Need Help Understanding 5th Wheel Hitch Weight and TV Payload

[geodog]

Those of us which chosem to tow with a class 8 will never be satisfied with any other tow vehicle.

 

ShortyO

[GlennWest]

X2

[lockmup68]

On 7/7/2019 at 7:00 PM, TXiceman said:

Lockmup, using that philosophy, EVERYONE needs to be towing with a class 8 tractor.  No where near the real world.

Ken

Not true. Only the big fifth wheels and TTs. I’d tow an airstream with the one ton all day long, with a pro pride hitch. Each has its place. Many tow way too much trailer for their truck and stopping is an issue. 

[BigDinAZ]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:44 AM, lockmup68 said:

Stopping is key. You also need to be able to stop when trailer brakes fail. I’m good. Slow and steady, yet stop all day long. Cheaper than a dually too. 

Not unless you paid less than 32K.

[BigDinAZ]

17 hours ago, lockmup68 said:

Not true. Only the big fifth wheels and TTs. I’d tow an airstream with the one ton all day long, with a pro pride hitch. Each has its place. Many tow way too much trailer for their truck and stopping is an issue. 

I absolutely agree with this. That's why I got the big end Ram. I am only looking at a 13-16K lb 5er, I have plenty of starting and stopping power, with or without trailer brakes. In fact, I won't even know it's back there most of the time.

 

Nice truck by the way, I almost purchased the Volvo VNL780 (I took my CDL test in one), and also drove one for a while. I love those Volvo's, but the ones with the Cummins.

Edited July 11, 2019 by BigDinAZ

[MikePamRV]

I'm also in the same boat as the OP. Another newbie, making another rookie error I think. I did a ton of research, reading all of Ford's Towing Guides and trying my best to do my due diligence. The right combination of tow weight rating, axle ratio, GCWR etc all pointed me to believe that when the right truck came along at the right price, I was set based on the parameters we had determined would suit our need on the 5er brands/lengths we were looking at.

Found a nice 2011 F250 6.7L Super Cab that ON PAPER was up to the task, given a (NADA guide) curb weight of 6195 lbs. Only AFTER I purchased the truck and got it on a CAT scale, lo and behold the truck comes in at almost 7300 lbs (no occupants, and half a tank of diesel --- maybe 125 lbs?). Somehow my truck had gained almost 1000 lbs of valuable cargo capacity. I know the diesel engine weighs much more than the gas, but I selected (and made SURE I had selected) the diesel version. WTH??????

So now we too are stuck with a 3/4 ton truck that we can only put about 2000 lbs of pin weight on before we hit our 10k GVWR for the truck. (Allowing 700 for me, the missus, the dogs, the toolbox and Reese hitch.) I guess we're off to trade in the 250 we've had for a month and go in search of a 1-tonner. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Mike W (Calhoun GA)

[NDBirdman]

Welcome to the forum!  I did about the same thing.  Traded it off on what I now have and never looked back.

[Ray,IN]

This online 5th wheel weight calculator will be of immense help when safely and properly matching a truck and 5er. It even offers the option of choosing the 20% safety factor many full-timers favor.

Note, it requires actual weights for some blocks.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Ray,IN

[jblo]

MikeW, 

Were you not able to check the payload sticker on the truck before purchasing?

[GlennWest]

5 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

This online 5th wheel weight calculator will be of immense help when safely and properly matching a truck and 5er. It even offers the option of choosing the 20% safety factor many full-timers favor.

Note, it requires actual weights for some blocks.

That is one confusing calculator. 

[MikePamRV]

9 hours ago, jblo said:

MikeW, 

Were you not able to check the payload sticker on the truck before purchasing?

I checked the VIN label which showed the GVWR as 10,000 lbs. I assumed that all the online data I could find about the curb weight would be accurate (which all indicated around 6200 lbs) so I felt comfortable allowing 3800 lbs for the payload. Only AFTER I bought it did I get it to a CAT scale to find out the weight was almost 7300 lbs. Now I can barely allow for us + hitch + toolbox and a dry (unladen) kingpin weight of around 2200. We want to FT, so we don't want to compromise on the 5er size. I just wish Ford didn't distribute bad info (regarding curb weight) so I wouldn't have fallen into this trap. Sux to be us.

[NDBirdman]

7 hours ago, MikePamRV said:

We want to FT, so we don't want to compromise on the 5er size.

