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FL-JOE

Service Dogs?

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I am a Florida resident.  I have gotten used to being in a Publix or other business and seeing dogs in shopping carts, strollers, and on leads.  

We attended the Tampa RV show yesterday and I must say I was a little shocked.  I understood there were only suppose to be "service" animals allowed inside the show.  There were dozens of folks from my generation (baby boomers) with their fur babies.  Some were little 5 pounders and some were 150 pounders.  All of the owners looked pretty normal to me but apparently they have some type of mental issues and these canines keep them calmed down.  I was very sad at the end of the day to think that my generation had so many in such need.

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As it is anyone can claim any reasonably quiet animal is a service animal with no validation required. While I am not sure about adding another layer of bureaucracy but I think there needs to be some sort of standardization and certification of service animals. Perhaps via the ASPCA or something? It is all too easy to go online and get a "certificate" and a vest, just check out Amazon. 

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1 hour ago, Chalkie said:

 While I am not sure about adding another layer of bureaucracy but I think there needs to be some sort of standardization and certification of service animals.

With a family member who is dependant on her guide dog, I have come to agree with you on this. The way the law is written anyone can claim to have "self trained" their dog as a service dog. We once met a group who promoted the idea that everyone should go to Amazon and get service dog credentials for their pet so that it would be allowed to go everywhere. 

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There is no rule that restricts pets to service animals only at the RV show.

From the RV show website:

Pets -

Mild-tempered dogs are welcome on a leash. Please clean up after your pets.

 

We went today, and I was shocked to see someone there with a CAT on a leash!  I mean, come on now!  The rules clearly say mild tempered dogs are welcome!

 

;)

 

 

 

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All of the Jeep, boat, and RV shows around here have been pet friendly. 

Sure, there's a separate problem of people claiming dogs are assistance dogs when they are not.  But you *can* do something about it (or well, the property owner/manager can).  Under federal law, emotional support animals are NOT given a pass.  Local laws may vary.  Also the vest and documents are meaningless; real service animals don't need them, and having them confers no privileges.  The vest is either to help with the job, or just tell people to not pet the dog.

 

In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.

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While I have family with service animals, I am tired of seeing anyone and everyone bring their dog with them everywhere. A very easy way to know if an animal is NOT a service animal is if they are carried or placed in a shopping cart. They should be kicked out immediately. Ant I’d any animal is placed in a grocery cart, the store is supposed to remove the cart from service u til it is sanitized. Doesn’t happen much. 

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2 hours ago, pjstough said:

I am with Fl-Joe on this issue.

Good . So am I . I was just trying to match his sarcastic inference . ;)

 

2 hours ago, chindog said:

There is no rule that restricts pets to service animals only at the RV show.

From the RV show website:

Pets -

Mild-tempered dogs are welcome on a leash. Please clean up after your pets.

 

We went today, and I was shocked to see someone there with a CAT on a leash!  I mean, come on now!  The rules clearly say mild tempered dogs are welcome!

 

;)

 

 

 

A lot of people are simply big kids . They are going to see just how far they can get away with most anything .

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1 hour ago, Ronbo said:

While I have family with service animals, I am tired of seeing anyone and everyone bring their dog with them everywhere. A very easy way to know if an animal is NOT a service animal is if they are carried or placed in a shopping cart. They should be kicked out immediately. Ant I’d any animal is placed in a grocery cart, the store is supposed to remove the cart from service u til it is sanitized. Doesn’t happen much. 

I totally agree!  A dog in a grocery cart.... or any cart is disgusting. Some will even bring in a dog blanket or bed and place the filthy thing in the cart.  The same for kids of all ages in the cart itself; not ones sitting in the proper place.  We've seen teens playing around and sitting in the carts.  We put our food in those carts folks.

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I am disabled and have a service dog. You can not tell from my appearance that I am handicapped. The Americans With a Disabilaty Act was changed a few years ago. The law as I understand it says that the animal MUST be a dog. No monkeys, birds, horses etc.  Also the disabled person must have a physical handicap. I am a partial amputee, no toes on my right foot.  No therapy dogs or emotional support dogs. There is NO cirtificate issued or required. Don’t ask me to show you one. If some one has a certificate it is only a diploma from the school that trained the dog. As far as buying a vest for the dog, I could not find one for sale at PetSmart or PetCo and had to go online to purchase one.  

