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Alice

First trip is just over a week away!

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45 minutes ago, FL-JOE said:

Keep in mind that your RV does not have a residential septic tank, it has a simple black holding tank.  

You also need to keep mind that your black tank works best if all of the solids change into liquid before you empty it. The reason for keeping the black tank valve shut until half full or more is to get the rush of liquid from the tank that will carry any remaining solids from the tank and into the sewer system. If you use nothing but generous amounts of flush water the very same process as happens in the first stage of a septic system will begin to happen. Most septic systems have two tanks, the first to trap solids and allow them to liquify before moving into the second stage. Your black tank can start the septic process, if allowed to do so. We stopped using chemicals of any kind in our 4th of 12 years on the road. Today we do use a bacterial enhansing additive in hot weather occasionally but even now we usually use noting at all. 

When you buy a chemical additive, there are two types of chemicals, the old way was to convert solids to liquid chemically and the more modern is to use a chemical to enhanse the natural process. 

Edited by Kirk W

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At this point we have two trips under our belts.  I believe I posted about our maiden voyage on here. 

Both campgrounds have had electric.  Neither had sewer hook ups.  The last one didn't have water that we could remain hooked up to; we had to fill then use the water tank - a good thing since that's our next situation too. 

First time, we used the dump at out storage facility when we got home.  The campground didn't have a central dump.  Then we filled the black tank with water from our hose at home, went back and dumped again.  We used chemicals bought at the dealer - supposedly environmentally safe.  This past weekend, we totally forgot the treatment until we were about to go dump!  So didn't bother.  This park had a nice central dump site with water to use our black tank flush with.  That is an awesome addition to a trailer!  We were rather amazed at how much MORE came out of that black tank. 

I think I'm a bit of a paper hog.  Got to work on that.  We did buy septic safe Scott's, but not the special RV stuff.  I draw the line at single ply. 

The biggest problem I see coming up is that in a Friday to Sunday trip, when we were out of the park most of Saturday, we managed to empty the 45 gallon fresh tank!  We actually were trying to be conservative; navy showers, turn water off when brushing, doing dishes with a small amount of water...and still we ran out. 

We have a FIVE DAY trip coming with electric only hookups.  :(  I guess we'll be packing some type of water jugs and a portable dump tank. 

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3 hours ago, Alice said:

The biggest problem I see coming up is that in a Friday to Sunday trip, when we were out of the park most of Saturday, we managed to empty the 45 gallon fresh tank!  We actually were trying to be conservative; navy showers, turn water off when brushing, doing dishes with a small amount of water...and still we ran out. 

It sounds to me like you might have a leak in your system. Although, if you shower and wash long hair every day and you do a lot of cooking making lots of dirty dishes you could possibly be using that much water. Maybe you need to look at other lifestyle choices you are making that involve water.

Linda

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If at a park, use the park showers.  We don’t shower everyday, every other day unless we are really into something sweaty and dirty.  Dermatologists will emphasis that when you age, too many baths/showers isn’t good for you.  Use a tub in the sink for washing dishes, and then pour that down the toilet in place of fresh water.  For toilet, if yellow let it mellow, if brown send it down-hopefully using dirty dishwater.   Keep a small pail in shower to capture water when waiting for hot water to appear.    BTW, short hair is much, much easier to take care of when. RVing.

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Doing dishes with running water can use a lot of water.  When you don't have a water hookup you might want to switch to doing dished the way we did when dry tent camping.

Use three tubs

  • soapy water to wash
  • rinse water
  • rinse water with a little bleach to sanitize

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4 hours ago, Alice said:

The biggest problem I see coming up is that in a Friday to Sunday trip, when we were out of the park most of Saturday, we managed to empty the 45 gallon fresh tank!  We actually were trying to be conservative; navy showers, turn water off when brushing, doing dishes with a small amount of water...and still we ran out. 

When you shower, do you turn the water off while you soap up and wash, the turn the water back on? That is what I learned on a submarine and we both use that technique and are able to shower with about 3 gallons of water and like Barb, we do not shower every day but just do a sponge bath in a sink of water in between. 

