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We were recently at a very nice Chinese restaurant and watched a middle-aged couple come in. The women was holding a little puffball of a dog and set it in the booth beside. I could hear the waiter ask if it was a service dog to which she immediately answered yes. And that was that...

Legitimate or not? Hard to say. But it certainly adds to my concerns regarding the entire program. 

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On 1/29/2019 at 4:04 PM, mptjelgin said:

1. Do you think that the law is working well as written?  That is, are the two specific questions that you are allowed to ask by the ADA guidelines enough to prevent abuse, if the businesses/entities actually asked them?

No, I don't think the law works well.  But the idea behind the ADA is that disabled people are entitled to the same access as everybody else, and therefore shouldn't have to carry credentials.  Added to that is the concern about privacy (why you can't ask what a person's disability is).  But on that note, I think that anyone who uses Facebook has voluntarily relinquished any claim to privacy, and should be treated accordingly.

But I would imagine that with as bad as it's gotten, disability advocates might agree to some sort of licensing.  The problem then becomes the mechanism for the licensing, which presumably would be a governmental function, and given how government is currently being dismantled, I don't see much hope for establishment of a new licensing function.

 

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2. Along these lines, if I ask the two questions and get the following answers, what am I supposed to do:

  • Me: Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability?  Response: Yes
  • Me: What work or task has the dog been trained to perform?  Response: My dog provides me support when my condition manifests itself. 

Ok, now what?  The law specifically states that the individual cannot be asked for any documentation on the dog, asked that the dog demonstrate its task, or be asked for any information regarding the nature of their disability. Any reasonable follow-up to the vague response above would seem to creep into one of those three "can't ask" areas. 

I presented an intentionally vague answer along the lines of what I think someone who is gaming the system might say. But as I read the ADA documentation, there is essentially nothing that can be done beyond asking the two questions and accepting whatever answer you get. 

I don't agree that you have to accept whatever answer you get because the law says a person can be asked what tasks the dog performs, and the answer you posited ("My dog provides me support when my condition manifests itself") doesn't answer the question that I am allowed to ask.  So if I were in that situation, I would ask:  "What tasks has the dog been trained to perform?"

In fact, I would probably push it just a little if I thought the person was particularly bogus, and ask, "What tasks has the dog been trained to perform that compensate for your disability?"  Note that I still haven't asked what the disability is.

And actually, I found out that how I would handle the "None of your business" (mentioned upthread) was pretty much exactly upheld in a Delaware Supreme Court decision, so I think I'm on the right track.

And everyone, please note:  There is the ADA, on the federal level, as well as state laws, which might be different from the ADA (like they might allow animals other than dogs or miniature horses to be service animals).

 

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I am aware that any type of documentation can be forged, but once someone does that there is at least a paper trail and a basis for prosecution.

I haven't researched it thoroughly, but it's my impression that falsely claiming to be disabled or entitled to use a service dog is an offense in only about half the states.  And I'd be shocked if it's a high priority item in the prosecutor's office.  (Although I think a few well publicized prosecutions, in states that have harsher punishments, would be an excellent use of taxpayers' money.)

Also, as for fear of lawsuits, my understanding is that if a person sues a business for an ADA violation relating to service dogs, he isn't entitled to any money damages; his only remedy is injunctive relief (i.e., the business is forced to let the plaintiff bring the dog in). 

 

On 1/29/2019 at 5:57 PM, Jaydrvr said:

Home Depot is one thing..but any place that serves or sells food is not a place I need to see live animals. That is truly gross and gives me the sense that all the food there is contaminated. End result - I go out less and less. There are no dogs at Amazon. Jay

Have you seen a lot of animals in restaurants?  Health codes generally prohibit animals in areas where food is prepared (except service animals, of course).  That's why some restaurants will allow pets on outdoor patios, but not inside.  Again--absent any laws prohibiting it otherwise (like health codes), businesses can allow animals anywhere they want. 

 

On 1/29/2019 at 6:17 PM, Jaydrvr said:

I recently stayed in a new and quite expensive hotel and was rudely awakened at 5:00 a.m. by barking dogs in the hallway. I rather doubt that person in the room directly across the hall was disabled and needed a support animal --- and I'll never stay there again.

