UPG Batteries or ?

[LindaH]

Anyone know anything about this battery?

UPG UB121350 AGM 12V

The spec sheet can be downloaded here:  Spec Sheet 

Another battery I'm looking at is this one:

VMax SLR-125 AGM 12V

I'm also looking at these, and while I realize they're the "gold standard" in AGM batteries, they're quite a bit more expensive:

Lifeline GPL-31XT AGM 12V

 Trojan Motive T1275-AGM 12V or Trojan Solar SAGM 12 135 12V

I really need help looking at the specs to determine which might work with our setup -- all I know is the 20-hour amp hours and the dimensions...everything else is Greek to me!  We have a 160-watt solar panel on the roof plus 130-watt portable solar panel that we set up when we're in one place for more than overnight. 

Thanks for your help!

[hemsteadc]

Do you dry camp?

[D&J]

I have two Optima blue tops that replaced two smaller ones we had for 13 years, this set has been in use for 3 years, we don't have solar but I use a old 650 watt Honda to keep them charged when dry camping. You have to buy them from a dealer to get warranty, the cheap ones online are seconds and Optima won't warranty them it's called you get what you pay for. We bought ours at a boat shop close to our home base for less than what Optima's site list them for, I think they were $259 each.

https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/bluetop-dual-purpose-deep-cycle-and-starting/d31m

Denny

[oldjohnt]

Linda, I took a brief look at the batteries you listed and about the only thing I compared was the Amp Hour ratings as that's a MAJOR concern. In addition, you might take a look at FullRiver to add to your comparison shopping. An advantage of AGM over lead acid is less worry with venting hazardous fumes and the need to check and add electrolyte.

 Be advised its best to NOT draw those batteries down to over 50% of their rated capacity, meaning if you have say a 120 Amp Hour battery you shouldn't discharge it more then 60 Amp hours before re charging.

 As a working example say you have 160 and 130 watts of solar panels, and lets say (depends on sun and angle and intensity) you were exposed to decent sunlight for lets say 6 hours in a day, that's 290 watts at lets use 13.6 charging volts = 21 amps for 6 hours = or 126 Amp Hours of energy you might in theory (but subject to losses and inefficiency) harvest. THIS IS A ROUGH APPROXIMATION ONLY NOTTTTTTTTTTT ACCURATE !!!!!!!! In the real world its never that good lol, with 100 watts I seldom charged a whole lot more then 5/6 or so amps IE with 290 watts you could (depends on sun and angle and losses) charge at maybe 15 or more amps ????

 For dry camping you need enough solar energy harvest to supply your daytime loads PLUS replenish what you consumed overnight and I prefer to reach 100% SOC by early to mid morning if possible. You need enough stored battery energy so overnight you don't consume more then 50% of the capacity. In very rough terms if I was going to suggest any addition to your system and NOT knowing your loads, I would consider adding another battery (or a bigger one)  to try and get up near 200 Amp Hours of energy storage capacity

STILL THE 135 AMP HOUR BATTERY WILL "WORK" IT DEPENDS ON YOUR ENERGY USE AND CONDITIONS,,,, YOU NEED AN ENERGY AUDIT TO PROPERLY DESIGN A SYSTEM

If you're not going to dry camp very much the above  is far less relevant. Also if all you're running is small electronics and charging small electronics and maybe a small TV and LED lights and the most you use overnight is a vent fan and water pump occasionally and furnace in cold weather, a 135 Amp Hour battery will more then suffice. Heck you might not use up 10 to 20 Amp Hours overnight (subject to loads like a furnace or any Inverter powered 120 VAC appliances etc) so that battery and 290 solar watts may well be alllllllllllll you need !!!!!!!!!! Many get by on that light energy budget with an 85 Amp Hour battery and 100 solar watts...……….

I will let the battery experts weigh in on the batteries you selected for comparison....

PS I recently purchased some Renogy 12 AGM-200, Group Size 4D, 12 Volt 208 AH at the 20 Hr Rate, 129 lb batteries delivered and loaded into my car from Walmart for $247 each       yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

John T   Long retired n rusty engineer so NO warranty, consult trained experienced solar professionals and engineers is my advice...