When you flush, if there are no solids and minimal paper, a few cups of water is sufficient.

Edited by Kirk W

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5 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Keep a small pail in shower to capture water when waiting for hot water to appear.

I was able to do it even more efficiently in my conversion van. I didn't keep my 2.5 gallon water heater running. I turned it on when I wanted to shower then set a timer for 10 minutes then turned the heater off. At that time I could shower by just turning on the hot faucet--temperature never needed mixing with cold water to get it right. That was the best water and power saving trick I learned in all my RVing.

Another power saving trick was learning that blue Dawn dishwashing liquid is formulated to work in cold water. Room temperature water works just fine.

I also kept a bowl in my kitchen sink at all times. Wet my hands in the bowl, soap them outside the bowl, stick them back in the bowl to rinse, giving them a quick pass under running water if needed. I could reuse that water several times before it got too soapy to rinse. Even then I could stick dirty dishes in it to presoak before giving them a quick wash.

Another trick I used when washing myself was to wet a washcloth with about 3 oz of water then use it to scrub the critical body areas. If done daily, you don't need to shower as often. Lots of people use baby wipes to do this but I prefer just plain water on a terry cloth. In my experience, terry scrubs better than paper.

Linda

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23 hours ago, Kirk W said:

You also need to keep mind that your black tank works best if all of the solids change into liquid before you empty it. The reason for keeping the black tank valve shut until half full or more is to get the rush of liquid from the tank that will carry any remaining solids from the tank and into the sewer system. If you use nothing but generous amounts of flush water the very same process as happens in the first stage of a septic system will begin to happen. Most septic systems have two tanks, the first to trap solids and allow them to liquify before moving into the second stage. Your black tank can start the septic process, if allowed to do so. We stopped using chemicals of any kind in our 4th of 12 years on the road. Today we do use a bacterial enhansing additive in hot weather occasionally but even now we usually use noting at all. 

I think everyone knows you keep the black tank valve closed until you are ready to dump.  I was just pointing out that telling every RVer that all "septic tank" safe toilet paper is okay to use may not be good advise.  There are too many different RV systems and too many variables on how different people use their systems.

An RV black holding tank is not designed like a residential septic system.  I have experience/knowledge in three different parts of the country, mainly the Midwest.  A residential septic tank is one tank with a dividing wall that goes part way up and the solids that don't dissolve will stay on the bottom of the first chamber, everything else will eventually go out.  That is why every several years you have to have your septic tank pumped out.  

I have tore into a septic tank and observed what stays and how it works.  The only thing an RV black tank and a residential septic system have in common is poop goes into them.  Everything after that is totally different.  I don't put "septic safe" chemicals in my RV black tank just like I don't use "septic safe" toilet paper in it.

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16 hours ago, sandsys said:

It sounds to me like you might have a leak in your system. Although, if you shower and wash long hair every day and you do a lot of cooking making lots of dirty dishes you could possibly be using that much water. Maybe you need to look at other lifestyle choices you are making that involve water. 

Linda

I don't really think so.  It was very dry that Saturday and I walked around the trailer to make sure nothing was leaking from the gray/black tanks - LONG story that involves our utter lack of skill backing up.  There was not and the ground was dry. 

I think we're just water hogs. 

11 hours ago, sandsys said:

also kept a bowl in my kitchen sink at all times. Wet my hands in the bowl, soap them outside the bowl, stick them back in the bowl to rinse, giving them a quick pass under running water if needed. I could reuse that water several times before it got too soapy to rinse. Even then I could stick dirty dishes in it to presoak before giving them a quick wash.

This is a good idea.  I do think I waste a lot of water both washing hands and brushing teeth.

16 hours ago, filthy-beast said:

Doing dishes with running water can use a lot of water.  When you don't have a water hookup you might want to switch to doing dished the way we did when dry tent camping.

Use three tubs

  • soapy water to wash
  • rinse water
  • rinse water with a little bleach to sanitize

This would be standard for washing dishes when camping the way we normally do without a camper.  So yes, in fact, we may skip right to the bleach rinse if it's not too sudsy.  Dish washing is not where the water is going. 