In the interest of fairness, you should probably find out if the hotel has a policy that allows pets.  If that's the case, then by all means blame the barking dogs on the hotel.  But if it doesn't, and allows service dogs because it's required to by law, then it's not really the hotel's fault.  Unless, of course, it does a terrible job, like many businesses, of applying the law correctly. 

What's interesting is that hotels can't designate certain rooms for people with service dogs.  But if they allow pets, or don't allow pets but choose to allow emotional support animals, there's nothing prohibiting the hotel from designating certain rooms for them, or from charging for the animal (you can't charge extra for service dogs).  And if the hotel is choosing to allow animals other than service dogs, if those animals bother other guests, then those guests have every right to complain.  (And actually, if a service dog is being unruly, the business can kick it out.  But that almost never happens with real service dogs.  And in fact one of the "tells" that an animal isn't a real service dog is if it's not perfectly behaved.)

But don't be confused--the Fair Housing Act and the Air Carrier Access Act provide protection for emotional support animals in dwellings (not temporary lodging) and airplanes, respectively.  That's one reason everything is so muddy--people can legitimately have an animal in no-pets-allowed housing if it's a service animal OR it's an emotional support animal.  Same for airlines.  But nowhere else is an emotional support animal required to be accommodated.  (Like the hotel--if they allow emotional support animals, it's because they want to; there's no law requiring them to do it.)

And people don't realize the the housing and airplane accommodation is different from the rules relating to service dogs, and once they find out they can fly with their pet on their lap or have it in no-pets-allowed housing if they just get a letter prescribing it, then they think they can take the pet anywhere.  That's why it's so important for people who know better to challenge them when they try it.  It could be that they're actually unaware that what they're doing is wrong, especially if they just heard they could get certification to take the pet on a plane, and don't do any further research.  Asking the allowed questions could actually educate these people.

Then again, there are those who know full well what they're doing, and frankly, you can't do anything about it.  If a person is willing to lie about a disability in a way that answers the two questions satisfactorily, then yes, they'll get to take their dog with them.  But there's absolutely no reason to make it easy on them.

People with a legitimate disability and a trained service dog that performs tasks related to that disability should expect to be asked those questions, and should have a particular answer at the ready if they're reluctant to identify the disability.  And these days, with fake service dogs making their lives harder, they'd probably welcome the hassle if it meant less abuse of the system.

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After reading your long post I did find some incorrect information. I have stayed in many hotels with my service dog. Hotels do have disabled access rooms. They have handles on the wall in the bathroom near the toilet and handles in the shower. These rooms are available for the disabled and their service dog. By law all hotels must have handicapped access rooms and handicapped parking. Some hotels ( La Quinta is one) even advertise that they are dog friendly. Any dog not just a service dog. Also if a service dog misbehaves or is unruly per the ADA the hotel (or any business) can ask the disabled party to leave. 

As far as airlines, each airline has its own rules. I do not fly but choose to travel in my RV. Once when I tried to book a flight (Southwest Airlines) I was advised that I could not book online but had to call the airline directly and book my flight at least 30 days in advance. The airline stated that they would only allow one dog at a time on the plane. 

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Also as far as restaurants, a service dog is allowed anywhere that the general public can go. If the general public is not allowed in the kitchen then neighter is the service dog allowed to go. As far as being unhealthy for a dog to bein the general area of a restaurant, if the general public is in the general area then a service dog does not make it any more unhealthy. I always make sure my dog takes care of it’s business before I enter any business. Even service dogs that are trained to hold it can only hold it for so long. It is the owners responsibility to ensure that their service dog is well behaved including its bathroom needs. 

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Reminds me of something funny.  We had one of our dogs with us on a restaurant patio.  Someone walked over and asked if he was a service dog.  I said no.  He said "ok" and walked away.  Leaving me completely confused.

 

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8 hours ago, Twotoes said:

It is the owners responsibility to ensure that their service dog is well behaved including its bathroom needs. 

