Lithium Battery Question

[Carlos]

Well, I hate generators too.  That part is just about available amp-hours.  I'm interested in the info you guys gave on the LiFeP04s in this application.  I have 100-some Lipos on hand, and a lot of experience with those, but minimal with LiFeP04 and none in large applications.

 

[Al F]

11 hours ago, Carlos said:

Well, I hate generators too.  That part is just about available amp-hours.  I'm interested in the info you guys gave on the LiFeP04s in this application.  I have 100-some Lipos on hand, and a lot of experience with those, but minimal with LiFeP04 and none in large applications.

What chemistry lithium do you have on hand?  LiFePO4 has a 3.2V-3.3V per cell nominal voltage with makes it great for 12V & 24V systems, the others are about 3.6V-3.7V.  LiFePO4 has shown to be very stable when abused, beaten with a hammer, shot with a gun, case split open, etc. 

If you build your own battery, a BMS for the battery is a MUST.  it is easy to ruin a lithium beyond recovery.  

Here is a chart about the chemistry differences: 

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/bu_216_summary_table_of_lithium_based_batteries

And a link to more info than most people want about lithium batteries:

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

[jcussen]

For me the very best feature of lithium ion,  is the ability to charge at up to 1C to 100% SOC with no absorption stage. So if I have used 200 amp hours out of my battery bank, and I can get 80 amps from my panels, and 120 amps out of my inverter/charger, in 1 hour, I am fully charged. With my old agm batteries, that would have taken 6 or more hours. Of course, unlike Lead Acid batteries, lithium batteries never have to be charged to 100%. 

[Carlos]

8 hours ago, Al F said:

What chemistry lithium do you have on hand?

 

They are standard Lipos for RC planes and helicopters.  I didn't mean to suggest that I'd use them for an RV.  Just commenting that I have many years of research and usage on standard Lipos, and know their problems and requirements very well.  I have a bunch of chargers, controllers, testers, and the like.  So here I'm learning just how different LiFePO4 is from those.

 

[Al F]

3 hours ago, Carlos said:

 

They are standard Lipos for RC planes and helicopters.  I didn't mean to suggest that I'd use them for an RV.  Just commenting that I have many years of research and usage on standard Lipos, and know their problems and requirements very well.  I have a bunch of chargers, controllers, testers, and the like.  So here I'm learning just how different LiFePO4 is from those.

 

Why I asked which chemistry the "Lipos" you have experience with is that there are at least 6 different chemistries of lithium batteries, each with pros and cons as detailed in the links I gave earlier.    

I can understand that the lithiums you have experience with may not be labled with with the chemistry for that battery.  

Edited April 3, 2019 by Al F

[mptjelgin]

The LiPo batteries most commonly used to power RC aircraft use Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2) chemistry. These batteries are designed to produce amazing amperage for their size, are are often loaded at a rate that completely discharges them from full in 5 minutes or less.  In some extreme cases they are completely discharged in less than 2 minutes! They are also commonly charged at rates of up to 3C (or even 5C), and  their energy density is significantly higher than the Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4) used for the applications being discussed here.  In many ways Lithium Cobalt Oxide outperforms Lithium Iron Phosphate. 

So why isn't this chemistry used in the more widespread automotive applications? Because the Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2) chemistry is sensitive to damage. An RC battery that is punctured or even significantly damaged will generally self-ignite with some spectacular heat and nasty smoke. RC batteries are also fussy little things regarding how they are charged, discharged, stored, etc. Failure to treat them right results in very short life. 

[oldjohnt]

At the recent RVillage Rally I attened a Seminar at a coach with a 48 Volt 300 Amp Hour  battery labeled "Nickel Cobalt Manganese Lithium Ion" Obviously a bit different from LiFePo4...

John T

Edited April 4, 2019 by oldjohnt

[Carlos]

Quote

An RC battery that is punctured or even significantly damaged will generally self-ignite with some spectacular heat and nasty smoke.

 

Or even just flown hard, with zero damage.  Just exceeded the load rating accidentally.

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Carlos

[Changing Itinerary]

On 3/25/2019 at 12:15 AM, PeterShep said:

Thanks for the replies.  True about he the lifetime warranty, but the company has been around for 18 years.  After comparing the Battle Born Specs, vs the Lion Energy, I decided that saving 30% was worth it.  I know Battle Born is doing a great job at promoting themselves, heck you can't watch YouTube video without them partnering with anyone with a Youtube channel.  Seems, Battle Born is eager to send out freebies to the YouTubers, but not pass any savings to the actual consumer.  Like I said, they are doing a great job at promoting their product with little investment.  

We I first stopped at the Lion Energy booth, they had rows and rows of batteries.  When I returned, their stock was down to nothing.  People were lining up to buy their batteries.  Installing them was fairly easy.  My converter can handle the lithiums, but will only charge them to 13.7v, lithiums can charge to 14.3v, so I will upgrade the converter.  

Everyone knows the old saying "you get what you paid for", so time will tell if I made the right choice.  

Hi Peter,

How are the Lion Energy batteries working out so far?  I invested in a pair made available through my Airstream dealer.  They took out two factory Interstate Lead Acid batteries and dropped the Lion Energy's in place.  

Before choosing the upgrade I called and spoke to someone in tech support at Lion.  They were helpful.  For now I am sticking with the WFCO factory converter but like you I am considering an upgrade later.  I am hoping the 3-stage factory converter will bulk charge to the the mid-80% range and then a Zamp portable solar kit with a built-in charge controller that has a setting for Lithium will get me up to 100% often enough. If not, I can swap the WFCO for a Progressive or Iota that have lithium settings.   

Please let me know how it is going for you so far and I'll do the same after I pick up the new rig in two weeks.

Thanks,

Scott 

[mptjelgin]

I notice that Renogy is running a Memorial Day Sale on with 20% off of all of their products. This means that their 100 Amp-Hour Lithium batteries are $720 with free shipping. Pretty good deal if you're in the market...