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LindaH

UPG Batteries or ?

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21 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

In addition, you might take a look at FullRiver to add to your comparison shopping.

 

20 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

If you are looking for batteries, check out Fullriver as well. 

I'll add Fullriver to my search, too.  Thanks.

We've been RVing since 1996, 12 of those fulltime and most of that time has been spent boondocking/dry camping, so we're not new to solar or batteries (although I know very little about the technical aspect of things).

We run two computers, charge 2 phones and a tablet, have a satellite receiver and 12-volt TV.  We don't watch TV during the day...it doesn't get turned on until the evening when we watch news, Jeopardy, and prime time.  The receiver is disconnected from power when we're not watching TV, so it's not drawing any power during the day/overnight.  We're very stingy with other power...we use a battery-powered lantern during the evening while we're watching TV to provide light rather than keeping any of the RV lights on.  But with our 80 Ah AGM batteries we currently have, we often find during the winter, that we have to turn on the generator at night to top off the batteries, especially if it's been a cloudy day.  Thus the search for batteries with more amp hours.

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Sorry LindaH for hijacking your thread.

 

Here is a pic of mine and my wifes power supply with info.  It shows I was off in my thinking, but maybe this will tell me what I need.  My pressure is 9, wife's is 10.  Neither has heated hose.  I only have temp setting on my humidity which I keep at 64.  Wife's has a 1 - 5, she keeps it on 4.  Neither of us can do without the humidity as we both wake up with bloody noses if we don't, need the moisture.

 

 

Mine.jpg

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BIG THANKS BIRDMAN now you're getting us nameplate information so we have something to work with and stop this infernal guessing lol

The nameplate says right on it 90 Watts,,,,,,,,,,The nameplate lists 24 volts at 3.75 Amps and that's also 90 Watts,,,,,,,,It lists 120 Volts and 1.0 amps which would be 120 Watts but if at 1.5 amps that would equal 180 watts (yet it says 90 watts but frequency needs accounted for) Of course the converter brick is NOT 100% efficient there are heat losses so if it puts 90 watts OUT it requires MORE THEN 90 Watts IN...

To be safe and on the conservative side let me compute the energy that would be consumed if two of those used 120watts each(even though plate says 90) and each was used for eight hours

120 x 2 = 240 watts for eight hours that equals 1920 watt hours of energy...…..If its powered via a 12 volt battery (running a 12 VDC to 120 VAC Inverter) that would be 1920/12 =  160 Amp Hours at 12 Volts of battery energy use.

If they used 90 watts, 90x2= 180 for 8 hours = 1440 watt hours at 12 volts = 120 Amp Hours

Since its best to NOT draw down an AGM or Lead Acid Battery more then 50% it looks like SAME AS I GUESSED ABOVE LOL a 400 Amp Hour bank of batteries (200 useable) should suffice provided its SOC is near to 100% when the process starts

NOTE theres a chance based on pressure and humidity and heat they might consume as little as 100 Amp Hours in which case you might squeak by with a 200 Amp Hour battery bank but that requires 100 SOC when started and that's just too close for me. battery life is extended if you draw down LESS then 50% so I would use 400 Amp hours of battery if I have rom and can afford it. I got by fine at 400 AH but like my now 520 better in case its cold and the furnace runs often etc

NOTE these are ONLY approximations and heat losses and inefficiency needs considered SO THIS IS NOT EXACT dont anyone have a calf now

John T

Edited by oldjohnt

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2 hours ago, hemsteadc said:

I vote Lifeline AGM deep cycle.  Wonderful batteries.

Lifelines are good batteries.  From mine and others (whom I have personal knowledge of) experience, I would put Fullriver right there as an equal to Lifelines.  The benefit to Fullriver over Lifeline is Fullriver batteries are usually cheaper to purchase.

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2 hours ago, LindaH said:

But with our 80 Ah AGM batteries we currently have, we often find during the winter, that we have to turn on the generator at night to top off the batteries, especially if it's been a cloudy day.  Thus the search for batteries with more amp hours.

Linda, you're on top if this and that's a good plan. I might add the 135 Amp Hour batteries you listed will do better than your 80's BUT if you have the room and budget think about maybe a 200 Amp Hour 12 Volt AGM battery (or two 100's in parallel)  ??? They are in a frame size 4D and weight around 130 lbs, wouldn't that be nice lol   Its fun to spend other peoples money...….I think FullRiver and Lifeline and Trojan and Renogy may all have such, I have three of the Renogy myself and so far they are working GREAT

John T 

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19 minutes ago, oldjohnt said:

 if you have the room and budget think about maybe a 200 Amp Hour 12 Volt AGM battery (or two 100's in parallel)  ???