And also to use good judgment about where they take the dog. 

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8 hours ago, Twotoes said:

Also as far as restaurants, a service dog is allowed anywhere that the general public can go. If the general public is not allowed in the kitchen then neighter is the service dog allowed to go. As far as being unhealthy for a dog to bein the general area of a restaurant, if the general public is in the general area then a service dog does not make it any more unhealthy. I always make sure my dog takes care of it’s business before I enter any business. Even service dogs that are trained to hold it can only hold it for so long. It is the owners responsibility to ensure that their service dog is well behaved including its bathroom needs. 

Since most of us are "older" folks on here I think it is safe to say many of us have at one time or another owned dogs.  I would argue that dogs sitting in restaurants on benches/seats were other customers will have to sit is a more unhealthy practice.  Dogs spend part of their day walking in grass and seeking out areas where other dogs have urinated so they can urinate over the top of that scent.  Dogs spend part of their day licking some parts of their body that we can't reach and wouldn't want to.  When two dogs greet each other they often times like to smell or even lick each others butt.  These are all general habits that you do not see people doing prior to entering a eating establishment and sitting down.  

A real service dog should be allowed in a restaurant.  It should be kept on the floor next to the disabled person.  But I have a huge issue with these dogs being allowed on seat and benches where other customers have to sit.

Not to change the subject Twotoes, but this is like trying to figure out the last word of a cross word puzzle.  How does your service dog assist you and how did you qualify for one?  Please educate me.  A response of "how dare you ask me that" is not an answer.

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My dogs are NEVER in grass, ever.  They are also not allowed to lick other dogs.  They don't roam around looking for dog urine.

I do find it weird that Twotoes refuses to educate people on his service dog's skills.

 

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1 hour ago, FL-JOE said:

Not to change the subject Twotoes, but this is like trying to figure out the last word of a cross word puzzle.  How does your service dog assist you and how did you qualify for one?  Please educate me.  A response of "how dare you ask me that" is not an answer.

I can't say that this relates to Twotoes issue, but we have a friend that lost parts of both feet, including most of his toes, to frostbite. He has a wonderful Mastiff service dog that helps him maintain his balance when walking and also picks up items he drops.

"Balance dogs are specially trained service dogs that assist individuals who have a disability that interferes with their ability to walk. With the support of a balance dog, a person can more freely interact with their environment and other people. Wearing a specially designed harness, balance dogs support their partners by acting as a counterbalance to assist their partners to walk."

https://www.keystonehumanservices.org/susquehanna-service-dogs/balance-dogs.php

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12 hours ago, Twotoes said:

After reading your long post I did find some incorrect information. I have stayed in many hotels with my service dog. Hotels do have disabled access rooms. They have handles on the wall in the bathroom near the toilet and handles in the shower. These rooms are available for the disabled and their service dog. By law all hotels must have handicapped access rooms and handicapped parking.

If a person with a service dog doesn't need/want accessibility features in a room, the hotel can't limit him to one of those rooms--he has the same right as anyone else to stay in any room in the hotel, with his dog.

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Howdy All,

As one who has had a service dog for many years and to folks who don't have a clue as to what my disability is they would question my need for such and animal.  I have sever PTSD, and have been since 1996 100% service connected disabled through the va.  For me being in close proximity to large groups of people for example is difficult for me, being in a confined area with no easy exit such as most business's places is difficult for me, being around a lot of loud talking, noisy, boisterous people is very difficult for me, sometimes in such circumstances I can become agitated which could lead to other problems.  I also don't hear well.  Thus my need for a service dog who is trained to paw on my leg when he senses that I may be becoming uncomfortable in my surroundings and its time for me to work on calming down or to leave.  He also keeps me grounded in the here and now, because I have to attend to his needs and his constant companionship I am aware of where I am NOW rather then drifting off to where I was years ago and the problems that sometimes causes.

