Lithium Battery Question

[PeterShep]

Looking for Lithium batteries for my Super C and was at the RV Show in Scottsdale and came across Lion Energy, out of American Forks, UT.  They are offering a 12V 100ah, Lithium battery for the show price of $699.00 regular $999.00.  They spec out identical to Battle Born and do come with a lifetime warranty.  Question is, has anyone done business with this company or is anyone using the Lion Energy Lithium Battery in their RV?

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Lion is a group that left Battle Born and started their own.  Same technology and ideas.

[fly2low]

Most new companies fail - fact of life.

Lifetime means nothing if they are not around

[GeorgiaHybrid]

11 hours ago, fly2low said:

Most new companies fail - fact of life.

Lifetime means nothing if they are not around

The only sure things in life are dying and some politician having their hand in your wallet. ANY company can fail so you have to look at how they are built, what you are getting relative to your money and make a decision that is best for your situation.

[jblo]

Looks like they only have the one battery, rest are solar and survival/minimalist items.  Would not think the one battery is their own make?

Are lithium batteries like LA types, very few actual manufacturers?

[Itinerant1]

The cells (prismatic,  pouch, cylinder) come from China from various companies then they are assembled here in America and made into a "drop in" style battery by various companies like Battleborn or others with their name on the case. You just don't know who actually manufactured the cells though.

[PeterShep]

Thanks for the replies.  True about he the lifetime warranty, but the company has been around for 18 years.  After comparing the Battle Born Specs, vs the Lion Energy, I decided that saving 30% was worth it.  I know Battle Born is doing a great job at promoting themselves, heck you can't watch YouTube video without them partnering with anyone with a Youtube channel.  Seems, Battle Born is eager to send out freebies to the YouTubers, but not pass any savings to the actual consumer.  Like I said, they are doing a great job at promoting their product with little investment.  

We I first stopped at the Lion Energy booth, they had rows and rows of batteries.  When I returned, their stock was down to nothing.  People were lining up to buy their batteries.  Installing them was fairly easy.  My converter can handle the lithiums, but will only charge them to 13.7v, lithiums can charge to 14.3v, so I will upgrade the converter.  

Everyone knows the old saying "you get what you paid for", so time will tell if I made the right choice.  

[hemsteadc]

3 hours ago, PeterShep said:

, so I will upgrade the converter. Everyone knows the old saying "you get what you paid for", so time will tell if I made the right choice.  

Li's (the ones I'm familiar with) don't have an absorb phase.. make sure your converter does that.  Yes, you get what you pay for is very true.  Congrats on getting an Li.. I have one and it's wonderful.  

[Tom_M]

Walmart is selling a Renogy LiFePO4 170ah for $980.84.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Renogy-Lithium-Iron-Phosphate-Battery-12-Volt-170-Amp-Hour/838476134

[oldjohnt]

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 6:54 PM, Tom_M said:

Walmart is selling a Renogy LiFePO4 170ah for $980.84.

Maybe that's gonna be similar to when I bought my Renogy 200 AH AGM's for $247 and a week later they raised to $399 IE Hurry now lol

I'm at the RVillage Rally in Live Oak Florida today and toured a 42 Ft Class A with a 300 Amp Hour at 48 Volt battery ("think it said Nickel Cobalt Manganese Lithium Ion) which was charged by an extra alternator on the Cummins Diesel rated at they said 58 volt and 180 amp ???  

John T

Edited March 30, 2019 by oldjohnt

[Tom_M]

I ordered one of these Thursday and it is scheduled to arrive at a Walmart April 4.

I'm also in Florida and will start my trek back home soon. Will be in the Lake City area mid April. I won't be installing the battery until I get back to Minneapolis.

[Dale P]

Most of the batteries are come out of China. $699 is a good price. Friend purchased Qty 6 (same size) for $650 delivered to door in Fla.

[Dale P]

Checked there site:

https://lionenergy.com/products/lion-safari-ut

 

Now $1000, not a good deal

[Tom_M]

On 3/29/2019 at 7:19 PM, oldjohnt said:

Maybe that's gonna be similar to when I bought my Renogy 200 AH AGM's for $247 and a week later they raised to $399 IE Hurry now lol

Amazon has dropped their price to the same as Walmart, so perhaps we'll have a price war.

Here's a good video on YouTube comparing options for lithium:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOqQp2Xjr6U

[dewilso]

I wonder if that 170AH is usable or full rated capacity. BB 100AH gives you 100AH usable. I had 4 BB in my C, that I had in my Foretravel, Love this new technology!

[oldjohnt]

2 hours ago, Tom_M said:

Amazon has dropped their price to the same as Walmart, so perhaps we'll have a price war.

Here's a good video on YouTube comparing options for lithium:

Tom, indeed Will puts out good information. While they get much of the publicity and they sponsor so many You Tubers (great at marketing) BattleBorn  is NOT the only player out there. Shop around, do your homework and ESPECIALLY match a Converter/Charger to preserve and protect that huge investment NOT just any old charger as Lithiums have specific charge parameters as compared to other technology. The term "drop in" can be misleading as its NOT ONLY the physical size of the case that matters, but a custom programmable or Lithium option Converter/Charger and MPPT solar charge controller should be part of the overall Lithium based system. If I'm gonna spend over a thousand dollars per battery, I'm willing to invest in the best charging available, but that's just me !!!      

John T   Retired n rusty EE and no solar experts but its sure fun learning

[Tom_M]

All good points. I have been using a pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries. I think my biggest issue is not fully charging them on a regular basis. I dry camp and rely on solar for virtually all of my charging so I will be updating my charge controller. I rarely run my generator and am rarely plugged in so my converter is not much of an issue. I most likely will update that at some point.