Can you sell this truck without taking a loss since you got a great price on it?  Make a profit or break even?  A stealership will take you to the cleaners on trade-ins.  Or, if you have not bought the RV yet, look at smaller, or lighter Travel-Trailer for the time being? 

[Ray,IN]

12 hours ago, GlennWest said:

That is one confusing calculator. 

What is confusing to you? Perhaps I can help you out.

[MikePamRV]

Hi Birdman,

The dealership I bought it from said they'll take it back with a minimal hit to my bank account AND with no contingency on my buying the next truck from them. He's checking what he can to see if he can locate the right rig for us, but if he comes up empty in the next 48 hrs or so, I'll just have to take the $$ and get what I can. Couple of units that meet our criteria within a state or two, but will have to rent a car to get to the them. Sheesh, whaddamess. 

[NDBirdman]

Atleast they will take it back.  If I may suggest, find a camper you want, the layout you want and figure out all the weight details for it.  Then make sure you get the size truck you need to haul it.  It would stink to buy another truck, fall in love with an RV and find yourself in the same situation.  A lot of folks here find the RV of their dreams but want/need an HDT to pull it safely, or atleast a 1 ton dually.  Others find a 3/4 ton will pull their dream camper.  Just a note, if you needed an HDT, most can be purchased for alot less than an newer won ton dual rear wheel truck.  I could have bought 2 for what I paid for my truck.... LOL  If I am right, you are stuck to a Ford?  I ran fords all my life, until a stealership pissed me off.  I decided to jump ship to a RAM and so far, have found it to be a much better truck.  Yea, I'm sure that statement will make a few folks unhappy but it is what it is.

As far as what manufacturer says is payload, gross weight, etc, they figure it out with a half tank of fuel and one 150lb driver.  You need to take into account your weight, wife's, kids/passengers/pets and what not gear you will also have in your cab.  It all adds to the payload, the weight of the hitch, tools, etc.  It all adds up/subtracts from available weight usable by the camper.  I think you already said something about that so you probably understand it already.  Yes, getting a diesel over a gas engine removes a lot of usable payload as does the cab type/bed length, etc.

Edited August 7, 2019 by NDBirdman

[BigDinAZ]

On 8/6/2019 at 4:32 PM, MikePamRV said:

Hi Birdman,

The dealership I bought it from said they'll take it back with a minimal hit to my bank account AND with no contingency on my buying the next truck from them. He's checking what he can to see if he can locate the right rig for us, but if he comes up empty in the next 48 hrs or so, I'll just have to take the $$ and get what I can. Couple of units that meet our criteria within a state or two, but will have to rent a car to get to the them. Sheesh, whaddamess. 

We got soooooo lucky at the dealership. They cancelled the contract and we started over, mind you we only had it a couple days and didn't put but a few miles on it.

Tou have to be careful with those vin check things, they can be off, and the paper charts are only a guide.

Best thing is the sticker inside the door. Take GVWR and subtract the payload on the sticker and you get curb weight.

I sure hope it all works out for you.

[BigDinAZ]

On 8/6/2019 at 6:10 PM, NDBirdman said:

Atleast they will take it back.  If I may suggest, find a camper you want, the layout you want and figure out all the weight details for it.  Then make sure you get the size truck you need to haul it.  It would stink to buy another truck, fall in love with an RV and find yourself in the same situation.  A lot of folks here find the RV of their dreams but want/need an HDT to pull it safely, or atleast a 1 ton dually.  Others find a 3/4 ton will pull their dream camper.  Just a note, if you needed an HDT, most can be purchased for alot less than an newer won ton dual rear wheel truck.  I could have bought 2 for what I paid for my truck.... LOL  If I am right, you are stuck to a Ford?  I ran fords all my life, until a stealership pissed me off.  I decided to jump ship to a RAM and so far, have found it to be a much better truck.  Yea, I'm sure that statement will make a few folks unhappy but it is what it is.

As far as what manufacturer says is payload, gross weight, etc, they figure it out with a half tank of fuel and one 150lb driver.  You need to take into account your weight, wife's, kids/passengers/pets and what not gear you will also have in your cab.  It all adds to the payload, the weight of the hitch, tools, etc.  It all adds up/subtracts from available weight usable by the camper.  I think you already said something about that so you probably understand it already.  Yes, getting a diesel over a gas engine removes a lot of usable payload as does the cab type/bed length, etc.

