AC Issues have me baffles

[jc2]

 Last August 2018, we traded our 2004 Newmar DS Diesel Pusher for a 2010 Newmar Dutch Aire DP.  In the following approximate time frame, 8/10/18-10/15/18, we travelled to no less than 8+- cgs, private & state but mainly private and encountered approx. "26" instances where ac power would shutdown for anywhere from 30 seconds-2 minutes.  99% of the time, the Progressive Dynamic hardwired system would show error message of E4, which is Line 1-Low Voltage.  About the third week of Sept, I replaced the Progressive Dynamic EMS & the Transfer with new and noticed the 50A plug showed burn marks on one of the prongs and was loose where it went into the rubber plug itself.  Headed towards Tx on about 10/15/19 and stopped at the dealer where purchased for a fridge exchange to a Samsung and had them replace the plug.  The shutdowns seemed to stop after the plug was replaced with only error messages showing up after as described.  Arrived in southern Tx for the winter and only had (2) issues from 10/20/18-4/26/19.  The first was error code E2-Open ground and the second was the E4- low voltage-L2.  Left and headed back north on approx. 4/27/19 and stopped at 4-5 CG's with no issues until 6/22/19 at which time we had (1) E4 error message.  On 6/25/17, we had an incident of no power when we plugged in and ran generator for 2 hrs before trying the pedestal again.  This time we had power.  Took to an rv shop and had it checked and of course every thing ran fine. The tech talked with Progressives techs and every thing check ok when he ran there tests.  On 6/30/19, no power when plugged in at a KOA in Newton, Ia,  Tried another newer pedestal (2) hrs later and the power came on in the coach.   In Shipshewana, Ind from 7/1/19-7/8/19 and had one incident where the 50A pedestal breaker tripped when I plugged a small vac into the 20A pluin of the pedestal.  Reset and everything ran ok.  We are at a cg n Holland, Michigan at this time and have had (1) E4 message only. 

      Any rv electronic savvy people have any idea(s) what might be causing this fiasco?

[Barbaraok]

Notice that you don’t mention what your meter was reading each time when you unplugged and check the power at the pedestal?  You did that' right?   Why do you assume the power at the pedestal is always ok.  Sounds like your system is doing what it should.

[Ray,IN]

I replied to your post on FMCA forums.

Barbaraok, he has the same problems at multiple CG's. The melted 50A plug is a clue to further issues.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Ray,IN

[Barbaraok]

So there was charring on the plug that was inserted into the pedestal and everyone thinks that's ok?   I'm missing something here.   And getting a fault code (and short cutout) doesn't seem all that unusual, considering that LOTS of different things that can affect power flow in a park and sometimes the units are REALLY sensitive.  He doesn't say how many things he had going - but the fact that he tripped a pedestal with a 20 amp plug into it in addition to the coach would seem to indicate a problem with pedestal, not coach, wouldn't it?  

Edited July 11, 2019 by Barbaraok
Correcting the iPad's autocorrection!

[FL-JOE]

Having 30+ issues spread out at numerous campgrounds certainly indicates there is a problem with your hardwired Progressive system.  Since you have no "skin in the game" so to speak, or in other words you did not pay to have it initially installed, why not just have it removed and go with a portable plug-in Progressive unit?  

Do you have any paperwork for when it was installed?  Do you have any information on who installed the Progressive system initially?  Dealer or coach owner?

[Lou Schneider]

One more thing ... do you have two air conditioners?  If so, it's best to have one on each side of the 50 amp service to balance the load when they're on.

If they're both on one leg, it will work in theory but this increases the current on both that hot lead and on the neutral.

The fix is to open the breaker box and move the second AC's circuit breaker to the other side.

If you have a whole house inverter, sometimes installers save a buck by using one side of the circuit breaker panel for the circuits powered by the inverter instead of installing a subpanel for the inverter.  This means all of the large loads have to be moved to the other side of the panel, putting them all on a single leg.

If this is the case, you'll have to install a subpanel on the output of the inverter and move the inverter circuits there.  This will free up both sides of the main panel so you can balance the large loads between both legs.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Lou Schneider

[jc2]

18 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Notice that you don’t mention what your meter was reading each time when you unplugged and check the power at the pedestal?  You did that' right?   Why do you assume the power at the pedestal is always ok.  Sounds like your system is doing what it should.

In my 25+ yrs of rving, I have never assumed anything as Murphy's Law will bite u every time.  Since the different incidences started last August/Sept-2018 in several cg's, I had the park hosts check the incoming power and it was running 118-120v on each leg.  On several occasions, I checked with several people on both sides to see if they had been having problems and each said no.  None of these folks at the time were running any type of ems/surge protection on their rv's.  This is the first rv that we have had with the hardwired ems/surge protection system as we used a portable system with our previous ones.  As I stated in the first part of my original post, the first several months  consisted of the rv losing power and giving an error message most of the time.  When I discovered a burnt section on one of the 50a prongs and had the plug replaced, the losing power part pretty much stopped with on the error messages showing up on the small LED screen of the Progressive Dynamics EMS/Surge system.  There was also a period of time between Oct 2018 and the latter part of April 2019, when I only had (2) error messages while parked in (1) spot for about 6 months.  The errors messages began again roughly two months later; 6/22/2019 after we had gone back to Missouri.