I like many others don't have thousands of dollars or time to wait for years to be provided with some special breed or certifiably trained service dog, the ADA was written with this in mind, my present dog and his predecessors were trained to help me in a way that allows me to more fully participate in what is considered normal life.  For example, many who have attended the National HDT Rally have met my service dog, I could never attend such an event without him, just to much going on in often times confined areas for me to be at ease enough to enjoy and participate with out him.

Another misconception is that a service dog has to be a particular breed or size, this is not true.  My service dog is a Dachshund, I travel a lot, I need a small easy to care for dog who can go anywhere with out taking up a lot of space or be intimidating to other people.  Most service dogs are not to be petted or paid attention to by people other then the one for whom they are working, in my particular case my dog helps me to interact with other people, everyone likes a wiener dog and often times ask if they can pet him for ME this works well as it opens the door to conversation I would otherwise shy away from, part of my dogs job is to help me interact with others so I am not so isolated.

When it comes to restaurants, my dog unless someone sees him come in with me will never even know he is there.  I make sure that he has had time to relive himself BEFORE entering the restaurant, he is trained to walk right beside me and to immediately go under the table where he will sit QUIETLY until we leave.  If I am with others and we will be spending time eating our meal I will ask the waiter to bring a small bowl of water for the dog which will be placed on the floor under the table.  My dog does NOT beg at the table, he has been trained to sit quietly and knows that he will be given a treat AFTER we leave from the restaurant.

I know as well as you folks do that there are some who ABUSE the law as it is written but before you start pushing for more regulations and certifications, put yourself in my  place, do you have thousands of dollars to spend on a special dog, do you have many months or years to wait for a dog or do you need HELP now?  I have tried to work with the va for years to get a certified service dog its damned near impossible especially for someone my age, I'll be 71 in a couple of months.  So PLEASE do us who need a service dog a favor if you see someone with a well behaved dog give them the benefit of the doubt, leave them alone and go on about your life, if you see someone with a bad behaving dog you have every right to ask who ever is in charge to ask the person who has the bad behaving dog to leave.

Thank you.

Dave

Edited by mr. cob
cuz i cant sqel

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Thank you mr. cob for your post.  Your first paragraph describes me almost to a T.  Perhaps, I should have filed for disability through the VA.  I am glad to hear all that your dog does for you, and that you are able to continue to participate in society.

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That is very similar to my friend with PTSD, although his dogs lean against him, instead of pawing.  Same idea.

After doing some research on this topic early this morning, Google then presented me with a suggested site that will take your money to "register" your random dog as a service dog and "guarantee" that you can take him anywhere.  I reported it as a scam to Google.

 

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Very good post Mr Cob. My dog does the same thing when in a restaurant. She is trained to go under the table and not beg for food. She is a rescue dog that I home schooled because I could not afford to purchase one. The ADA doesn’t require a certificate. I believe that the ADA changed the rules and a emotional support dog is no longer considered a support dog but because of your hearing loss which is a physical disability your dog still qualifies. 

As far as why I need a service dog as some have asked, and the ADA does not require that I disclose, it should be evident from my name TwoToes,. Actually the last two have been amputated too and now I have no toes on my right foot. It took me a year of physical therapy to walk again and my dog helped me learn to balance. She also has a handle on her vest that if I do fall I can grab to get back up.  It has been almost 10years now and I walk pretty good on pavement but grass or sand is still a challenge. 

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4 minutes ago, Twotoes said:

and the ADA does not require that I disclose

 

We're friends here.  I'm certain everyone asked with empathy, not to grill you about it.

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Carrying a chip about your disability does not help relations with the able community. Some people simply do not know and wish to learn. My blind daughter visits two elementary schools in her neighborhood to help in educating children since very few have ever known a totally blind person. She also has a friend who takes a hearing dog to the same classrooms. In fact, that was how they became friends. 

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Thanks for the various replies on this thread. I've certainly learned a lot about Service Dogs and the ADA rules associated with them.

One thing that I hadn't understood is that service dogs can be "home-schooled" and may not have come through any specific program or certification process. I had assumed that was one of the (and perhaps the biggest) differences between a Service Dog and an Emotional Support Animal. 

So it comes down to "Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability?" vs. an Emotional Support Animal that is required because of ???

