how EV's will dominate the market in 15 years.  It's just a matter of overcoming a few growing pains.

Short version - Chirakawa, I got quite a different impression from that Motor Trend Kona BEV and Kona Gas road test. So did the testers saying:

Excerpts:

" Before the trip I was a bit apprehensive that the Kona Electric would only make the journey with great difficulty. Truth be told, though, the experience couldn't have felt more normal.

I'd left the Kona Electric's drive mode in its default Normal setting (Eco mode nets you a couple extra bonus miles of range), I had the heater going damn near full blast to deal with the cold January air, the heated seats and steering wheel were in use, and I was charging my phone and blasting music over the stereo. In other words, I treated the electric Kona as I would any other car.

In the old days of electric vehicles, leaving Los Angeles via the 43-mile-long Grapevine was a daunting obstacle that would bleed off battery range like a sieve. Not the case here. I lost 67 miles of range on the 30-mile climb, still had 155 miles of range at the 4,144-foot summit near Gorman, and gained back 12 miles on the harrowing 13-mile plunge into the San Joaquin Valley.

After a sole half-hour stop near Bakersfield, with me snacking at an Electrify America station and Reynolds at a Taco Bell, both the Kona Electric and 1.6T arrived no worse for the wear 4 hours and 25 minutes after we'd set off. Ducking an illegally parked non-electric Mazda CX-5 and Mercedes-Benz C-Class (no respect!), we plugged into Paso Robles' sole remaining free Electrify America fast charger space, charged the Kona Electric's battery to full—in retrospect an expensive decision—and went off to brim the gas Kona's tank and grab lunch.

The return trip, this time with me in the gas Kona and Reynolds in the electric, went much the same as the first—uneventful. Although I missed the electric car's smoothness and quietness, I didn't hate getting back to L.A. about 90 minutes before Reynolds, whose 5.5-hour journey included a stop at an Electrify America station to charge and grab a late lunch—and heavier late-day traffic.

It would break with the spirit of our story, but a little planning would've gone a long way. Although there's no app available for other EVs as easy to use as Tesla's Trip Planner (because it's built into Tesla's infotainment system), free websites like ABetterRoutePlanner.com show that we could've easily saved $40 or so if we'd fast charged the Kona's battery only enough to get us to our destination and then opted for slower Level 2 charging overnight at our hotel. Hindsight and whatnot.

The Verdict?

As with all things in life, both gas and electric powertrains have their compromises. The former offers a less refined experience, is generally more expensive to run day to day around town, and pollutes more. But there are refueling stations everywhere.

The latter is generally more expensive up front, will cost more to travel with, requires some planning before embarking on a long journey, and will take longer to refuel on the way (though we predict that ever speedier fast charge times will soon enough minimize the recharge/refuel time difference).

We set out with our two Konas to answer two questions: All things being equal, is gas or electric better to drive? And can the average American household get by with an EV as its only car?

When it comes to driving these two Konas, we prefer the electric one. "Just about every minute you drive the EV is better than that minute in the gas car, except for braking to a stop," Reynolds said. The Kona Electric is silky smooth, powerful, and refined. The Kona 1.6T is good, but the Kona Electric is better.

The latter question has a more complicated answer, but we think the answer is yes, with some obvious caveats.

With more than 250 miles of range, electric cars like the Kona Electric are easier than ever to daily drive. For those lucky enough to have room for a charger in a garage or driveway, charging nightly couldn't be more painless. Some forward-thinking office complexes are stocked with chargers for their employees. Apartment dwellers might have to rely on public chargers, which in our experience is becoming far less of a hassle than it sounds. Chargers are found in places where you're spending time anyway, like malls, grocery stores, and movie theaters.

As for long-distance travel, a change in your way of thinking is necessary. Fast charging availability and capability are improving rapidly, but "fuel" stops still aren't the splash-and-dash affairs of gasoline. A little bit of planning will go a long way in saving you both time and money (prices differ at gas stations, too).

But above all, long-distance electric travel is no longer a Tesla monopoly. With expanding charging networks across the country, especially from Electrify America, the democratization of the electric car is finally here."