I take it they're significantly bigger batteries?  I know we have room for taller batteries in our slide-out battery tray and I *think* we could put deeper (front to back) batteries.  I'm not sure about width...I'd have to go out to the RV and take a look.

19 minutes ago, oldjohnt said:

 They are in a frame size 4D and weight around 130 lbs, wouldn't that be nice lol  

OK, this is where my knowledge of batteries fails.  Can you explain what a frame size 4D means (guess I could Google it)?  260 pounds would be quite a bit of weight on the side of the RV that's heavier, anyway, although the battery compartment is just ahead of the rear axes, so might not be too bad.

Edited by LindaH

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Speaking of battery slide-out trays, since we have AGM batteries, there's been no reason for us to slide out the tray since they were installed in late 2015, and now we're having trouble getting it out.  What would you recommend we put on the rails to "unfreeze" them?

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6 minutes ago, LindaH said:

OK, this is where my knowledge of batteries fails.  Can you explain what a frame size 4D means (guess I could Google it)?  260 pounds would be quite a bit of weight on the side of the RV that's heavier, anyway, although the battery compartment is just ahead of the rear axes, so might not be too bad.

4D, 8D, Group 27, Group 31, GC2, L16, etc. are the typical battery footprints/sizes and also indicate voltage (usually 6 volt or 12 volt).  In other words, they are the standardized labeling for a particular size and voltage battery.  The most common battery sizes are the group 27 or 31 (12 volts) and GC2 (6 volts) sized batteries.  These are the ones that most people think of when talking batteries in general.  If the label used to describe a particular battery doesn't mean anything to you, just look at its actual physical dimensions and voltage ratings listed by the manufacturer to see if it will work for your circumstances. 

1 minute ago, LindaH said:

Speaking of battery slide-out trays, since we have AGM batteries, there's been no reason for us to slide out the tray since they were installed in late 2015, and now we're having trouble getting it out.  What would you recommend we put on the rails to "unfreeze" them?

If it were me, I would actually remove the slide out trays to give you some more room in the compartment (possibly for more batteries).  The slide out trays are very convenient for maintenance when you have Lead Acid batteries.  For AGM batteries, they are not nearly as important because the only maintenance is checking the battery connections and maybe cleaning the terminals once a year or so.

I did remove the battery slide out trays that came in my 5er, but I did this because my OEM battery compartments are now just standard storage compartments instead of battery compartments.  The 8D batteries I ended up purchasing wouldn't fit in the standard battery compartments so I converted them to storage compartments and put the batteries in the basement of my fiver and built boxes around them.

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59 minutes ago, LindaH said:

Speaking of battery slide-out trays, since we have AGM batteries, there's been no reason for us to slide out the tray since they were installed in late 2015, and now we're having trouble getting it out.  What would you recommend we put on the rails to "unfreeze" them?

We had the same problem after our first set was in there about 8 years. I  would try some JB Blaster over a period of a couple of days. After I got ours out I removed it to clean and paint it, now I make sure I move it in and out once a year to keep it moving.

Denny 

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1 hour ago, Chad Heiser said:

4D, 8D, Group 27, Group 31, GC2, L16, etc. are the typical battery footprints/sizes and also indicate voltage (usually 6 volt or 12 volt).  In other words, they are the standardized labeling for a particular size and voltage battery. 

I'm familiar with Group 31 batteries, so this makes sense to me...it's just another "group" size.

1 hour ago, Chad Heiser said:

If it were me, I would actually remove the slide out trays to give you some more room in the compartment (possibly for more batteries). 

I'll have to go out and take a look at our battery compartment to refresh my memory, but I'm pretty sure the compartment is open to the ground underneath, so there'd be nothing to set the batteries on if we were to remove the tray.  It's not an enclosed compartment like we had on our previous fifth wheel.

1 hour ago, D&J said:

We had the same problem after our first set was in there about 8 years. I  would try some JB Blaster over a period of a couple of days. After I got ours out I removed it to clean and paint it, now I make sure I move it in and out once a year to keep it moving.

Thanks, I'll look for the JB Blaster...I'm assuming it's a product that won't attract dirt or grime once used?  Of course, that's probably a moot point once the metal is cleaned and painted. 

What kind of paint did you use to paint the slide out tray.  Something like Rustoleum spray paint?

Yes, we realize now that we should have pulled out the tray occasionally to keep it from freezing up!  :unsure:  Once we get the problem fixed, we'll be sure to do so in the future!

Edited by LindaH

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3 hours ago, LindaH said:

I'm familiar with Group 31 batteries, so this makes sense to me...it's just another "group" size.

I'll have to go out and take a look at our battery compartment to refresh my memory, but I'm pretty sure the compartment is open to the ground underneath, so there'd be nothing to set the batteries on if we were to remove the tray.  It's not an enclosed compartment like we had on our previous fifth wheel.