So my thought that a certification for Service Dogs would be a good path to solving some of the issues seems to falter a bit. I had assumed that there would be pre-existing documentation in place already, but that doesn't seem to be a given. 

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28 minutes ago, mptjelgin said:

Thanks for the various replies on this thread. I've certainly learned a lot about Service Dogs and the ADA rules associated with them.

One thing that I hadn't understood is that service dogs can be "home-schooled" and may not have come through any specific program or certification process. I had assumed that was one of the (and perhaps the biggest) differences between a Service Dog and an Emotional Support Animal. 

So it comes down to "Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability?" vs. an Emotional Support Animal that is required because of ???

So my thought that a certification for Service Dogs would be a good path to solving some of the issues seems to falter a bit. I had assumed that there would be pre-existing documentation in place already, but that doesn't seem to be a given. 

Howdy Mark,

As I stated before, the ADA was written in the manner it is written as not everyone has the funds or the time to go through some accredited agency to acquire a service dog.  A service dog, provides a service, an emotional support animal provides comfort, I think that would be a very simple way of explaining it.  If the law is changed so that the only dogs that are accepted as service dogs are ones that are trained by some official agency or approved business, how in the heck are some folks who aren't financially well off or can't wait many months or in some cases years for an "approved" service dog supposed to get or have one?  That is a very legitimate question. 

When I first heard of service dogs for vets with PTSD I asked through all the various va channels to have one provided to me, if you have ever dealt with the va you can only imagine how frustrating it can be to get someone, anyone to even acknowledge your request let alone provide you with the information you need in order to pursue the process.  When I first asked back in 1996 I was told that the good of a service dog for folks with PTSD had not been determined to be of any real benefit, so I got along without one.  Later another vet who was in my vets group told of how the law as it was written did NOT require that a dog be trained or provided by an agency and that a person could train their own dog or work with someone who could help them train the dog to provide the service that was needed.

So I as many others have for years trained or had help training our own service dog.  Right now I am in a bind as I don't have little Newt's replacement in training as I now only have Newt.  My first service dog, little Schultz was trained and he helped train his replacement little Spot.  Spot trained Newt my present dog, Spot crossed the Rainbow Bridge two and a half years ago, Newt is now 11 years old I need to find another little Doxie who needs a good home, so far I have not been successful in trying to rescue a dog as I have in the past.  I have never bought a dog but I may have to if I don't find one soon.  There is a lot more to a service dog then what meets the eye of the casual beholder but for those who need them they are a life changing partner.

Dave

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Hi Dave-

Thanks for the additional information. Very informative. 

BTW - Our last two dogs were rescue Dachshunds and I have real soft spot for that breed. Good luck finding the next generation!

Mark

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2 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

Hi Dave-

Thanks for the additional information. Very informative. 

BTW - Our last two dogs were rescue Dachshunds and I have real soft spot for that breed. Good luck finding the next generation!

Mark

Howdy Mark,

If you happen to hear of a young, male wiener dog who needs a good home, please contact me.

Dave

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This evening, Dollymamma and I had dinner with Mr. Cob and his bride and having been around Newt and seeing the effect that dog has with Dave is really stunning. 

On the way to dinner Dave mentioned the sadness that he has when he sees someone "gaming" service-dog rules and the sad and harmful effects that folks that game the system with fake-service-dogs.

Over thirty years ago my young twin daughters were puppy-raisers for Guide Dogs for the Blind (GDB) of San Rafael, California.

Over two thousand puppy-raisers are a key part of the GDB program and these young people are charged with care and socializing so vital in giving these young dogs the start in life that is the basis of what will likely be the most amazing help that many blind people will ever have to be able to lead a active life.........more than life changing....... it often is life itself.

Perhaps it might be appropriate at this point to consider the stated view of fake-service-dogs as stated by GDB:

 

Q: What is GDB's position on fraudulent service dogs?