 

[jc2]

7 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

Having 30+ issues spread out at numerous campgrounds certainly indicates there is a problem with your hardwired Progressive system.  Since you have no "skin in the game" so to speak, or in other words you did not pay to have it initially installed, why not just have it removed and go with a portable plug-in Progressive unit?  

Do you have any paperwork for when it was installed?  Do you have any information on who installed the Progressive system initially?  Dealer or coach owner?

I had a new Progressive Dynamic EMS/Surge protection box and Transfer switch put in the last week of Sept 2018 by a friend of mine who was a tech with a Cummins Onan service center for 10+ yrs.  Several weeks ago, he looked at everything again and even spent some time on the phone with a tech at Progressive Dynamics.  They had him run a number of tests and of course everything worked fine. 

[jc2]

5 hours ago, Lou Schneider said:

One more thing ... do you have two air conditioners?  If so, it's best to have one on each side of the 50 amp service to balance the load when they're on.

If they're both on one leg, it will work in theory but this increases the current on both that hot lead and on the neutral.

The fix is to open the breaker box and move the second AC's circuit breaker to the other side.

If you have a whole house inverter, sometimes installers save a buck by using one side of the circuit breaker panel for the circuits powered by the inverter instead of installing a subpanel for the inverter.  This means all of the large loads have to be moved to the other side of the panel, putting them all on a single leg.

If this is the case, you'll have to install a subpanel on the output of the inverter and move the inverter circuits there.  This will free up both sides of the main panel so you can balance the large loads between both legs.

Our unit has (3) 15K hps of which 1&2 are on L1 and the 3rd is on L2.  I watch the amp load pretty close and am well aware that things can add up.  It appears that Newmar pretty much split things up pretty good between L1 & L2. 

[Barbaraok]

Just because people on each side WITHOUT surge protection don’t see anything wrong, shouldn’t be an assurance that nothing is wrong.  And problems can be fleeting and then go away and not reappear.  Still not sure how a burnt prong on your power cord means the EMS is malfunctioning?  

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

A business partner currently sitting in a park in Chattanooga is experiencing a low voltage issue.  Voltage is 100-103, so he bought a Hughes Autoformer to boost his voltage.  People on either side of him are complaining that their AC's are short cycling and they're blowing their main breakers inside.  

Low Voltage means the unit is going try to pull more amps to compensate, amps will create more heat then the cord-plug prongs can handle.

[Barbaraok]

And that’s an example of park power problem.  OP didn’t say he had an autoformer. 

[docj]

13 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

 And problems can be fleeting and then go away and not reappear.  Still not sure how a burnt prong on your power cord means the EMS is malfunctioning?

The Progressive's remote readout displays both the current error code and  the previous code.  If there is an intermittent it will show as the previous code even if there are no codes currently being displayed.  This feature is unique to Progressive and is invaluable for diagnosing intermittents. 

I know because we had one which manifested itself exactly as the OP first described.  The power would turn off seemingly at random and then would turn back on.  The Surgeguard I had at the time didn't show any faults so I assumed that it was bad and replaced it with a Progressive which demonstrated the same behavior but which was capable of showing the "previous error" which in my case was a high voltage intermittent being caused by loose connections in the pedestal.

I'm not saying that the OP has the same exact problem I did, but the repeated behavior is evidence that the Progressive device is sensing a problem that then resolves istself so that power can be restored.  Since it happens at multiple pedestals in different parks I would presume that the problem is within the MH and could relate to the "burned" plug which has already been discussed.

I suggest that the OP start paying attention to the "previous error" display on his Progressive in order to resolve this problem.

[jc2]

11 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

And that’s an example of park power problem.  OP didn’t say he had an autoformer. 

No I do not have an autoformer.  As I understand it, their purpose is to boost ac power to an acceptable level when unacceptable levels are detected.  I personally believe there is something within my electrical system that is causing this issue and am intent on finding what it is, period. 

[jc2]

51 minutes ago, docj said:

The Progressive's remote readout displays both the current error code and  the previous code.  If there is an intermittent it will show as the previous code even if there are no codes currently being displayed.  This feature is unique to Progressive and is invaluable for diagnosing intermittents. 

I know because we had one which manifested itself exactly as the OP first described.  The power would turn off seemingly at random and then would turn back on.  The Surgeguard I had at the time didn't show any faults so I assumed that it was bad and replaced it with a Progressive which demonstrated the same behavior but which was capable of showing the "previous error" which in my case was a high voltage intermittent being caused by loose connections in the pedestal.

I'm not saying that the OP has the same exact problem I did, but the repeated behavior is evidence that the Progressive device is sensing a problem that then resolves istself so that power can be restored.  Since it happens at multiple pedestals in different parks I would presume that the problem is within the MH and could relate to the "burned" plug which has already been discussed.