Well spoken. I actually considered an HDT, have seen some awesome set ups, but because I had a real good trade in, and it brought the price of our truck down to around what you pay for a nice car, so we did that.

I agree, and this statement will most likely ruffle some feathers but so be it, right now (at the time of this posting) Ram is king for towing. 

I am piling a light 11k GVWR 5er, but that may change down the road. IF that day comes, I know my truck will handle it, because I ran all the numbers and I know what it is capable of.

I went Cummins for longevity and peace of mind, and yes that adds to weight of the truck. My Ram has a payload of 5,704lbs, can you imagine if I had a Hemi in it?

Edited August 20, 2019 by BigDinAZ

[NDBirdman]

36 minutes ago, BigDinAZ said:

I went Cummins for longevity and peace of mind, and yes that adds to weight of the truck. My Ram has a payload of 5,704lbs, can you imagine if I had a Hemi in it?

That's a very nice rig!!  I've actually been down to the dealer looking for a 2018 or newer H.O. longbed but they said they can't find me one within 500 miles.  But they are trying to push ordering a 2020 model on me.   Mines the Megacab, it actually looses some payload... grrrrr..... LOL  Yup, with the hemi you would pick up more payload but in the end, it does not have the torque of the cummins.  One thing, don't delay maintenance on these things, they will bite you in the back-side.  Other than that, these things run forever.  If you have not gone to this site, go join it.  There is a poop-load of good info there:  www.cumminsforum.com

My RV weighs the same as yours.  My truck handles it like it's not even there.  Lots of specific truck/eng. towing suggestions there, it is a little learning curve to get the best out of this engine/transmission. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by NDBirdman

[BigDinAZ]

21 hours ago, NDBirdman said:

That's a very nice rig!!  I've actually been down to the dealer looking for a 2018 or newer H.O. longbed but they said they can't find me one within 500 miles.  But they are trying to push ordering a 2020 model on me.   Mines the Megacab, it actually looses some payload... grrrrr..... LOL  Yup, with the hemi you would pick up more payload but in the end, it does not have the torque of the cummins.  One thing, don't delay maintenance on these things, they will bite you in the back-side.  Other than that, these things run forever.  If you have not gone to this site, go join it.  There is a poop-load of good info there:  www.cumminsforum.com

My RV weighs the same as yours.  My truck handles it like it's not even there.  Lots of specific truck/eng. towing suggestions there, it is a little learning curve to get the best out of this engine/transmission. 

I didn't get the HO and here is why.

The and Aisian reduce payload capacity because they weigh more. I am all about payload. Yes you get more torque with the HO and Aisin, which increase tow rating. But what good is a higher tow rating, if you don't have the payload to handle the pin weight of a heavier trailer?

If I was going to hotshot full time, maybe, but doing what I am doing, just couldn't justify the extra $ just to get a higher tow rating. This cam be argued 10 ways to Sunday, but it all comes down to GVWR, GCWR, AWR, and Payload, tow rating is the least important. With theese trucks, you have to give something to get something, and I didn't want to give up payload.

I tested the two trucks, had them side by side, drove both, and ran the numbers on both, my truck and the exact same one only with HO, Aisian, and Air bags, and an extra several grand on top at the dealer when I was deciding.

I already told you why I didn't go for the HO, now the air bags.

They are a moot point for me. With my numbers way the hell up there, an 11k 5er doesn't squat my truck at all. It sits level as it should, even a 13k trailer wouldn't cause much squat. A 16K, yea maybe a little, but still not enough to justify the extra cost for the Air bags, and at that the bags do nothing to increase payload or tow rating, they only assist with leveling, and if I don't need leveling, then I don't need the bags, moot point for me, so I ended up with what I got, and couldn't be happier.

I have a hell of a lot of free payload, massive axle ratings, more than enough torque with the 4:10 rear and awesome tire ratings with the DRW.

Yup, I am a happy camper (no pun intended).

[NDBirdman]

Cool, you gave me something to think about!  I just wish I had found a long bed.... LOL  Atleast I have a 28ft flatbed trailer to haul materials with.  Maybe I'll just concentrate on finding a new(ish) toy hauler.  I'm leaning towards the GD Momentum 351.  I could handle that with my RAM.

[Ray,IN]

On 8/20/2019 at 8:29 PM, BigDinAZ said:

I didn't get the HO and here is why.

