South Carolina State Transport Police encounter

[Pete Kildow]

7 hours ago, Steve from SoCal said:

Are you sure of that?      A lot of clerks don't know the laws the enforce.

https://www.tn.gov/safety/driver-services/commercial-driver-license/cdlalt_faqs.html

 

Steve

Had nothing to do with a Clerk. State of Tn did it, Know a few more. That without a DOT Physical. There Class A was also downgraded to a Class C. I had to renew my Class A. And without a current Health card. I went from a Class A to a Class C.

I guess I could have lied, and gotten around it. But unlike so many will not lie to do it. I put that right along with all the people today. You see with a Service Dog. Its not a Service dog, just a pet. They think should be able to go where they go.

Sorry but Know 24 years ago, they took mine. Today it may be different, but don't bet on it. Checked on getting mine back this summer. Was told, do all the testing, no issue. Have a truck to do the testing in, no issues. Current Health card, and a release from My Dr's. Issue there.

 

[MsChrissi]

In Missouri the medical requirements for both inter-state and intra-state, excepted and non-excepted all include the word "commerce" as being the activity.

The excepted listing does not have a subgroup that would describe anything close to our use as a motorhome.

There is no commerce involved.

[Big5er]

Chrissi, the definition (per the fed regs) of "commerce" is

Quote

Any trade, traffic or transportation within the jurisdiction of the United States between a place in a State and a place outside of such State, including a place outside of the United States.

And a "commercial motor vehicle" is

Quote

A motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle is a—

(1) Combination Vehicle (Group A)—having a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), whichever is greater; or

(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—having a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater;

 

(both quotes are abbreviated for applicability to this conversation)

Driving around is "traffic or transportation" so, by definition, that IS commerce and our HDT's also fit the definition of a "commercial motor vehicle".  That is why RV's, when used "strictly for non-business purposes", have a specific exemption in those regulation. That is also why Charlie (and some others) got stopped. 

Someone, somewhere transports 5th wheel trailers for a living. Some even do it illegally. IF (notice I said "if") Charlie was not exempt from the regulations there are several things that he (visibly) doesn't have and that he must do. Therefore he got stopped. The officer was fishing. Cast the line out and see if you catch a fish. He saw a possible violation and checked it out. That is what CVE officers do. That trooper caught Charlie. IF (again with the "if") Charlie was illegally hauling commercially the trooper had himself a big fish. Since Charlie was ready, he answered a few questions and quickly convinced that trooper that he had not caught a fish at all. Catch and release......happens all the time. 

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck, but we are NOT ducks. We are dragons.....in a duck suit. 

 

NOW, having said all of that, what the State of Missouri wants you to have a do, is strictly up to them. If they say they want you to have a medical card to drive a big RV, then you need a medical card to drive a big RV.

[DanZemke]

Big5er,

I realize this is you're field of expertise, but something seems wrong here, or perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by:

"Driving around is "traffic or transportation" so, by definition, that IS commerce".

Would you mind posting a link to the Federal regulation that includes that part?   Along with index letters/numbers that allow me to parse the actual paragraphs that apply.

Dan

P.S. I did a little bit of research on the Federal definition of Commerce and could not find anything that seems to equate driving around with commerce.

 

[DanZemke]

Big5er,

I found the fed regs I think you were referencing, and they're exactly as you described:

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=1&ty=HTML&h=L&mc=true&=PART&n=pt49.5.383#se49.5.383_15

After spending an excessive amount of time on this,  I think I now have a clearer picture, which I'm attempting to share, for those who may care.  

I found that the FMCSR (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations) includes lots of definitions, but does not define "commercial", "commercial use", or "commercial activity".   At first I found this curious, but came to understand.  These regulations are left for the States per the Commerce Clause of our Constitution. These "States' rights" are used to tailor programs (e.g. taxes) to meet local needs.  As long as the local regulations don't interfere with transportation outside an individual State, the Feds don't care.

The FMCSR does not regulate drivers licenses for "commercial" use.  It does regulate drivers licenses for "Commercial Motor Vehicles".

The FMCSR defines a class of vehicles by their physical characteristics (plus some variations based on passengers and hazardous materials).  It labels this class as: "Commercial Motor Vehicles".  But that's just an arbitrary label.  The class could have been labeled "Type 32 Vehicles" and there would be no change in meaning.

The FMCSR does have exemptions, but I couldn't find them for "personal use" or "recreational vehicles".  I think these are State level regs.

Outside the FMCSR (regulations) there is a commonly used definition of "commercial" across states:

https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/commercial/
A commercial use is one which is undertaken for a business purpose, rather than hobby, recreational, educational, or other purposes. Such uses are usually attributed to a for-profit entity, rather than an individual, university or other educational institutions, or non-profit organizations (such as public libraries, charities, and other organizations created for the promotion of social welfare).   