15 hours ago, bobsallyh said:

"Fine China", paper, is your friend. If making casseroles use throw away aluminum pans.' If using a crock pot use crock pot liners. 

I definitely see us buying paper products.

14 hours ago, Kirk W said:

When you shower, do you turn the water off while you soap up and wash, the turn the water back on? That is what I learned on a submarine and we both use that technique and are able to shower with about 3 gallons of water and like Barb, we do not shower every day but just do a sponge bath in a sink of water in between. 

When you flush, if there are no solids and minimal paper, a few cups of water is sufficient.

Isn't that what a Navy shower is?  That's what we did.  Now, I like HOT showers so I did let the cold run to warm up and that may take more than I should let go.  I'll get a bucket to catch it next time.  Husband actually likes cold showers, sick little monkey, so he's not the cause of any waste there.  I do think we're probably using too much flush water - but darn it you folks keep telling me the secret is lots of water.  You can't have it both ways!  :p  LOL

Edited by Alice

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3 hours ago, Alice said:

Showers - as others stated, we didn't shower every day unless hiking.  Wiping down with a washcloth is cooling and sufficient.

Dishwashing - yes, paper plates helps.  Also, you can reuse your frypan and veggie pots during your weekend stays... just wipe them out with a damp paper towel. Wash at the last meal to store before home.  Remember to wash dishes in a dishpan and use that water for flushing the toilet.  Keep your cooking simple.  Use the BBQ.  When we boondocked for 10-14 days at a time we didn't wash dishes every day.  Of course, full-timing we probably carried more dishes & silverware than you do.  Buy extra silverware at Goodwill. We wiped them clean of food particles/grease and stored them under the sink in the dishpan.  When the pan was full we washed. Sometimes it was 2-3 days. No smells if you wipe them first.  By the way, no food particles or coffee grounds every went down the drain.

 I do think we're probably using too much flush water - but darn it you folks keep telling me the secret is lots of water.  You can't have it both ways!  😛 LOL  

Have a few inches of water in bowl.  Lay a couple sheets of TP at the bottom of bowl which makes for cleaner exit into the tank. Do you thing.  Fill bowl 1/2 for a final flush.  1/2 bowl of water is sufficient. Use that saved dishwater.  No need to add water for #1. 

Your 45 gal of fresh water should be lasting you 5-7 days as calculated by our use.  Good luck!!

 

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Here's some more of my techniques.

Toothbrushing: Put 4-6 ounces of water in a cup. Use it to wet your toothbrush. After brushing take a swig and rinse your mouth. Repeat if necessary. Swish your toothbrush in the remaining water to rinse it. Rinsing the brush does not have to be perfect.

Flushing: After dumping the black tank, put about a bowlful of water down the tank. When using the toilet add enough water that any paper floats. Flush. You do not need a bowlful of water each flush. Sometimes you might want to flush a second time after adding a bit more paper to remove any leftover streaks.

Linda

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8 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

An RV black holding tank is not designed like a residential septic system.

For the past 8 years I was involved in management of a community with septic systems for 65 lots and have been working with professions in the field for that entire time, with my maintenance assistant being septic system design engineer, so I do know just a tiny bit about them. I have also owned self-contained RVs with black tanks since 1984 and we spent nearly 12 years living in one. 

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22 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

For the past 8 years I was involved in management of a community with septic systems for 65 lots and have been working with professions in the field for that entire time, with my maintenance assistant being septic system design engineer, so I do know just a tiny bit about them. I have also owned self-contained RVs with black tanks since 1984 and we spent nearly 12 years living in one. 

Any tank that collects wet human waste will begin to turn the waste to liquid unless something stops it.  We don't use bleach or other chemicals to kill the bacterial action that liquifies the waste.  This action is the same in a RV black tank  or septic tank unless something blocks it.  Modern septic tanks are designed to maximize this process by holding floating and sinking matter in the tank to give this action more time and to hold back the small amount of solids that do not liquify.   This is necessary to keep the leach field from clogging.  Like Kirk and many others we treat our RV black tanks much the same as our septic tanks and use septic approved tissue.  This helps to keep the black tank from clogging. Most of the time our black tank is emptied into our septic tanks to finish the process and I wouldn't want anything to disrupt it.