 

[Chad Heiser]

If you are looking for batteries, check out Fullriver as well.  I have been using mine in my HDT and 5er for a while now and am very happy with them.  I also know quite a few other people who are using them and I haven't heard a single complaint yet.

[NDBirdman]

Would 2 of these 6V connected (12) ran through a 120-inverter run 2 CPAPs all night, fan running, occasional water pump and a nite light be a good set-up?  Both our CPAPs require 24v, that's why I'm thinking inverter for 120.  Having to run 4 of these batteries for 24v would not be great because of weight.

Right now when boondocking we just run our Honda 2200i but batteries might be quieter. 

2 would give 520ah.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Renogy-Deep-Cycle-Pure-GEL-Battery-6-Volt-260Ah/947445753

[Chad Heiser]

33 minutes ago, NDBirdman said:

Would 2 of these 6V connected (12) ran through a 120-inverter run 2 CPAPs all night, fan running, occasional water pump and a nite light be a good set-up?  Both our CPAPs require 24v, that's why I'm thinking inverter for 120.  Having to run 4 of these batteries for 24v would not be great because of weight.

Right now when boondocking we just run our Honda 2200i but batteries might be quieter. 

2 would give 520ah.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Renogy-Deep-Cycle-Pure-GEL-Battery-6-Volt-260Ah/947445753

It is possible, but we need more information to answer your question.  

What Inverter will you be using?  How much draw does the Inverter have by itself?  Will the Inverter be powering anything else?  If it is powering anything else, what will that draw be?

What state of charge will the batteries be at when you turn in for the night and start using the CPAP machines?  Will the batteries be powering anything else (are they dedicated just to the Inverter or are the the main RV house batteries)?  If the batteries are powering anything else, what will those other items draw throughout the night?

How much power do the CPAP machines draw on 120 volt?  A device like a Kil-A-Watt can give you this information over a normal nights usage.

With this information, we can give a definitive answer.

[oldjohnt]

1 hour ago, NDBirdman said:

Would 2 of these 6V connected (12) ran through a 120-inverter run 2 CPAPs all night, fan running, occasional water pump and a nite light be a good set-up?  Both our CPAPs require 24v, that's why I'm thinking inverter for 120.  Having to run 4 of these batteries for 24v would not be great because of weight.

Right now when boondocking we just run our Honda 2200i but batteries might be quieter. 

2 would give 520ah.

Birdman, those six volt Renogys are 260 Amp Hours HOWEVER if you used two in series to get 12 volts YOU STILL ONLY HAVE 260 AMP HOURS NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT 520 !!!!!!!!!

In series voltage is additive but NOT Amp Hours

If you have the battery capacity Id rather use them and an Inverter to run CPAP's all night versus running a Generator all that time BUT THATS YOUR CHOICE.

FWIW I use a single CPAP each night PLUS power a small dorm sized 120 VAC compressor type fridge 24/7 PLUS the occasional vent fans and water pump and the furnace when cold using three 12 Volt Renogy AGM's in parallel for 520 Amp Hours AND DONT DISCHARGE OVER 50% overnight.

The 12 Volt 200 Amp Hour Group Size 4D Renogy batteries I bought weight like 129 pounds !!!!!!!!!!!! If you wanted to go with 24 volts you could use two of the twelves in series to run 24 Volt DC CPAPS, but then charging could be an issue.

To compute how many battery amp hours you need to run two CPAP's all night plus your other small loads, you have to know the power consumption of the two CPAPs (and other loads) and for how many hours of use and ifffffffffffff you go to bed charged at 100% SOC its best NOT to consume over 50% of your rated battery capacity. That's not a hard computation once you know the CPAP current draw and how many hours you use them plus your other small loads.

That 520 Amp Hour figure you quoted (even though that's NOT what the two sixes in series yields) should run two CPAP's all night subject to their current draw and time and other loads.