 

So Charlie (OP) was pulled over because the officer visually determined that Charlie was driving a "Commercial Motor Vehicle" (which may or may not be in "commercial use").   Or, as Big5er said, the officer was fishing.  He applied his State's version of the definition of "commercial" (having nothing to do with FMCSR) and decided no fish.

--------------- And now a little fun ------------------------

In my research, I indirectly learned a bit more about Big5er's role.

https://thelawdictionary.org/commerce/
What is COMMERCE?
Intercourse by way of trade and traffic between different peoples or states and the citizens or inhabitants thereof, including not only the purchase, sale, and exchange of commodities, but also the instrumentalities and agencies by which it is promoted and the means and appliances by which it is carried on, and the transportation of persons as well as of goods, both by land and by sea.

https://thelawdictionary.org/intercourse/
What is INTERCOURSE?
Communication; literally, a running or passing between persons or places; commerce. As applied to two persons, the word standing alone, and without a descriptive or qualifying word, does not import sexual connection.  

So I'm wondering if Big5er would consider a more appropriate handle: Commercial_Intercourse_Officer? 😉 

[Dollytrolley]

21 minutes ago, DanZemke said:

Big5er,

I found the fed regs I think you were referencing, and they're exactly as you described:

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=1&ty=HTML&h=L&mc=true&=PART&n=pt49.5.383#se49.5.383_15

After spending an excessive amount of time on this,  I think I now have a clearer picture, which I'm attempting to share, for those who may care.  

I found that the FMCSR (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations) includes lots of definitions, but does not define "commercial", "commercial use", or "commercial activity".   At first I found this curious, but came to understand.  These regulations are left for the States per the Commerce Clause of our Constitution. These "States' rights" are used to tailor programs (e.g. taxes) to meet local needs.  As long as the local regulations don't interfere with transportation outside an individual State, the Feds don't care.

The FMCSR does not regulate drivers licenses for "commercial" use.  It does regulate drivers licenses for "Commercial Motor Vehicles".

The FMCSR defines a class of vehicles by their physical characteristics (plus some variations based on passengers and hazardous materials).  It labels this class as: "Commercial Motor Vehicles".  But that's just an arbitrary label.  The class could have been labeled "Type 32 Vehicles" and there would be no change in meaning.

The FMCSR does have exemptions, but "personal use" and "recreational vehicle" are not among them.  Again, this is left to the States.

Outside the FMCSR (regulations) there is a commonly used definition of "commercial" across states:

https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/commercial/
A commercial use is one which is undertaken for a business purpose, rather than hobby, recreational, educational, or other purposes. Such uses are usually attributed to a for-profit entity, rather than an individual, university or other educational institutions, or non-profit organizations (such as public libraries, charities, and other organizations created for the promotion of social welfare).   

 

So Charlie (OP) was pulled over because the officer visually determined that Charlie was driving a "Commercial Motor Vehicle" (which may or may not be in "commercial use").   Or, as Big5er said, the officer was fishing.  He applied his State's version of the definition of "commercial" (having nothing to do with FMCSR) and decided no fish.

--------------- And now a little fun ------------------------

In my research, I indirectly learned a bit more about Big5er's role.

https://thelawdictionary.org/commerce/
What is COMMERCE?
Intercourse by way of trade and traffic between different peoples or states and the citizens or inhabitants thereof, including not only the purchase, sale, and exchange of commodities, but also the instrumentalities and agencies by which it is promoted and the means and appliances by which it is carried on, and the transportation of persons as well as of goods, both by land and by sea.

https://thelawdictionary.org/intercourse/
What is INTERCOURSE?
Communication; literally, a running or passing between persons or places; commerce. As applied to two persons, the word standing alone, and without a descriptive or qualifying word, does not import sexual connection.  

So I'm wondering if Big5er would consider a more appropriate handle: Commercial_Intercourse_Regulator? 😉 

Uh0000......Phil......Speechless......

Might be Crown /Dr. P.......time.....

Drive on.......( C-i-R.......more Crown with a splash of ....the Dr.)

[Moresmoke]

1 hour ago, DanZemke said:

 

So I'm wondering if Big5er would consider a more appropriate handle: Commercial_Intercourse_Officer? 😉 

If you spend more time digging into this you will find one of the common requirements for a heavy vehicle to be considered non commercial is that its sole use is for the owner’s “personal pleasure”.

More seriously, if a person owns a needle nose Pete and travels to truck shows for the fun of it, it is likely a personal use, so long as there is no business purpose to it.  Even though he could technically hook to a trailer and haul freight.

You are right that the states have some control over how things are defined.  Big5er would tell you that racing and rodeo is commercial use, whether we are talking an HDT or a class A with a 2 horse trailer. And in Texas he is right, but not all states share that definition.

I use my HDT to go to Motorsport events. Last year I had $91 in winnings. I enjoy it and go purely for fun. I don’t even keep track of how much I spend on fuel to get there. I don’t want to know.