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17 hours ago, Kirk W said:

For the past 8 years I was involved in management of a community with septic systems for 65 lots and have been working with professions in the field for that entire time, with my maintenance assistant being septic system design engineer, so I do know just a tiny bit about them. I have also owned self-contained RVs with black tanks since 1984 and we spent nearly 12 years living in one. 

Did that same community have blacktop roads that your were "involved in the management" of?  If so does that make you an automatic expert paving contractor?  Did the community have an inground pool?  So you must be an expert on everything involved with the construction and maintenance of such pools.

I've owned several properties that had septic tanks since 1974.  Not that many years ago I had the distasteful experience of actually opening a residential septic tank completely up and recovering human remains.  I know first hand what stays in them and what goes out my friend.

We can continue to take turns peeing on the same tree all day long Kirk.  I will stand by my original statement that got you fired up, RV black tanks are not residential septic tanks.  That is like saying it is okay to add Diesel Kleen to my car's gas tank, what the heck they are both just motors.

When a newbie uses a thick "septic safe" toilet paper and doesn't get enough water in their black tank they will eventually have issues.  Septic tank toilet paper can stay in a residential septic tank for a long time before it needs to dissolve.  That is not the case with RV black holding tanks that have a very limited capacity and have to emptied frequently.  

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16 hours ago, Randyretired said:

Any tank that collects wet human waste will begin to turn the waste to liquid unless something stops it.  We don't use bleach or other chemicals to kill the bacterial action that liquifies the waste.  This action is the same in a RV black tank  or septic tank unless something blocks it.  Modern septic tanks are designed to maximize this process by holding floating and sinking matter in the tank to give this action more time and to hold back the small amount of solids that do not liquify.   This is necessary to keep the leach field from clogging.  Like Kirk and many others we treat our RV black tanks much the same as our septic tanks and use septic approved tissue.  This helps to keep the black tank from clogging. Most of the time our black tank is emptied into our septic tanks to finish the process and I wouldn't want anything to disrupt it.

You are correct, a RV black tank and a residential septic tank both collect human waste and that waste will begin to break down in both systems, including the toilet paper.  The difference being an RV black tank must be emptied, by gravity, frequently long before "septic safe" toilet paper is completely dissolved.  Whereas, a residential septic tank can break down most material prior to it going to the leach field(s).  That is why there are different size septic tanks matched to the size of the residences, so they don't overfill and have time for this action to take place.

Every RV can be a little different.  Obviously there are a lot of folks getting by using a heavier septic safe paper.  We happen to have 2 macerating Dometic toilets in our current rig so we could probably use paper towels if we wanted to, everything that goes into my black tank is ground up anyway so I know my tank will always drain easily and freely.  

A newbie just has to remember if using a heavier paper intended for residential use that they will need to add a lot more water to their flushes.  In addition they should expect to see undissolved toilet paper flowing through their stinky-slinky and be prepared for any issues that could cause.

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Easy test is to take a couple of sheets of the TP, put in a jar with a tight lid, shake and see how long it takes for the TP to start disintegrating.   

Since we only dump when a minimum of 1/2 full black tank (ours is an 80 gallon black tank) we often go 10-12 days and can go 16 days if we are really careful.  Yes, the TP will be disintegrating.

Tissue going down the hose into the septic/sewer system at the park is not going to be a problem, nor will any TP that might stick to the side of the tank (last in TP for example) if one remembers to immediately put 3 gallons or so of water in and then continue to use it.  And if using a backwash sprayer up into the tank, that will pretty will take care of everything.   Again the key is keeping the drain valve closed until at least 1/2 full before dumping.   Add more water if you need to dump to get it to that level.

 

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20 hours ago, sandsys said:

Toothbrushing: Put 4-6 ounces of water in a cup. Use it to wet your toothbrush. After brushing take a swig and rinse your mouth. Repeat if necessary. Swish your toothbrush in the remaining water to rinse it. Rinsing the brush does not have to be perfect.