PS a short time back I bought two of those Renogy 12 AGM-200 delivered to Walmart and loaded in my car for $247 when they were $399 on the Renogy website and now Walmart raised to $399  wooooooo hoooooooo I did good lol  

John T

[NDBirdman]

The CPAPs each say 4.5 amp hour, so 2 would be 9 but figure 10 to be on safe side?  I have a deep cycle with 120ah that runs the camper just fine.  So I could throw 2 more in, leave apart from the camper for CPAP use only.  I have not bought an inverter yet as waiting to figure out what I'm going to do in the end.  If I buy 2 of those Renogy 12 AGM-200 for CPAPs only, a small inverter should not draw much.  I sleep with mine about 8 hrs a day, wife usually hits about 7 and up.  For sngs, say 8 each, 16 total so would need 160 plus inverter loss.  2 of those 200s is 400 (?) so we would be good?  Then carry a suitcase style solar charger, we would be good to go?  I'm not wanting to install panels on the roof as we will probably part with this camper next year, 2 at the most.

[NDBirdman]

1 hour ago, Chad Heiser said:

 A device like a Kil-A-Watt can give you this information over a normal nights usage.

Thanks, I'll check that out.

[LindaH]

6 hours ago, hemsteadc said:

Do you dry camp?

Yes, about 95% of the time.

[LindaH]

5 hours ago, D&J said:

 

https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/bluetop-dual-purpose-deep-cycle-and-starting/d31m

 

What does "dual-purpose" mean? We don't need a starting battery.  And this particular battery has too low of amp hours...it's lower than our current AGM batteries which are 80 Ah (which is why we're looking for new ones).

[Jaydrvr]

8 minutes ago, LindaH said:

What does "dual-purpose" mean? We don't need a starting battery.  And this particular battery has too low of amp hours...it's lower than our current AGM batteries which are 80 Ah (which is why we're looking for new ones).

Unfortunately, in this case dual purpose means it doesn't really perform well as a deep cycle battery. A true deep cycle battery has thicker plates to withstand longer and deeper discharge-charge cycles. If you need deep cycle batteries, you're most likely much better off with a dedicated, purpose built, deep cycle battery. Jay

[D&J]

51 minutes ago, LindaH said:

What does "dual-purpose" mean? We don't need a starting battery.  And this particular battery has too low of amp hours...it's lower than our current AGM batteries which are 80 Ah (which is why we're looking for new ones).

Dual purpose is for marine starting mostly for outboards so the cranking amps are low. They are used a lot in marine for trolling motors because when they discharge they hold voltage longer and have a faster recharge time when compared to flooded cells.

Denny 

[Chad Heiser]

3 hours ago, NDBirdman said:

The CPAPs each say 4.5 amp hour, so 2 would be 9 but figure 10 to be on safe side?  I have a deep cycle with 120ah that runs the camper just fine.  So I could throw 2 more in, leave apart from the camper for CPAP use only.  I have not bought an inverter yet as waiting to figure out what I'm going to do in the end.  If I buy 2 of those Renogy 12 AGM-200 for CPAPs only, a small inverter should not draw much.  I sleep with mine about 8 hrs a day, wife usually hits about 7 and up.  For sngs, say 8 each, 16 total so would need 160 plus inverter loss.  2 of those 200s is 400 (?) so we would be good?  Then carry a suitcase style solar charger, we would be good to go?  I'm not wanting to install panels on the roof as we will probably part with this camper next year, 2 at the most.

First off, sorry to LindaH for hijacking the thread, but here goes. 

Assuming the CPAPS actually draw the rated 4.5 amp hours for 16 total hours (2 x 8), your looking at a minimum of 144 amp hours drawn from the batteries.  If you have 400 total amp hours in the bank, then really only 200 amp hours are available for use.  You never want to draw the batteries down below 50% state of charge (a typical cycle - a battery is only good for so many cycles over its lifetime).  I personally don't like to go below 60% state of charge (this helps extend the batteries life cycles).  That gives you 160 amp hours available to go down to 60% state of charge.  The inverter will most likely have more than 16 amp hours of overhead over an 8 hour period.  I'm thinking a typical draw of about 5 amp hours for just turning a smallish inverter on, so another 40 amp hours over 8 hours.  This means you would be discharging below 60% but stay right at about 50% depending on the inverter.  That is pretty hard usage on those batteries if this is done on a daily basis.  The batteries will also have to be back to 100% state of charge every day before you go to sleep just to give you the minimum power you will need.