The Renogy battery has built in BMS that monitors each cell. If a single cell's voltage goes above or below parameters, the battery disconnects. It also monitors battery temperature. The BMS will prevent discharging below the cell cutoff voltage. This should allow 100% usage of the 170ah.

Well time will tell how this works out. Hopefully a long time.

[Al F]

On 3/31/2019 at 7:48 AM, Tom_M said:

Amazon has dropped their price to the same as Walmart, so perhaps we'll have a price war.

Here's a good video on YouTube comparing options for lithium:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOqQp2Xjr6U

Tom,  Thanks for the link to Will Prowse's video.  Great info.

Also lots of great info at his website:  https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/  You don't have to use the exact components he lists, but there are lots of great links to where to purchase components to build your own lithium system. 

[Tom_M]

On 3/29/2019 at 7:19 PM, oldjohnt said:

Maybe that's gonna be similar to when I bought my Renogy 200 AH AGM's for $247 and a week later they raised to $399 IE Hurry now lol

Walmart is now showing "Out of stock". Amazon's price has now gone to $1499.99. Looks like I jumped on board at just the right time.

[Carlos]

As much as I love newer technology, I can't understand the use of these batteries in RVs.  The cost per amp-hour is so ridiculously high that you would have to account for 30+ years' worth of battery replacement to pay for it.  And by then, we'll have much better and cheaper batteries.  So what's the perceived benefit?  220aH of lead-acids (110 usable) costs $200.  The Lithium batteries go for between 10 and 20 times as much.

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Carlos

[hemsteadc]

Carlos, I'll give it a go:

I dropped over 300lb going to Li. I can charge this baby at 34 amps, that's the equivalent of 132 amps @ 12v. There's no long absorb phase.  There's no harm in sitting undercharged.  I never have to water. I never get corrosion.  At age 70 these are the last batteries I will ever buy - I seriously doubt I'll be alive in 30 years.  And, the best part is, I can afford it.  

Edited April 2, 2019 by hemsteadc

[Carlos]

Those are the types of rational answers I was looking for, thanks.

 

[Al F]

Lithium is more like 5 times as much as golf cart batteries. Not 10-20 times as expensive.   Like Carlos said, a pair of golf cart batteries is about $200. BattleBorn and others have a 100AH lithium for right at $1K.  The 100AH lithium matches up well with a pair of golf cart batteries.   

Many folks don't want to mess with checking water levels in the inexpensive golf cart batteries, and/or need to move the batteries into an enclosed unvented area so they need to move up to AGM batteries.  This makes the lithium closer to 3 times as much.  

However, if you only occasionally dry camp or boondock then the lead acid works very well.  An over night w/o elect hookups, or a week of boondocking and then back to elect hookups works great with lead acid.  

Yes, lithium is expensive however:  Lithium works wonderfully for those of us who do lots of drycamping/boondocking.  We NEVER have to be concerned about getting the batteries to 100%.  If you don't get lead acid to 100% every 4-7 days and do this for a few weeks the battery plates sulfate and you loose capacity.  Lithium is quite happy running from 30% to 60-80% full pretty much forever.  

Some boondockers, run their generator for 1-2 hours most every morning to get a partial charge and then let solar get the batteries to 100%.

In 2016 on our 4 1/2 month Alaska trip we went 137 days w/o elect hookups.  We only ran our generator for 1.5 hours one day to charge the batteries after about 3 days of heavy clouds.   

We have 650 watts of solar and 400AH of Lithium.  Our batteries don't charge while the MH engine is running so no charging while driving. 

[Carlos]

Ok, so you are saying that the 100-rated Lithium is 100aH of USABLE power?  Then yeah, that cuts the cost a lot.  I was comparing to $100 for a usable 55aH per GC2 battery.  I'm not an expert on LiFeP04, but straight LiPo batteries are very picky about not being fully charged.  That's part of what I wasn't aware of with LiFeP04 also.

I have used LiFeP04 in motorcycles, with obvious benefits there too.

 

[Al F]

31 minutes ago, Carlos said:

Ok, so you are saying that the 100-rated Lithium is 100aH of USABLE power?  Then yeah, that cuts the cost a lot.  I was comparing to $100 for a usable 55aH per GC2 battery.  I'm not an expert on LiFeP04, but straight LiPo batteries are very picky about not being fully charged.  That's part of what I wasn't aware of with LiFeP04 also.

I have used LiFeP04 in motorcycles, with obvious benefits there too.

 

Technically not exactly 100Ah, at least not in my opinion. More like 80AH, again IMO.  I will NOT run my lithium down to 0% full.   Then again when I had lead acid I didn't discharge them below much more that 25% (75% full).   

Trojan batteries used to show life cycles for some of their 6V batteries.  3000 life cycles if you only go to 75% full, 1500 cycles if you go to 50% full and about 750 cycles if you go to 20% full (80% discharged). 

If you compare the lithium 3000-5000 cycles at 80% discharged to lead acid 1500 at 50% discharged that helps justify the cost of lithium.

On the other hand if you used (cycled) your lead acid every day for about 4 years you would just reach your 1500 life cycles.   So most people would not have a problem with that.

Hey, it comes back to what you want to do.  I really don't like to run my generator even though it is very quiet.  Boondocking/dry camping is about quiet and enjoying the outdoors, nature, and peace and quiet, not the noise of generators.  I love my lithium after many years of lead acid.