I do have a thing about toothbrushing.  What you describe is how we brush when tent camping.  I hate it.  I'm okay to turn water off when doing the actual brushing, but I HAVE to rinse that toothbrush pretty good, in running water.  I'll work on it, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to waste a little there.

20 hours ago, sandsys said:

Flushing: After dumping the black tank, put about a bowlful of water down the tank. When using the toilet add enough water that any paper floats. Flush. You do not need a bowlful of water each flush. Sometimes you might want to flush a second time after adding a bit more paper to remove any leftover streaks.

 

1 hour ago, FL-JOE said:

A newbie just has to remember if using a heavier paper intended for residential use that they will need to add a lot more water to their flushes.  In addition they should expect to see undissolved toilet paper flowing through their stinky-slinky and be prepared for any issues that could cause.

 

36 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

Tissue going down the hose into the septic/sewer system at the park is not going to be a problem, nor will any TP that might stick to the side of the tank (last in TP for example) if one remembers to immediately put 3 gallons or so of water in and then continue to use it.  And if using a backwash sprayer up into the tank, that will pretty will take care of everything.   Again the key is keeping the drain valve closed until at least 1/2 full before dumping.   Add more water if you need to dump to get it to that level.

All 3 of these are quoted to show the difference in opinions I keep getting!  Now, the 1/3 to 1/2 full black tank before dumping I get.  But the amount of water to use keeps varying.  Sandsys says to start with 1 bowl full.  Barbaraok says 3 gallons or so.  Other places I've been told 5 gallons to start with.  If we're dumping after a weekend...there's not going to be much time to dissolve anything, including paper.  When we dumped this weekend, there was certainly undissolved paper we saw in the clear elbow.  When we used the black tank flush (we have the kind built into the trailer, not the kind built into the hose) - there was a LOT more undissolved paper than in just the dump. 

Just as a point of interest - it's my understanding that you leave the black tank valve OPEN when you are running the black tank flush, yes?  You run it for several minutes and it's supposed to kind of spray down the inside of the tank, like a sprinkler head, and knock down and out what's left over?  Do I have that right?

Now here's a better question.  Say we buy the portable dump tank...we can't use the flush on the black tank on the trailer until the final dump at the end of the stay...is that a bad thing? 

Edited by Alice

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1 hour ago, FL-JOE said:

You are correct, a RV black tank and a residential septic tank both collect human waste and that waste will begin to break down in both systems, including the toilet paper.  The difference being an RV black tank must be emptied, by gravity, frequently long before "septic safe" toilet paper is completely dissolved.  Whereas, a residential septic tank can break down most material prior to it going to the leach field(s).  That is why there are different size septic tanks matched to the size of the residences, so they don't overfill and have time for this action to take place.

Every RV can be a little different.  Obviously there are a lot of folks getting by using a heavier septic safe paper.  We happen to have 2 macerating Dometic toilets in our current rig so we could probably use paper towels if we wanted to, everything that goes into my black tank is ground up anyway so I know my tank will always drain easily and freely.  

A newbie just has to remember if using a heavier paper intended for residential use that they will need to add a lot more water to their flushes.  In addition they should expect to see undissolved toilet paper flowing through their stinky-slinky and be prepared for any issues that could cause.

I have seen the black tank material we dump and I rarely see anything that looks like paper.  In fact it is nearly all liquid.  As Barbaraok stated above you can test it for yourself.  With the additional bacteria from human waste it will likely disintegrate even faster.

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14 minutes ago, Alice said:

All 3 of these are quoted to show the difference in opinions I keep getting!  Now, the 1/3 to 1/2 full black tank before dumping I get.  But the amount of water to use keeps varying.  Sandsys says to start with 1 bowl full.  Barbaraok says 3 gallons or so.  Other places I've been told 5 gallons to start with.  If we're dumping after a weekend...there's not going to be much time to dissolve anything, including paper.  When we dumped this weekend, there was certainly undissolved paper we saw in the clear elbow.  When we used the black tank flush (we have the kind built into the trailer, not the kind built into the hose) - there was a LOT more undissolved paper than in just the dump. 