For those who want the real skinny, the article Chirakawa referred to is here:

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/hyundai/kona/2020/gas-vs-electric-2020-hyundai-kona-electric-vs-2020-hyundai-kona-1-6t/

Chirakawa you said you want to learn:

First the term Supercharger for BEVs is proprietary to Tesla Superchargers. No other BEV brand can use Tesla Superchargers and with good reason, they charge at a higher Amp fast charge that could toast non-Tesla battery packs. Those guys were not waiting in line on their trip anyway, see the article. Tesla has kept up with building Superchargers and long lines are the exception not the rule. In Denver an average charging costs for my friend with one, costs $9-$14.00 for a long range model 3 like mine for ~ 300 miles range from a 322 mile range rated Long range Model 3. Tesla has roughly 38,000 Superchargers.

BEVs aren't for everyone granted.

Chirakawa, I mean no offense but why not go take one for a test drive, and see for yourself? Not to consider one for yourself, but to see that Konas and Teslas are apples and oranges just like Mercedes' and Subaru AWD.

Edited by RV_

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First off, I have no doubt that driving the Tesla is a totally different experience than driving a Kona.  However, in the article they wanted to test the same vehicle in electric vesus gasoline.  Since, Tesla doesn't make a gasoline model, they used the Hyundai.  I also have no doubt I would really enjoy driving a Tesla for everyday transportation.  I'm just not going to waste my time or someone else's time test driving something I know won't work for me at this time.

Also, I was working from memory (not a good idea these days).  I conflated two back to back articles from the Motortrend magazine.  The second article is the one you linked to above and compares the two Konas.  The first article is one titled "Free-Range EV's" and gives a comparison of three different EV's (including the Tesla 3).  In the article, the author refers to the Tesla Supercharger station on Route 101 between Los Angeles and San Francisco when he describes "16 Teslas waiting to plug in at it's 14 permanent chargers".  Granted, it was on a Thanksgiving weekend, but isn't that when we want to travel?  Also, Tesla had brought in extra fueling via a Megapack battery to help out.

I have a casual friend with a Model 3.  He regularly travels to Fort Worth to visit family.  I asked him if he can go all the way there without refueling, he says no.  He stops about 2/3 of the way for an hour or so at a bakery in Corsicana and fuels up.  He likes the bakery.  He likes stopping.  I don't, and wouldn't.  He visits for a day or two and plugs into his host's household receptacle.  Then, on the return trip he stops at the bakery for an hour or so and refuels.

When I made my post here, I had no intention to denigrate or criticize Teslas or EV in general.  Like I said, I wish they would work for me.  However, I have no desire to spend 2 hours, 1 hour, or even 30 minutes fueling my vehicle on a trip.  I especially don't want to wait in line for fuel, or have to drive out of my way to a fueling station.  I've looked at the Tesla supercharging map, and it's impressive.  And, if you travel major highways, it's fairly convenient.  Some of the places I go and visit, it would be well out of my way to refuel, and in locations I would otherwise avoid.  For example, I avoid shopping malls any way I can.  If it just looks like a shopping center, I'll go well out of my way to deprive myself of the experience.  Yet, as best I could find, many of these fueling stations are in and around such congested areas.

I have every expectation that in 5 to 10 years, many of the fueling challenges will be met.  Maybe I'll be around and maybe I won't.  In the meantime, I'll drive something which gives me 500 miles of range and a 10 minute fueling stop.  Everyone is different.  I'm glad that the EV experience works for others.

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16 hours ago, chirakawa said:

He stops about 2/3 of the way for an hour or so at a bakery in Corsicana and fuels up.  He likes the bakery. 

That Tesla charging station is one that we drive by very frequently due to location. It has 8 charging stations and it has been there for several years. At first it was very rare to see anyone using one of the stations but that has slowly begun to increase and I once saw 5 chargers in use at the same time, and 2 or 3 is getting common. The folks in the bakery told me that Tesla asked to put it there because there were no charging stations between Dallas and Shreveport. For me, a hybrid or even one of the more efficient gasoline cars makes more sense at this time. 

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