Thanks, I'll look for the JB Blaster...I'm assuming it's a product that won't attract dirt or grime once used?  Of course, that's probably a moot point once the metal is cleaned and painted. 

What kind of paint did you use to paint the slide out tray.  Something like Rustoleum spray paint?

Yes, we realize now that we should have pulled out the tray occasionally to keep it from freezing up!  :unsure:  Once we get the problem fixed, we'll be sure to do so in the future!

*PB Blaster..

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6 hours ago, LindaH said:

OK, this is where my knowledge of batteries fails.  Can you explain what a frame size 4D means (guess I could Google it)?  260 pounds would be quite a bit of weight on the side of the RV that's heavier, anyway, although the battery compartment is just ahead of the rear axes, so might not be too bad.

Linda, if you decide to go with a 12 Volt 200 Amp Hour Battery in the Frame size 4D YOU ONLY NEED ONE BATTERY WHICH WEIGHS 130 pounds NOT 260 pounds as you posted

Regardless if its FullRiver or Lifeline or Trojan or Renogy Frame size 4D measures APPROXIMATELY

20.5 X 9.4 X 9.4 In.

If you cant fit one big single frame size 4D you can go with TWO smaller lighter 100 Amp Hour batteries wired in parallel. Renogy and Trojan and FullRiver and Lifeline make similar sized battries IE a big single Frame 4D 200 Amp Hour or go with two smaller 12 Volt 100 Amp Hours

You may not need slide outs at all with a new big single Frame size 4D 200 Amp Hour 129 pound battery and loo at the rom in case you decide to go with two smaller lighter 100 Amp Hour batteries wired in parallel

https://www.renogy.com/renogy-deep-cycle-agm-battery-12-volt-200ah/

https://www.renogy.com/renogy-deep-cycle-agm-battery-12-volt-100ah/

Im NOT pushing Renogy on you this is just for comparison look up the same batteries in Lifeline or FullRiver or Trojan. The web page I linked has a link to Specificationswhere size and weight is shown

John T  retired Electrical Engineer

 

Edited by oldjohnt

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6 hours ago, LindaH said:

Speaking of battery slide-out trays, since we have AGM batteries, there's been no reason for us to slide out the tray since they were installed in late 2015, and now we're having trouble getting it out.  What would you recommend we put on the rails to "unfreeze" them?

Ive had good luck with PB Blaster and WD40 myself. They need a good clean up to remove rust and corrosion and crud which PB Blaster or Kroil or WD 40 or Liquid Wrench may help but after its all clean n free try lighter lithium based grease as a final lubricant.

Look at the battery sizes I linked to above and determine what fits maybe even with slides removed??? Less corrosion with AGM you know

John T

Edited by oldjohnt

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5 hours ago, LindaH said:

I'm familiar with Group 31 batteries, so this makes sense to me...it's just another "group" size.

I'll have to go out and take a look at our battery compartment to refresh my memory, but I'm pretty sure the compartment is open to the ground underneath, so there'd be nothing to set the batteries on if we were to remove the tray.  It's not an enclosed compartment like we had on our previous fifth wheel.

Thanks, I'll look for the JB Blaster...I'm assuming it's a product that won't attract dirt or grime once used?  Of course, that's probably a moot point once the metal is cleaned and painted. 

What kind of paint did you use to paint the slide out tray.  Something like Rustoleum spray paint?

Yes, we realize now that we should have pulled out the tray occasionally to keep it from freezing up!  :unsure:  Once we get the problem fixed, we'll be sure to do so in the future!

I used Rustolieum after a good cleaning, if we wouldn't have spent much time on the coasts we would have had that much of a problem. We've had AGMs in the trailer from the time it was new so it's easy to forget about them.

Denny 

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19 hours ago, NDBirdman said:

Sorry LindaH for hijacking your thread.

 

Here is a pic of mine and my wifes power supply with info.  It shows I was off in my thinking, but maybe this will tell me what I need.  My pressure is 9, wife's is 10.  Neither has heated hose.  I only have temp setting on my humidity which I keep at 64.  Wife's has a 1 - 5, she keeps it on 4.  Neither of us can do without the humidity as we both wake up with bloody noses if we don't, need the moisture.

 

 

Mine.jpg

NOTE:  The label shown above only shows the MAX output of the adapter.  It does NOT show the power the CPAP actually uses.  The amount of power the CPAP actually uses is determined by the air setting and the setting for the humidifier.   The actual power used, could very well be 50% of what the above label shows.  

I assume most CPAP humidifiers work like my wife's ResMed.  There is a heater plate in the water reservoir to warm the water.  The warmer the water the more water vapor is released into the air stream. 

