securing the propane tanks

[Barbaraok]

2 hours ago, Big5er said:

He is not a delivery truck. The US DOT regulations do not apply to him. As an RV he is exempt from the fed regs.

No an RV is not exempt from Federal Regs.  Propane in transportation must be open to the atmosphere (not in closed bay where fumes could accumulate) and the values must be accessible to fire departments.  All state fire Marshalls also adopted NFPA recommendations 

[Ray,IN]

22 minutes ago, Barbaraok said:

No an RV is not exempt from Federal Regs.  Propane in transportation must be open to the atmosphere (not in closed bay where fumes could accumulate) and the values must be accessible to fire departments.  All state fire Marshalls also adopted NFPA recommendations 

You are right of course.  I was trying to say RV's are not subject to commercial USDOT regulations as he mentioned a delivery truck.

[Dutch_12078]

55 minutes ago, Big5er said:

Dutch quoted NFPA regs. I don't think he is making that up, so I will take his reference as being where he said it is. So again, please show me this regulation and an associated fine schedule. Just saying it is there means nothing. Let's find it so we can all read it.

Anyone that's interested can look it up for themselves:

https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=1192

[Lance A Lott]

Back in the early 90s I was a Deputy Sheriff and our cruisers were propane powered. The tanks were locked in the trunk, my partner was the assistant fire cheif his only complaint was about all the junck we had to move to get to the fill valve.

Does a dot law apply to a parked vehicle that is not on a public highway?

[Big5er]

1 hour ago, Barbaraok said:

No an RV is not exempt from Federal Regs.  Propane in transportation must be open to the atmosphere (not in closed bay where fumes could accumulate) and the values must be accessible to fire departments.  All state fire Marshalls also adopted NFPA recommendations 

And I specifically said the US DOT regulations. Please stick with the thread. And I will ask you the same thing I asked others..SHOW ME this regulation that says "Propane in transportation must be open to the atmosphere (not in closed bay where fumes could accumulate) and the values must be accessible to fire departments". 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Big5er

[Big5er]

7 minutes ago, Lance A Lott said:

Does a dot law apply to a parked vehicle that is not on a public highway?

LMAO, you kinda make a valid point Lance.  Kinda makes Barbara's "Propane in transportation" post moot since it doesn't apply at all to the OP. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Big5er

[Ray,IN]

On 7/14/2019 at 4:11 PM, packnrat said:

well after all these years, someone is messing around with my rv. 

i know can only do so much.  but what are the laws for securing the propane tanks( as written, applied). as to chaining, locking them in?

I think this item will fit your need: https://www.amazon.com/RVLOCKBOX-Propane-Tank-Bracket-Thread/dp/B07FT8FVXP/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=propane+tank+lock+rv&qid=1563246326&s=gateway&sr=8-1

 

[FL-JOE]

1 hour ago, Lance A Lott said:

Back in the early 90s I was a Deputy Sheriff and our cruisers were propane powered. The tanks were locked in the trunk, my partner was the assistant fire cheif his only complaint was about all the junck we had to move to get to the fill valve.

Does a dot law apply to a parked vehicle that is not on a public highway?

Back in the early 70's my first cop job at a small department we drove squads that were propane powered.  Huge tank in the trunk.  PIA and pretty dangerous IMHO.  We had to unlock the trunk to fill the tank each shift.

[packnrat]

well all i know is propane is heaver than the air, so it floats down. and there is NO floor just a steel beam to hold the tanks in place. so venting is not a problem. and the door and compartment are not "air sealed" . 

as to "securing" things, a crow bar will easily open any outside hatch on any rv made. heck the door is easy to just rip apart, so access for a fireman is nothing. and if the tanks are on fire i doubt even he will try to get in there, as the fire will very quickly burn out to him. might already be out of the coach body by the time the truck gets to my place (and i do live close to a fire station).

a simple locking latch (heck the fireman might even have a key on him) on the compartment door. a cable with lock going through the tank handles, maybe a added bar to impead the removal of the tanks.  and that bolt thread locking gizmo.

2-4 portable rv tanks do not fall under the DOT regs as a rv is not a commercial (at least mine is not) endever,  the "reportable" amounts have not been reached. but i have seen the forest cops ticket people for having a "unsecured" bbq tank in the back of a pick-up.

my only thinking here is so the bums and meth heads can not easily get to my property.

i would love to park in my back yard. lots of room back there. (1/4 acre), who here is willing to come to my place with the correct construction equipment and dig out a place for the rv? i can buy you lunch. as i can not afford the true cost of this.

[chirakawa]

In the old days, firefighters were taught that one of the first things to do if they encounter an RV fire or RV crash is shut off the propane tank valves.  The danger was that one of the propane lines might become damaged and propane would spew out and be a hazard.

Nowadays, with the new type valves, if a line breach occurs, the valve will immediately shut off the flow.  So, I'm not so sure it's as important to have access to the valves as it once was.  I don't know what the current law is on it.

I have seen video of a propane tank BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion).  It's impressive and much more of a statement than a gasoline or diesel fire.  However, that situation is very unlikely in an RV.

[Sehc]

I my old days we were taught to spray water and keep the bottle/tank cool. Everybody has a favorite best practices code. No one has an actual law or ordinance?

[packnrat]

not a firefighter. but any here that can say how fast a small rv (mine is a 25 footer) goes up. and what the number one cause of a fire is?

i tend to believe it is not the propane supply.

but this is getting off track a bit. the question was about securing said tanks from theft.

so far No laws stating how to or not how to,  lock them up have been listed.

Edited July 16, 2019 by packnrat

[Dutch_12078]

There are regulations related to maintaining access to the tank or cylinder valves, but I know of none that apply to securing portable cylinders against theft.