I suggest that the OP start paying attention to the "previous error" display on his Progressive in order to resolve this problem.

I read your comments with interest on the use of a portable Surgeguard as I originally use one at the pedestal(s) when we first got our rv last August-2018.  I do not remember any error codes being shown by it even though the Progressive Dynamics EMS display did.  I will be planning to try and check, "again" all ac connections for tightness, including the main breaker panel inside.

Edited July 12, 2019 by jc2

[Barbaraok]

Well you sure have people scratching their heads - - I think we will all be interested in what it turns out to be.    I have a feeling maybe you have encountered some flaky power in different parks plus something else going on in your coach.  A great puzzle for us, probably very frustrating for you.  

[jc2]

Update.  We left the CG in Holland,  Michigan at 11a this morning.  Pryor to turning off the pedestal 50a breaker, I reached in and started to pull out about (3) ft more of power cord from the reel.  Heard the transfer switch click  and  lost ac power to the coach.  Quit pulling on the cord and the ac kicked back on at 20 seconds as it should.  Me thinks that something(wire connections/brushes/contacts) in the cord reel itself  might be the culprit.  We are now at a cg close to Mackinac Island for 4 days or so.  Plugged  in with no problems.  I will check the cord reel for loose connections or try and find a mobile rv tech if one is available here.  I know my limitations when it comes to electricity.  I remember reading a discussion on another forum(?) about cord reels causing electical issues.  Now to find which forum.

Edited July 13, 2019 by jc2

[Barbaraok]

Aw, cord on a reel.  Yes, lots of reports of problems with that.  Trip to factory?

[Ray,IN]

Your update on the other forum says you found the cord reel is defective, bought a new one yet?

[jc2]

10 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

Your update on the other forum says you found the cord reel is defective, bought a new one yet?

No sir, not at this time.  We are currently in the UP of Michigan and will not be in the Kansas City area for a couple of weeks to have it replaced.  There are no mobile techs or dealers where we are so that is not helpful as I do not want a fly-by-night person working on the rv.   did manage to find several previous posts on Irv2 in addition to what u also found indicating that several people have dad issues with certain brands of cord reels causing electrical issues similar to mine.  I also want to check the wire connections within the reel call Newmar this week and find out what the original build sheet shows for reel brand name.  We have a Shoreline brand but I have also seen where the Glendining Power Cord reel brand was also used in the 2010 Newmar Dutch Aire.  Be interesting to see if the original owner might have had to replace the reel with another while he owned it. 

[Wrknrvr]

 I had a bad cord reel last year. 

 

 I would strongly suggest to eliminate the reel a sap. It may do more harm from disconnecting and connecting often. It just needs to the wiring connected directly.

  I am a mobile Rv tech hiding in Montana.

 

  Safe Travels,.   Vern

[jc2]

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 9:30 AM, Wrknrvr said:

 I had a bad cord reel last year. 

 

 I would strongly suggest to eliminate the reel a sap. It may do more harm from disconnecting and connecting often. It just needs to the wiring connected directly.

  I am a mobile Rv tech hiding in Montana.

 

  Safe Travels,.   Vern

Called Newmar and thet show the orig reel that was installed was a Glendining brand so the 1st owner had it replaced for unknown reasons with a Shoreline brand.  Was able to find a mobile tech yesterday who responded to the cg we are at and he did remove the reel and install it directly into the Progressive EMS system.  He has done this a number of times in the past as the contacts can become pitted and cause various electrical issues.  Will run the cord this way until we get back to the KC area then decide if I will have a new cord reel setup installed.

[Kirk W]

On 7/18/2019 at 4:20 PM, jc2 said:

Will run the cord this way until we get back to the KC area then decide if I will have a new cord reel setup installed.

As a retired electrical service tech, I have not owned a cord reel but have on a few occasions helped an RV owner with one when power fails to reach the RV. Since there are slip rings to connect the power between the cord and the coach to allow for the twisting that rolling the cord requires, that is the most likely failure in your situation. It may be that those can be replaced or repaired but it is probably also a major job that will require removal from the RV. 

[filthy-beast]

Burnt plugs can happen when there is not good solid contact either because of physical deformation of the contacts or corrosion. Think of putting a thin extension cord in, pulling high amps will heat it up and you'll get melting.  Poor partial contact is like a thin cord more amps though a smaller point generates more heat. Poor comparison I know but hope it makes the point.

Interesting that nobody mentioned having a good meter and using to double check the pedestal.

We currently have a park model that I installed a Progressive 50amp unit on.  When the weather gets hot and lots people show up we can get one leg drop to low voltage and the unit does it job cutting our power and waiting a bit when voltage picks back up. Saving my AC from an early death.

[jc2]

After arriving back to the KC area, I disassembled the cord reel and found what the problem was.  Two of the 3 metal contacts were badly pitted/corroded as was the metal cylinder they were in contact with.  Will most likely not replace the electric cord reel with a new one but continue to store it in the electric bay as there has been no problems since wiring directly to the Progressive EMS switch.  Thanks everyone for your comments/suggestions.

Edited July 31, 2019 by jc2