Using a Kil-A-Watt over a few nights to get an actual average power usage may show that your CPAPS use less power than the full rating, which may make it more manageable with 400 amp hours of battery capacity.

 

[NDBirdman]

Thanks for the info.  I'll get that meter and run it a few nights on mine, then on my wife's CPAP.  If I have to throw in another battery, so be it, I'll get r done.  My apologies for hijacking the thread, party on ya'll!

[Lance A Lott]

You can use a series parallel switch to go from 12v to 24v I am not sure if they are continuous duty or not I think Serplus supply has them.

Both my parents use cpaps I will try to ask them what they do.  I know some can bemused onn12 volts.

[oldjohnt]

2 hours ago, LindaH said:

What does "dual-purpose" mean? We don't need a starting battery.  And this particular battery has too low of amp hours...it's lower than our current AGM batteries which are 80 Ah (which is why we're looking for new ones).

Linda, the so called RV/Marine batteries like sold at Walmart are also known as Dual Purpose, the dual being the capacity to start perhaps a big marine engine then also run a trolling motor which is a more typical low current long time period use best suited for a deep cycle battery. They are NOT full true Deep Cycle batteries such as golf cart batteries. For RV use I highly recommend a full true deep cycle battery NOT a semi deep cycle or dual purpose or RV/Marine battery.

The 135 Amp Hour AGM batteries you're looking at will suit your dry camping needs much better. That coupled with your 290 solar watts may well fit for small electronics and small electronics charging and computer use. 

 John T  

[oldjohnt]

4 hours ago, NDBirdman said:

The CPAPs each say 4.5 amp hour, so 2 would be 9 but figure 10 to be on safe side?  I have a deep cycle with 120ah that runs the camper just fine.  So I could throw 2 more in, leave apart from the camper for CPAP use only.  I have not bought an inverter yet as waiting to figure out what I'm going to do in the end.  If I buy 2 of those Renogy 12 AGM-200 for CPAPs only, a small inverter should not draw much.  I sleep with mine about 8 hrs a day, wife usually hits about 7 and up.  For sngs, say 8 each, 16 total so would need 160 plus inverter loss.  2 of those 200s is 400 (?) so we would be good?  Then carry a suitcase style solar charger, we would be good to go?  I'm not wanting to install panels on the roof as we will probably part with this camper next year, 2 at the most.

Birdman, here goes, let me first explain a few electrical and energy terms and then we can proceed:

1) That 4.5 "Amp hour" as you cited it is a measure of "ENERGY" NOT current draw, and the electrical term "Amp Hours" means exactly what it says    IE    X amps are drawn for X Hours ( Amps is a measure of current flow while "Amp Hours" is a measure of current flow for X hours of time, got it?? Does it say 4.5 "amp hours" as you posted ORRRRRRRR or does it say 4.5 amps??????????????? 

2) You mentioned a 24 volt CPAP, so is that 4.5 figure you spoke of at 24 VDC or is it 120 VAC ???at  If it actually draws 4.5 amps at what voltage is that????? The term you posted of 4.5 "amp hour" isn't adequate without knowing the current at what voltage and for how long !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See if it says anything about Watts or just Amps???

3) To size how much battery capacity is required to power two of those CPAPs overnight, you need to know 1) How much current they draw 2) At what voltage and then 3) For how long you use them.