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12 hours ago, chindog said:

There is no rule that restricts pets to service animals only at the RV show.

From the RV show website:

Pets -

Mild-tempered dogs are welcome on a leash. Please clean up after your pets.

 

We went today, and I was shocked to see someone there with a CAT on a leash!  I mean, come on now!  The rules clearly say mild tempered dogs are welcome!

 

;)

 

 

 

You may be correct.  After trying to maneuver past two very large friendly dogs in the crowd a buddy mentioned he thought he saw a sign that dogs were limited to service dogs at the show, he must have been wrong.  

The only sign I saw was a list of rules at the very outer gate.  I didn't read much past "no weapons or firearms allowed".  

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The service dog (animal) debates are very interesting to me, because of our daughter-in-law. She has no vision at all (a glass eye sees nothing) and is very dependant on her guide dog, but even so, there are places that she uses a cane because it would be inappropriate to take her dog. She tells me that in some of the blind training she has attended, this is discussed at length. Jenny never takes her dog into very crowded areas such as a concert or ballpark. She also leaves her dog behind when visiting the zoo. And since it has been mentioned previously, Jenny never takes her guide dog grocery shopping. When I asked her about that she explained that since her dog wasn't trained to read the labels on items for her she would need assistance anyway. 

Sadly, there are organizations that encourage the abuse of the ADA laws about service animals. A key one is the Assistance Dog Registry which uses very guarded language to foster such abuse of privileges. If you take the time to read what they have on that site it will help to understand why we see so many questionable service dogs today. If in doubt about that registry is so effective, read the 1-page explanation of the ADA from the US Justice Department. 

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10 hours ago, Twotoes said:

The law as I understand it says that the animal MUST be a dog. No monkeys, birds, horses etc.  Also the disabled person must have a physical handicap.

Yes, the ADA specifically uses "dog" when talking about it.  On the physical part, this might be semantics or a narrow detail, but...  It can be something like epilepsy that isn't normally considered a physical handicap.  We were training a dog to help my wife by predicting seizures, and/or press a button if she has one.  This is a legal use, but there's no actual physically detectable problem. 

If a person has a non-dog that they claim under the ADA, they are lying.  So it's some other kind of SUPPORT animal, not a SERVICE animal.  The ADA is silent on support animals, you have to look to state and local laws to see what they say.  My friend with PTSD from military service has emotional support dogs that are perfectly trained, so he does take them into almost everywhere, by asking first.  They aren't legally required to allow it, but then, the dogs cause absolutely no problem.

 

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We have lots of pet friendly stores here like Home Depot, Lowes, Tractor Supply, Goodwill, and many others. Maggie is not a service dog just my furkid. She is gentle and not aggressive in seeking attention. She calmly heels without command as she knows I'll be stopping and looking often so she sits patiently or looks at what's on the shelves. I never try to bring her anywhere groceries are sold, as they are not allowed. We have a big dog park across the river for off leash play with other dogs, and swimming in the pond. Here we have trails and parks that are dog friendly too.

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We were in one of our favorite local restaurants yesterday for lunch (Sunday).  An older couple came in and were seated at the booth across from us.  She was hauling a small canine in her arms and sat it on the booth seat beside her where it stayed while they ate.

My question is would this restaurant allow a human to sit bare butt on a booth seat?  Or for that matter, would they allow bare human feet that had been walking outside in the grass to be in contact with a booth seat surface?   How many times do you see a sign in the window of a restaurant that says "no shoes, no shirt, no service".  Does the general public somehow believe that a canine's poop shoot and bare paws (feet) are cleaner and germ free compared to a human?

We were with friends from up north we hadn't seen in awhile, so we were in our seats much longer than the dog carrying couple.  When they left the staff came over and cleaned off the table top but never cleaned where the dog sat.  Nice for the next family that comes in and has their little 5 year old daughter sit there in her white Sunday church dress.

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FL-JOE, haven't you realized that when it comes to pets, the whole country has gone stupid?  If you go out in public, just learn to deal with it.

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1 hour ago, chirakawa said:

FL-JOE, haven't you realized that when it comes to pets, the whole country has gone stupid?  If you go out in public, just learn to deal with it.