Just as a point of interest - it's my understanding that you leave the black tank valve OPEN when you are running the black tank flush, yes?  You run it for several minutes and it's supposed to kind of spray down the inside of the tank, like a sprinkler head, and knock down and out what's left over?  Do I have that right?

Now here's a better question.  Say we buy the portable dump tank...we can't use the flush on the black tank on the trailer until the final dump at the end of the stay...is that a bad thing? 

There is nothing magic about adding a specific amount of water to the tank after dumping.  A little water the keep the valve wet is really all you need.  I'd say that a bowl full is plenty. We are fulltimers, and to add to your confusion we add no water at all.  Water will be added soon enough!!  There is really no danger of the inside of the tank drying out completely in the few hours before the next "addition". 

I use my flush system to get the tank up to 3/4 full if it isn't already there, and then dump.  I'll often close the valve and run the flush until the tank is 3/4 full again, and then dump again. There is no right or wrong answer to any of this. 

And not being able to use the flush until the final dump is no issue at all.  We didn't have a flush system on our first two trailers and we survived just fine.  The black water system on a RV is pretty forgiving, as long as you don't live in it with the valve open and dump with at least a 1/2 full tank. Everything beyond that is just personal preference and frankly not all that important...

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20 minutes ago, mptjelgin said:

We are fulltimers, and to add to your confusion we add no water at all.  Water will be added soon enough!!  There is really no danger of the inside of the tank drying out completely in the few hours before the next "addition". 

Okay.  I give up.  What of the dreaded "poop mountain" that supposedly happens if you don't start out with water in your black tank. 

I mean, I've literally now been told I need to start with anywhere from 5 gallons to ZERO water in the black tank.

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The size of the black tank also should be considered.  I have seen RV's with 10 gallon black tanks.  With that size tank you darn sure would not want to start with 5 gallons.  Our tank is 70 gallons and some are 100 gallons or more.  To add only a gallon to 100 gallons, why bother.  On one of our 5th wheels the bath sink was plumbed to the black tank.  Extra water was built in.  I add about 3 to 5 gallons in our tank and for what it is worth we haven't had a problem.  We use septic safe tissue and have since our first 5th wheel in 1987.  Our tank has a spray, which is nice but not mandatory.   Some of our rigs didn't have it.  For those that advocate RV paper, you can count me out.  Tried it once and only once.

Edited by Randyretired

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3 minutes ago, Alice said:

Okay.  I give up.  What of the dreaded "poop mountain" that supposedly happens if you don't start out with water in your black tank. 

I mean, I've literally now been told I need to start with anywhere from 5 gallons to ZERO water in the black tank.

In normal usage there is plenty of water being added with the solids. The "poop mountain" occurs when the black water valve is left open, draining the liquids but leaving the solids behind over a period of time. It doesn't form in a day or even a week. 

Relax about all of this. You really can't go wrong by doing the important thing of keeping the valve closed and not dumping until you're 1/2 to 2/3 full.  

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32 minutes ago, mptjelgin said:

Relax about all of this. You really can't go wrong by doing the important thing of keeping the valve closed and not dumping until you're 1/2 to 2/3 full.  

Well, there will be little chance of that, since we have yet to have a place with full hookups!  We keep having to take electric only sites, which is apparently not unusual in state parks.

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My black tank was 20 gallons. Barbara's is 80 gallons. They take different amounts of water to prime them. 

Also, people's digestive systems work differently. The porosity of the excrement is a factor. Since my IBS means I have frequent diarrhea I don't need to add as much water as some people do to dissolve solids thus I don't need a full bowl of water with every flush. All of this means whatever you do will be right for you as long as you don't leave the black valve open when not dumping and you do add plenty of water before dumping if you've only been out a weekend and won't be using the RV again for awhile.

BTW, none of our rigs ever had a black tank rinsing system. When fulltiming I'm not convinced you need one. If part timing it would probably be good to give the tanks a good flush before putting the rig in storage but that can be done just by refilling the tank with fresh water and dumping again especially if you drive a bit in between dumps so the water sloshes around in the tank.

Linda

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