[richfaa]

Again so many experts .

[Dutch_12078]

29 minutes ago, richfaa said:

Again so many experts .

Are you aware of any laws that don't allow securing LP cylinders against theft? I've done considerable research on the subject, and haven't found any. Free access to the tank or cylinder valves, however, is well documented.

[Sehc]

Free access to the valves on a RV is not required by an actual government law. All I see are agencies that sell recommendations and then certify the manufactures that pay. It is a different story with residential and commercial property codes. If I'm wrong please set me right by linking an actual legal document. If someone was messing with my propane tanks I would lock them tight.

[palmeris]

17 hours ago, Big5er said:

And I would agree with you there....so in regards to this thread, who will enforce the NFPA regs in an area that is serviced by oh, say a volunteer FD or a small municipal FD? Does anyone think the State Fire Marshall is trolling around RV parks looking for locked compartments? 

...enforcement by the ahj for the municipality the vehicle is currently located in...wouldn't be the state's fire marshal responsibility...would think the annual fire and life safety inspection for the campgrounds business license renewals would be about the only time this would have the potential to be discovered as a code violation and even then the inspector may not look at guest specific systems, just those that pertain to businesses operations...

[richfaa]

Remember the signs  around the country that tell us to turn off our propane tanks when going through a tunnel.They tell us to turn them off not to remove them. Why do they tell us to turn them off ??? Why do some recommend that we turn off propane tanks when fueling or turn them off when travelling??? We saw a RV fire at our Winter campground a few years ago the RV was completely destroyed but the full propane tanks were not affected.??? What is the actual reason for no locks on the propane doors??? We note that the huge propane tanks at Flying J and the Campground we wintered it were    bolted to the ground  you know like chained to the RV frame. 

https://www.propane101.com/explodingpropanetanks.htm

 

Hint   NFPA 1192

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by richfaa

[Lou Schneider]

50 minutes ago, richfaa said:

Remember the signs  around the country that tell us to turn off our propane tanks when going through a tunnel.They tell us to turn them off not to remove them. Why do they tell us to turn them off ???

You'll find those signs mostly in the Eastern part of the country.  Tunnels there usually go under harbors and the like, so their ends are higher than the middle.  Escaping propane, being heavier than air, will congregate at the low point creating a hazard.

In the west, tunnels tend to go through mountains, not under harbors.  Mountain tunnels have at least one end lower than the middle for drainage.  You don't see as many "turn off propane" signs because any leakage will naturally drain out the end of the tunnel and dissipate.

[kb0zke]

As I scanned through this thread, it seems to me that the OP is more concerned about theft of propane tanks than anything else.

A stout chain and padlock will deter the honest people, but someone with a bolt cutters can defeat the lock and chain. Add more chains and padlocks and now you have made it too difficult for you to take the empty tank out and get it filled and the thief still has his bolt cutters. All he has to do is cut a few more places. You could chain a dog to the hitch, but then the neighbors (or the campground) would complain if the dog barked. Again, the thief just has to bring something to neutralize the dog and the bolt cutters.

I guess the short answer is that there really isn't any way to deter a determined thief other than an armed guard. Probably not worth the expense.

It sounds like the OP has a trailer of some sort at home, and home is in a neighborhood that sees a fair amount of theft. Many people keep their propane grills in the garage. Without getting into the argument of how safe that is, it might be that removing the tank and storing them somewhere out of sight may be a solution. In fact, if the tanks in question are the small, grill size ones, maybe the solution might be to arrange with a local propane seller to keep the tanks there when not in use. Part of the agreement might be to have the tanks full when called for (advance notice required). Don't know if a propane seller would go with such a deal, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

[Dutch_12078]

8 hours ago, Sehc said:

Free access to the valves on a RV is not required by an actual government law. All I see are agencies that sell recommendations and then certify the manufactures that pay. It is a different story with residential and commercial property codes. If I'm wrong please set me right by linking an actual legal document. If someone was messing with my propane tanks I would lock them tight.

Most states and municipalities have adopted NFPA articles 58 (LP Gas Code), 72 (National Electrical Code), 1192 (Standard on Recreational Vehicles) , and others as their building and fire codes or include them by reference. So the bottom line is that many NFPA articles are considered laws because the responsible Federal agencies, state governments, and local governments say so. 

[sandsys]

2 hours ago, kb0zke said:

it might be that removing the tank and storing them somewhere out of sight may be a solution. 

I had a sudden vision of one simply sitting beside a garage inside a garbage can with no lid on it. Who would think to look there?

Linda

[Barbaraok]

Ferries in Washington State require propane turned off before they load you and they check each unit.  

Almost every local/county/state governmental units dealing with fire/safety, etc. have adopted NFPA regulations by reference, often then including extra regulations to address local concern.  For example, you can not fill propane tanks (either DOT or ASME) in RV parks in Mesa.  You can arrange for delivery of tanks and use ‘extend-a-stay’ adaptors for motorhome, or take DOT tanks to filling station throughout the area.

As was pointed out, you can not stopped someone if they are hell bent to steal from you.  If staying long term having a LARGE tank installed would reduce simple theft.   

[Ray,IN]

I've been searching for regulations I may freely copy N paste to no avail. I did however find this that further complicates the  open access to LP cylinder valves discussion: https://www.amazon.com/propane-tank-valve-lock/s?k=propane+tank+valve+lock

Of course that does not mean those devices are legal, just that they are available.

That is from: https://www.laigroup.com/propane-tank-locks-security-valve-locks.php  for unused cylinders.

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Ray,IN

[Barbaraok]

Ray,

Those are for  unused cylinders. which means the valves are closed and the unit is not in use.  That has to do with storage, not with cylinders CONNECTED to a rig.