Anyone more than just occasionally parking w/o elect hookups overnight,  really must have a good battery monitor.  That is a monitor which continuously displays the amps going in or out of your battery AND keeps a running total of the number of amp hours(AH) used.   The battery monitor I use is a Trimetric like this one: http://www.bogartengineering.com/trimetric.htm  There are other brands around. 

These monitors cost around $150. 

While it is possible to try to use the battery voltage to guesstimate the SOC (50% full, 75% full etc) the only way to insure long life of your batteries is with a good battery monitor.  A lot of the replies to this topic recommend buying expensive brand name batteries.  Keep in mind you can ruin an expensive battery just as quickly as you can golf cart batteries you buy at Costco or Sam's Club for around $90 each.

Once you have the monitor you can instantly see the number of amps the CPAP is using.  This way you will know just how much battery you will need.  

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2 hours ago, Al F said:

A lot of the replies to this topic recommend buying expensive brand name batteries.  Keep in mind you can ruin an expensive battery just as quickly as you can golf cart batteries you buy at Costco or Sam's Club for around $90 each.

Once you have the monitor you can instantly see the number of amps the CPAP is using.  This way you will know just how much battery you will need.  

Right on Al, the ONLY way to accurately determine energy use IS AN ENERGY AUDIT to see what his CPAPs (and other equipment) actually use. As I posted above he might squeak by if his consume 100 or less Amp Hours with a 200 Amp Hour battery (if at 100% SOC when started) BUT if an energy audit shows he needs 150 or more Amp Hours then he needs to go bigger, pretty simple actually.  Battery monitors like you mentioned and Kill A Watt meters are certainly good tools to have around...AMEN  

He doesn't need the MOST EXPENSIVE batteries, he needs to shop for price, quality, life cycles, longevity and CAPACITY and be aware the CHEAP batteries are often that way because they have less energy storage capacity IE less Amp Hours. 

The ratings on those typical 120 VAC to DC Converter bricks (for a CPAP or other appliances) are for the max conditions, the CPAP does not necessarily require that much power, it depends on air pressure and humidity and heat settings. IE ENERGY AUDIT 

God Bless n Best Wishes yall

John T   Live from the RV in hot n sunny Fort Pierce Florida

Edited by oldjohnt

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2 hours ago, Al F said:

 A lot of the replies to this topic recommend buying expensive brand name batteries.  Keep in mind you can ruin an expensive battery just as quickly as you can golf cart batteries you buy at Costco or Sam's Club for around $90 each.

Unfortunately, our local Costco doesn't carry AGM batteries.

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13 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

Linda, if you decide to go with a 12 Volt 200 Amp Hour Battery in the Frame size 4D YOU ONLY NEED ONE BATTERY WHICH WEIGHS 130 pounds NOT 260 pounds as you posted

Good to know!  However, I think we'll have to go with the smaller Group 31 batteries...DH doesn't think that the two of us could lift 130# up into the battery tray.  Maybe 10 years ago, but not now! :unsure:

 

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Anyone have any good places to purchase batteries online?

I was looking at the Fullriver DC115-12 AGM 12V battery yesterday and can get it for $444.23 at Amazon with free shipping.  Another place I looked had the batteries for $338.99 each, but wanted $315.56 for shipping 2 of them!!!  I have another place to check out that also has the battery for $338.99, but I imagine their shipping charges will be outrageous too.

I haven't gotten around to checking prices on some of the other batteries yet, but will do so over the next few days.

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10 minutes ago, LindaH said:

Unfortunately, our local Costco doesn't carry AGM batteries.

Even if they did I doubt you would find FullRiver or Lifeline or Trojan or Renogy etc. That's NOT to say any they carry aren't good, but remember often (not saying always) the Sams or Costco etc etc are cheaper BECAUSE THEY ARE LESS AMP HOURS but hey that's still fine as long as you buy whatever you need regardless of Costco or Sams or anyplace. Buy what works for you at your price NOT whats best for any of us lol

 

John T

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Just now, oldjohnt said:

Even if they did I doubt you would find FullRiver or Lifeline or Trojan or Renogy etc. That's NOT to say any they carry aren't good, but remember often (not saying always) the Sams or Costco etc etc are cheaper BECAUSE THEY ARE LESS AMP HOURS but hey that's still fine as long as you buy whatever you need regardless of Costco or Sams or anyplace. Buy what works for you at your price NOT whats best for any of us lol

That's why we had stopped in at our local Costco to find out what the amp hours on their AGM batteries were...I kinda thought that they wouldn't have any that were 100 Ah or more, but it turned out to be a moot point since they don't even carry them.  I don't know if that's true of Costco generally, or if it was just this store.

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