4) Now lets talk about Battery capacity and Inverters.

    a) First compute the current draw of each CPAP at what voltage and how long they are used. Better yet tell me the Watts or amps and volts etc and I will be glad to do it for you

    b)  Convert that overnight ENERGY use to Amp Hours of ENERGY at 12 VDC so you can figure how many battery amp hours are required so as to NOT consume over 50% of their rated capacity.

   c) Once you have all that info I can size your battery bank and Inverter

I know my 120 VAC compressor fridge draws MORE then my ResMed CPAP and I run the fridge 24/7 PLUS the CPAP each night and when I only had two of those Renogy 12AGM-200 in parallel for 400 amp hours of energy storage at 12 VDC I never drew down more then 50%

BOTTOM LINE If you tell me how many amps those CPAPs actually draw at what voltage (or the watts) and how long you usethem I will be glad to tell you how many battery amps hours you need and size your Inverter...…..Then if needed I can size a solar system............….

Again remember   Amp Hours is ENERGY,,,,,,,,Amps is current flow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I need to have the correct figures

John T   Retired Electrical Engineer

 

 

[oldjohnt]

PS I cant believe your CPAP draws 4.5 amps at 120 VAC, that's 540 watts  My ResMed CPAP isn't anywhere near that much...…….If it drew 4.5 amps at 24 VDC that's only 108 watts much more in line......….If it drew 4.5 amps at 12 VDC that's only 54 watts which sounds too small...…. I HAVE TO KNOW ITS WATTS OR VOLTS AND THE CORRECT NUMBER TO PROCEED 

John T   Retired Electrical Engineer

[oldjohnt]

PS 2, the CPAP power depends on 1) The Pressure setting (mines 10) ,,,,,,,,2) The Humidity setting (mines 4),,,,,,,,,,,3) The Heat setting (mines 67 degrees),,,,,,,,,so absent a Kill A Watt reading there's no way to know its actual load.

As a PURE GUESS based on my own CPAP experience if they were say 125 Watts each then 200 Battery Amp Hours isn't going to cut it while 400 Battery Amp Hours likely will "work" subject to several variables. My CPAP and 120 VAC Compressor Fridge performed fine when I had 400 Battery Amp Hours. I now have 520 Amp Hours and its no problem.

John T     Best I have to offer absent any real numbers, sorry

[Al F]

If you turn off the humidifier and any heater for the hose, you will find the CPAP only draws 1-2 amps of 12V DC power.  

My wife uses a CPAP every night and just leaves the humidifier off. Her CPAP draws about 1amp, or about 8 amp hours each night. 

I know some folks say they cannot tolerate the CPAP w/o the humidifier sooooo those will need lots more battery capacity.

[oldjohnt]

19 minutes ago, Al F said:

I know some folks say they cannot tolerate the CPAP w/o the humidifier sooooo those will need lots more battery capacity.

Mornin Al, if I don't inject at least some humidity (mines set relatively low) into my CPAP mask I have "dry mouth" something awful in the morning and feel like I have been licking pool table tops all night lol. You are right on, if you use more heat and more humidity and run at higher pressures the CPAP requires more power.

John T  Currently parked in Fort Pierce Florida at Savannas Recreation Area  Best Wishes n God Bless all 

[Al F]

7 minutes ago, oldjohnt said:

Mornin Al, if I don't inject at least some humidity (mines set relatively low) into my CPAP mask I have "dry mouth" something awful in the morning and feel like I have been licking pool table tops all night lol. You are right on, if you use more heat and more humidity and run at higher pressures the CPAP requires more power.

John T  Currently parked in Fort Pierce Florida at Savannas Recreation Area  Best Wishes n God Bless all 

It could be my wife doesn't have the problem you have because she uses the nose only mask.  

[LindaH]

15 hours ago, Jaydrvr said:

Unfortunately, in this case dual purpose means it doesn't really perform well as a deep cycle battery. A true deep cycle battery has thicker plates to withstand longer and deeper discharge-charge cycles. If you need deep cycle batteries, you're most likely much better off with a dedicated, purpose built, deep cycle battery. Jay

 

14 hours ago, D&J said:

Dual purpose is for marine starting mostly for outboards so the cranking amps are low. They are used a lot in marine for trolling motors because when they discharge they hold voltage longer and have a faster recharge time when compared to flooded cells.

Denny 

I suspected as much, which is why I've ignored all batteries in my search that said "dual purpose" or said something about "starting/cranking."