The and Aisian reduce payload capacity because they weigh more. I am all about payload. Yes you get more torque with the HO and Aisin, which increase tow rating. But what good is a higher tow rating, if you don't have the payload to handle the pin weight of a heavier trailer?

If I was going to hotshot full time, maybe, but doing what I am doing, just couldn't justify the extra $ just to get a higher tow rating. This cam be argued 10 ways to Sunday, but it all comes down to GVWR, GCWR, AWR, and Payload, tow rating is the least important. With theese trucks, you have to give something to get something, and I didn't want to give up payload.

I tested the two trucks, had them side by side, drove both, and ran the numbers on both, my truck and the exact same one only with HO, Aisian, and Air bags, and an extra several grand on top at the dealer when I was deciding.

I already told you why I didn't go for the HO, now the air bags.

They are a moot point for me. With my numbers way the hell up there, an 11k 5er doesn't squat my truck at all. It sits level as it should, even a 13k trailer wouldn't cause much squat. A 16K, yea maybe a little, but still not enough to justify the extra cost for the Air bags, and at that the bags do nothing to increase payload or tow rating, they only assist with leveling, and if I don't need leveling, then I don't need the bags, moot point for me, so I ended up with what I got, and couldn't be happier.

I have a hell of a lot of free payload, massive axle ratings, more than enough torque with the 4:10 rear and awesome tire ratings with the DRW.

Yup, I am a happy camper (no pun intended).

The  extended cab/double cab also reduces payload and tow rating. If you goal is maximum payload and tow rating, only a standard cab will meet the goal.

[BigDinAZ]

9 hours ago, Ray,IN said:

The  extended cab/double cab also reduces payload and tow rating. If you goal is maximum payload and tow rating, only a standard cab will meet the goal.

Yup, but with my set up, I don't need a sliding hit h as my trailer sits back far from the cab.

I ended up with 5,700lbs payload capacity which is huge. All the trucks I looked at were around 3,500 to 4,000. With my payload, and my 11000# GVWR trailer after pin weight and loading the truck I still have about 2500 lbs of free payload which is very comforting for me to know, so that if I ever decide to get a bigger trailer I have the room to do so.

I also have a 21,600lb tow rating which is way more than I will ever need. If I do go bigger the largest I will go is a 16k GVWR which would still leave me with almost 1k payload.

Like I said before, you have to give something to get something with theese trucks, so far I have the highest payload of all the trucks I looked at, not to say there aren't others with higher payload, just in the trucks I looked at.

If I was going to hotshot then yea I would have done the HO and probably done the Tradesman, not to say I couldn't hotshot with my truck, but I don't plan on it.

I am more than happy with my choice.

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by BigDinAZ

[BigDinAZ]

I guess another way of putting it is like this.

When I was looking g at trucks I wanted the following Parameters.

Ram 3500 DRW, long bed, crew cab, with 4:10 rear and the highest payload capacity withing those parameters.

I went to 5 dealerships and looked at a lot of trucks.

I found my truck and one exactly the same, Laramie package. Only difference was it had the HO, Aisin, and air bags.

It had a GCWR of 33,300#, mine has a GCWR of 30,300# a difference of 3,000#. It had a tow rating of 23,000# my rating is 21,600# a difference of 1,400#. It had a GVWR of 12,000#, mine is 14,000# and a max payload of 4,300#, mine is 5,704#. It was also $4,200.00 more.

So, while ot had a higher tow rating and a higher GCWR it also had a a lower GVWR and Payload.

They are all very close, depending on the package you choose, and for me the $4,000. Difference was not worth it just to get the HO and air bags.

Personal I am not sold on the air bags for the 1 ton yet anyhow, and I think they can be a false sense of security. They do nothing for payload or towing, only assist in leveling, and someone who doesn't understand numbers could think well it's not squatting so it's all good, when in reality they could be over payload.

[chief916]

On 7/8/2019 at 5:13 PM, geodog said:

Those of us which chosem to tow with a class 8 will never be satisfied with any other tow vehicle.

 

ShortyO

So true.

[BigDinAZ]

35 minutes ago, chief916 said:

So true.

Yup I get that too have driven them, and gave it thought.

If I was going to tow anything over 16k I would up to a 450 class or go HDT.

Anything under 16K I am more than comfortable with my 3500.