Ha . You think it only has to do with Pets ? 

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2 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

My question is would this restaurant allow a human to sit bare butt on a booth seat?

Probably.  On Friday I watched someone change her baby's diaper in the booth right on the seat.  And people cross their legs and put up their feet in booths all the time.

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1 hour ago, Pat & Pete said:

Ha . You think it only has to do with Pets ? 

Not at all, but that was the subject of this thread.  Good point.

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On 1/18/2019 at 9:26 AM, Carlos said:

 

On 1/17/2019 at 10:42 PM, Twotoes said:

The law as I understand it says that the animal MUST be a dog. No monkeys, birds, horses etc.  

Yes, the ADA specifically uses "dog" when talking about it.  ...

If a person has a non-dog that they claim under the ADA, they are lying. 

Actually, service animals can also be miniature horses.  The definition of "service animal" mentions only dogs, but a separate section says that the provisions apply to miniature horses, as well.  See 28 C.F.R. §35.136(i). 

So people who claim a miniature horse is a service animal are not necessarily lying.

You know how people are invited to comment on proposed laws?  The government agencies address those comments in the Federal Register.  In this case, you can download the pertinent portion of the Federal Register here.  The discussion of miniature horses is interesting.  It starts on page 56198, at the bottom of the middle column, with this: 

Quote

Miniature horses. The Department has been persuaded by commenters and the available research to include a provision that would require public entities to make reasonable modifications to policies, practices, or procedures to permit the use of a miniature horse by a person with a disability if the miniature horse has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of the individual with a disability.

I apologize if interjecting actual law, with citations, into the discussion is considered bad form.  😉

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22 hours ago, chirakawa said:

FL-JOE, haven't you realized that when it comes to pets, the whole country has gone stupid?  If you go out in public, just learn to deal with it.

Actually I'm not observing the whole country going stupid when it comes to pets.  When we are in the Black Hills I seldom see folks hauling their dogs in restaurants and grocery stores.  Same goes for the time we spend every summer in the Smokey mountains.  I probably notice it more in Florida (in season) than any other place in the country.   

Yesterday my buddy and I were busy at his campsite (corn hole & beer) when we noticed about 50 to 60 people exiting the community building at our CG.  We didn't have a clue what meeting we may have just missed and hoped it wasn't something important.  We asked and found out it was a meeting called to discuss issues involving pet owners not picking up after their pets in our CG, plus a secondary issue of someone placing dog crap on someone else's truck bumper!  

Neither my buddy nor I have dogs, cats, snakes, gold fish, or small horses.  We are the strange old guys that simply travel with their wives and no animals.  We are rethinking that though because it now looks like we are being excluded from some group meetings!

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12 hours ago, Blues said:

I apologize if interjecting actual law, with citations, into the discussion is considered bad form.

 

LOL, I think facts are more important than anyone wanting to be "right."  I have been going from the ADA's official site.  Not shocking that one government branch would have a disconnect from another.  You'd think there could be one source...

 

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Not to get too deep into the weeds, but the deal with service dogs is that they can go pretty much any place the owner can go (can go into restaurants where dogs aren't allowed, but can't go into a swimming pool in a gym). The "rights" of service miniature horses aren't quite as broad as the "rights" of service animals. The fact sheet about the final version of the rule says, "The rule permits the use of trained miniature horses as alternatives to dogs, subject to certain limitations. To allow flexibility in situations where using a horse would not be appropriate, the final rule does not include miniature horses in the definition of 'service animal.'"

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/factsheets/title3_factsheet.html

It's a nuanced situation, and people don't do well with nuance.  Just look what they've done with the latitude available for "emotional support animals."  Contrary to what most people think, writing rules and laws is amazingly tricky because you have to include words that cover every contingency and loophole you can think of, and preferably, ones that you haven't thought of yet.

And people won't read more than a certain number of words, so you can't just refer them to the rule.  So you have to distill it for them, and miniature horses won't matter to 99.9% of people reading about the rule, so if you include the horses in your distillation you run the risk of hitting the limit of words people will read, and they'll miss the part that does matter. 

Basically, it's people who are the problem.  As usual.

 

 

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And where does horse start and dog end?  I once saw a guy with a wheelchair pulling dog.  It was a mastiff, around 175 pounds.

 

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