Service Dogs?

[FL-JOE]

I spent a whole career dealing with stupid people doing stupid stuff.  There is really nothing that shocks or surprises me.  I wish there was police body cams starting back in the 70's so I could have proof of some of the stupid stuff people do and say.  

[Blues]

On 1/17/2019 at 10:42 PM, Twotoes said:

I am disabled and have a service dog. You can not tell from my appearance that I am handicapped. The Americans With a Disabilaty Act was changed a few years ago. The law as I understand it says that the animal MUST be a dog. No monkeys, birds, horses etc.  Also the disabled person must have a physical handicap. I am a partial amputee, no toes on my right foot. 

So this got me wondering--what tasks related to having no toes on someone's foot does a service dog perform?

[vermilye]

I have no problem with service dogs that are actually used for that purpose, but I don't think much of some of the examples I've seen.  For example, I have a neighbor here at the Q that has a 100 pound + German Shepard with a Service Dog vest.  Since I travel alone, he suggested that I get a dog.  I mentioned that I spend lots of time hiking in the National Parks where dogs are not allowed on the trails.  His answer - That's why you put a Service Dog vest on the dog.  You can take it anywhere!

[Carlos]

Wait, what?  Seriously, you can't take a dog for a walk in a national park?  If that's true, thanks for the warning, I'll scratch a couple of planned stops off my list.

 

[chirakawa]

8 minutes ago, Carlos said:

Wait, what?  Seriously, you can't take a dog for a walk in a national park?  If that's true, thanks for the warning, I'll scratch a couple of planned stops off my list.

 

That's not what he said.

[2gypsies]

For the most part, dogs are not allowed on national park trails..... but there are exceptions. You need to get the information for each park's web site.... LOTS of good information.  For instance, at Grand Canyon South Rim dogs are allowed on the Rim Trail.

[Carlos]

Thanks, never crossed my mind that it would be a problem, I'll start looking.

 

[trailertraveler]

18 minutes ago, 2gypsies said:

For the most part, dogs are not allowed on national park trails

It is not just National Parks. There are some State Park and Forest campgrounds that do not allow pets at all even in campgrounds. Some allow pets only in designated sites. There are some private campgrounds that do not allow dogs or have restrictions on the size, breed, and or number.

[pjstough]

3 hours ago, vermilye said:

I have no problem with service dogs that are actually used for that purpose, but I don't think much of some of the examples I've seen.  For example, I have a neighbor here at the Q that has a 100 pound + German Shepard with a Service Dog vest.  Since I travel alone, he suggested that I get a dog.  I mentioned that I spend lots of time hiking in the National Parks where dogs are not allowed on the trails.  His answer - That's why you put a Service Dog vest on the dog.  You can take it anywhere!

When I see posts like this, I think of one of Paul Harvey's sayings, "Self government without self discipline wont work".

[mptjelgin]

5 hours ago, vermilye said:

I have no problem with service dogs that are actually used for that purpose, but I don't think much of some of the examples I've seen.  For example, I have a neighbor here at the Q that has a 100 pound + German Shepard with a Service Dog vest.  Since I travel alone, he suggested that I get a dog.  I mentioned that I spend lots of time hiking in the National Parks where dogs are not allowed on the trails.  His answer - That's why you put a Service Dog vest on the dog.  You can take it anywhere!

We volunteered at a National Wildlife Refuge that provided a very popular beach access, but did not allow dogs on the trails or the beach. All of the local's knew that if they simply said "This is a Service Dog" that was the end of the conversation and they could not (by this particular NWR's policy) be questioned further or even asked if the dog had a vest. They were free from that point on to go on in with their dog.  If even 5% of those dogs were actually service animals I would be surprised. 

[Kirk W]

58 minutes ago, 2gypsies said:

For the most part, dogs are not allowed on national park trails..... but there are exceptions. You need to get the information for each park's web site.... LOTS of good information.  For instance, at Grand Canyon South Rim dogs are allowed on the Rim Trail.

You need to check with each park to be sure. Last time I was in Yellowstone they did not allow dogs on the trails or the boardwalks and you could not leave a dog in your car. But each park has it's own rules. Here are some that do allow dogs.  7 Dog-Friendly National Parks

4 hours ago, vermilye said:

His answer - That's why you put a Service Dog vest on the dog.  You can take it anywhere!

And that is the reason we will one day have to get government regulation involved in the issue. 

[Twotoes]

8 hours ago, Blues said:

So this got me wondering--what tasks related to having no toes on someone's foot does a service dog perform?

Seriously? I am a partial amputee and you question why I need a service dog. Have you ever tried to walk and balance with no toes? It took me a year of physical therapy to be able to walk. I am offended by your post. 

[chirakawa]

57 minutes ago, Twotoes said:

Seriously? I am a partial amputee and you question why I need a service dog. Have you ever tried to walk and balance with no toes? It took me a year of physical therapy to be able to walk. I am offended by your post. 

I can understand why you are offended.  I may be wrong, but I don't think Blues meant it as a slight.  I, too, wondered how a dog could help, but I didn't ask because I didn't want to offend.  I would think that walking without toes would be very difficult.  I just can't picture how the dog helps.  I don't blame you for not wanting to educate us though.

[Ronbo]

My nephew came back from Afghanistan with severe PTSD and a broken back. He is unable to work and has difficulty going out in public. He doesn’t even want to go to the va but he has too in order to get his meds. He is only able to go out in public because he has a support dog. It is small and is very well trained. 