Guide Dogs for the Blind does not agree with, nor does it support the training or use of fraudulent service dogs. Personal testimonies from many of our clients demonstrate that fraudulent service dogs pose a variety of challenges for people with disabilities who travel with properly trained service dogs. Some of these challenges include safety, health, and dog attack risks, as well as the erosion of the positive image of a formally trained service dog in the eyes of business owners and the public. Fraudulent service dogs pose a fundamental threat to the access, independence, and mobility that service dogs enable.

Guide Dogs for the Blind is aware of the hazards and complications fraudulent service dogs pose to an officially designated working dog. A “fraudulent service dog,” is any dog that is not formally trained to perform a specific service to assist a person with a disability. The three major laws that give access to a service dog and a person with a disability are the Americans with Disabilities Act; Fair Housing Act; and The Air Carrier Access Act. There is a lack of consistency between these major pieces of legislation, which provides incentives for people to train and use fraudulent service dogs. There is no established federal or state administrative body to set and enforce rules pertaining to service dog regulations.

Drive on..........(Be careful........how much is too much to "game" the "system" folks.......)

 

 

Edited by Dollytrolley

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6 hours ago, Dollytrolley said:

Over thirty years ago my young twin daughters were puppy-raisers for Guide Dogs for the Blind (GDB) of San Rafael, California.

All 3 of our daughter's guide dogs have come from GDB, 2 from San Rafael and 1 from Portland. The latest is nearing retirement age. 

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18 hours ago, Twotoes said:

Very good post Mr Cob. My dog does the same thing when in a restaurant. She is trained to go under the table and not beg for food. She is a rescue dog that I home schooled because I could not afford to purchase one. The ADA doesn’t require a certificate. I believe that the ADA changed the rules and a emotional support dog is no longer considered a support dog but because of your hearing loss which is a physical disability your dog still qualifies.

By saying "still" qualifies, it sounds like you're saying that someone with an emotional support dog realizes it doesn't qualify as a service dog, he can deem it a service dog anyway if he has any physical disability.  That's not the case.  In order for a dog to be considered a service dog for someone with hearing loss, the dog has to be trained to perform tasks that compensate for the hearing loss. 

mr. cob said that he has trouble being around loud talking and noisy people, but also that he doesn't hear well.  I don't see what training a dog could have that would compensate for his not hearing well. 

He said his dog is trained to react to PTSD-inducing situations.  He doesn't need to rely on a physical disability "loophole" for it to be considered a service dog.

 

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As far as why I need a service dog as some have asked, and the ADA does not require that I disclose,

The thing is, you did disclose it, without anybody even asking.  The question that you found offensive was what tasks the dog had been trained to perform--not what your disability was. 

 

16 hours ago, mr. cob said:

A service dog, provides a service, an emotional support animal provides comfort, I think that would be a very simple way of explaining it. 

One way to look at it is service dogs are trained to recognize and respond in a way a person can't do himself.  Like a diabetes dog--it can detect by scent if its handler's blood sugar levels have gone wonky ("recognize") and alert the person to the condition ("respond").  Or a seizure dog for a kid can see the kid's having a seizure ("recognize") and alert family members ("respond").  That's where the training comes in, and training has to be something that a dog doesn't naturally do, like make its owner feel less anxious when in public.

That's why asking what tasks an alleged service dog has been trained to perform can be quite useful, and it's clear that "he calms my anxiety" doesn't cut it.

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1 minute ago, Blues said:

That's why asking what tasks an alleged service dog has been trained to perform can be quite useful, and it's clear that "he calms my anxiety" doesn't cut it.

Which one is it for my friend with PTSD, and a dog that leans up against his leg or body if the dog senses anxiety?  At what point do we draw the line?  I don't know, I think it's complicated.  As well as abused by cretins who just want their pet with them.

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Howdy All,

 I won’t dwell on it but believe me, PTSD is a whole lot more then anxiety even in its attack form.  A dog trained to sense and respond to it’s partners PTSD reactions is dealing with more then anxiety.

PTSD has emotional and physical manifestations, sometimes one brings on the other it depends on the situation and the setting.  A good service dog can dramatically reduce the severity of the reaction felt by its partner.

 I always refer to my dog as a partner, I do not own him I share my life with him.

Dave

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