[Pat & Pete]

5 minutes ago, Ronbo said:

My nephew came back from Afghanistan with severe PTSD and a broken back. He is unable to work and has difficulty going out in public. He doesn’t even want to go to the va but he has too in order to get his meds. He is only able to go out in public because he has a support dog. It is small and is very well trained. 

It may be little consolation , but , please pass along our thanks for his service and sacrifice . 

[Kirk W]

12 hours ago, chirakawa said:

I can understand why you are offended.  I may be wrong, but I don't think Blues meant it as a slight.  I, too, wondered how a dog could help, but I didn't ask because I didn't want to offend.  I would think that walking without toes would be very difficult.  I just can't picture how the dog helps.  I don't blame you for not wanting to educate us though.

I was much the same. I had a shipmate that had only his big toe amputated and he now walks with a limp so have come to understand how important the toes are, but I had that same question. It isn't intended to criticize, but an attempt to learn. 

[Carlos]

13 hours ago, Twotoes said:

I am offended by your post. 

 

That's a bit extreme, I think the question was meant to help understanding, not to tell you that you're wrong.  I knew the answer...because I asked someone before.  I was always happy when people would ask "How can a dog help her with epilepsy" because it was an opportunity to help others understand a person's challenges.

 

[pjstough]

17 hours ago, Twotoes said:

Seriously? I am a partial amputee and you question why I need a service dog. Have you ever tried to walk and balance with no toes? It took me a year of physical therapy to be able to walk. I am offended by your post. 

I find it odd that you are offended.  I too, am wondering what service your service dog provides?  I have a friend that I served with who is a double amputee below the knees, and has only a finger and a thumb on one hand, but he doesnt have a service dog, and I have seen other double amputees below the knee without service dogs.

 

[Blues]

21 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

We volunteered at a National Wildlife Refuge that provided a very popular beach access, but did not allow dogs on the trails or the beach. All of the local's knew that if they simply said "This is a Service Dog" that was the end of the conversation and they could not (by this particular NWR's policy) be questioned further or even asked if the dog had a vest.

See, that's the problem.  Service dogs aren't required to have a vest, so vests shouldn't even be mentioned when it comes to service dogs, ever.  So to have a policy not to ask about a vest is the right and legal way to do it, but to combine that with not asking anything else is wrong, and that ignorance of the law by businesses is what lets people get away with this.

If you'll give me the name of the NWR, I'll be happy to contact them and direct them to information on how service dogs are handled under the ADA.  Or maybe they just want locals (their friends) to be able to bring their dogs onto the beach?

[Blues]

18 hours ago, chirakawa said:

I, too, wondered how a dog could help, but I didn't ask because I didn't want to offend.  I would think that walking without toes would be very difficult.  I just can't picture how the dog helps.  I don't blame you for not wanting to educate us though.

I was very careful to ask exactly what the ADA says can/should be asked with regard to service dogs.  Anyone with a service dog should expect to be asked that very question, whether he wants to educate anybody or not. 

And to be frank, getting offended by it is something I expect more from someone with a chihuahua wearing a "service dog" vest in a shopping cart.

[Carlos]

2 minutes ago, Blues said:

And to be frank, getting offended by it is something I expect more from someone with a chihuahua wearing a "service dog" vest in a shopping cart.

 

You own me a new keyboard and a new cup of coffee.  Also it hurt to spray it out of my nose.

 

[mptjelgin]

20 minutes ago, Blues said:

See, that's the problem.  Service dogs aren't required to have a vest, so vests shouldn't even be mentioned when it comes to service dogs, ever.  So to have a policy not to ask about a vest is the right and legal way to do it, but to combine that with not asking anything else is wrong, and that ignorance of the law by businesses is what lets people get away with this.

If you'll give me the name of the NWR, I'll be happy to contact them and direct them to information on how service dogs are handled under the ADA.  Or maybe they just want locals (their friends) to be able to bring their dogs onto the beach?

They had no reason to want dogs (local or otherwise) on the beach, but were terrified of getting into a legal issue with staff or volunteers asking the wrong questions to the wrong people. 

I think that they were generally aware of this guidance from the ADA.gov website:

In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.

But the problem becomes, what to do you with the answers? Most people would respond (1) Yes (2) None of your business, and then where does that leave the staff/volunteer?  

[chirakawa]

38 minutes ago, Blues said:

I was very careful to ask exactly what the ADA says can/should be asked with regard to service dogs.  Anyone with a service dog should expect to be asked that very question, whether he wants to educate anybody or not. 

And to be frank, getting offended by it is something I expect more from someone with a chihuahua wearing a "service dog" vest in a shopping cart.

I stand corrected.  I gave you more credit than you wanted.

[FL-JOE]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 7:30 PM, Twotoes said:

Seriously? I am a partial amputee and you question why I need a service dog. Have you ever tried to walk and balance with no toes? It took me a year of physical therapy to be able to walk. I am offended by your post. 

Twotoes, I guess you better be offended at me also because for the life of me I can't figure out why a service dog would help you.  My BIL lost both legs above the knees and he loves his two dogs, but there is no way they are service dogs in his mind, let alone comfort support animals.  Please enlighten us.

[FL-JOE]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 8:33 PM, Ronbo said:

My nephew came back from Afghanistan with severe PTSD and a broken back. He is unable to work and has difficulty going out in public. He doesn’t even want to go to the va but he has too in order to get his meds. He is only able to go out in public because he has a support dog. It is small and is very well trained. 

Pass on my thanks to your nephew, he is a modern day American hero in my book.  PTSD is real and can be devastating.  Tell him to continue the fight to get better.