So, you do need to be prepared to explain yourself if questioned.

 

[Randyretired]

This is all interesting to me as I use our HDT for more than our 5er.  I also haul a dump trailer and a flatbed trailer to transport a backhoe and skid steer.  All if it is for personal use.  So far in Colorado none of the LEO's we have seen even seem interested.  I have driven past road side checks for commercial vehicles and a glance is about all we ever encounter.  Our vehicle license indicates recreational.  A number of years ago I pulled into a weigh and check station with a load of hay.  After some questions to determine what I was doing we were sent on our way.  Before I bought our HDT I stopped at a Utah weigh and check and asked if I needed to stop.  Please don't was the reply.  He said when I see a setup like yours I just assume Grandma and Grandpa are out to play and we have other business to attend to.  That was a number of years ago and his answer both encouraged me and well he  said Grandpa 🤔

[beemergary]

5 hours ago, Moresmoke said:

If you spend more time digging into this you will find one of the common requirements for a heavy vehicle to be considered non commercial is that its sole use is for the owner’s “personal pleasure”.

More seriously, if a person owns a needle nose Pete and travels to truck shows for the fun of it, it is likely a personal use, so long as there is no business purpose to it.  Even though he could technically hook to a trailer and haul freight.

You are right that the states have some control over how things are defined.  Big5er would tell you that racing and rodeo is commercial use, whether we are talking an HDT or a class A with a 2 horse trailer. And in Texas he is right, but not all states share that definition.

I use my HDT to go to Motorsport events. Last year I had $91 in winnings. I enjoy it and go purely for fun. I don’t even keep track of how much I spend on fuel to get there. I don’t want to know.

So, you do need to be prepared to explain yourself if questioned.

 

Had some one on here tell me on here since I drive my HDT to drag races I should be commercial. In last 8 yrs I did make a few bucks twice. Well I think all you folks who drive your rigs to the Casinio (since I don't gamble) should be commercial and pay uncle Sam forward.  Just Kidding  I have been running antique plates out of state also.

[DanZemke]

Phil was apoplectic about my demeaning suggestion that he adopt a new handle: "Commercial Intercourse Officer".  We had a private conversation.

I fought back, correcting him.  It isn't demeaning, it's accurate!

He said maybe so, but that doesn't make it right.  Then he came around and changed his mind and decided he wanted to change his Escapees ID.

By this time I was seething.  I electronically yelled at him saying you can't.  I just trade-marked it.

He threatened me about never setting foot in TX.

---------------

Just kidding.  We had a delightful conversation, and I learned some things.  We agree (but Phil won't be adopting my playful suggestion for a new hande).

[DanZemke]

Moresmoke,

I'm not an expert in this field, but my impression is that the amount of winnings and expenses like fuel are irrelevant in many states.  For example, in CT, it's only about ANY income, not profit.

[DanZemke]

Randyretired

"I also haul a dump trailer and a flatbed trailer to transport a backhoe and skid steer.  All if it is for personal use."

If the backhoe and skid steer are only used for your own property, you should be OK.  If they are used in conjunction with any work that you receive income from, you may not be.

[Randyretired]

38 minutes ago, DanZemke said:

Randyretired

"I also haul a dump trailer and a flatbed trailer to transport a backhoe and skid steer.  All if it is for personal use."

If the backhoe and skid steer are only used for your own property, you should be OK.  If they are used in conjunction with any work that you receive income from, you may not be.

I only use this equipment for our own property.  We have 140 acres of recreational mountain land and we currently have a house and 35 acres in the valley.  I move the equipment back and forth as needed.  I also am improving the road and it will need several loads of gravel.  Finally we will probably build on the mountain land and sell the house in the valley.  These trailers I use are smaller than typically seen behind a tandem tractor.  The dump trailer has a 16' bed and the flat bed has a 30' bed. Both were built as goosenecks but I use a 5th wheel pin. The HDT has a bed and just a trailer saver hitch so that looks a little less commercial.  Most of the LEO's we pass hardly pay any attention to us even when bypassing roadside commercial check points.  I bought this truck about 13 years ago.

[Moresmoke]

5 hours ago, DanZemke said:

Moresmoke,

I'm not an expert in this field, but my impression is that the amount of winnings and expenses like fuel are irrelevant in many states.  For example, in CT, it's only about ANY income, not profit.

As said, it depends on the state. There are also some states that recognize that a kid might be able to put together a bomber class car and go racing at the local fairgrounds on Thursday night. Yeah he might win a few bucks from time to time, but he will never be a NASCAR driver. Even the guys that win consistently will never pay for their $10000 engines. In SD, you can only collect up to $2000 in sponsorships if you don’t want to be commercial.

So you do need to know how the states you travel in interpret things.

Remember, the federal commercial definition if applicable affects any combination over 10000 lb GCWR. So it’s not just guys using big trucks that have to be concerned.

[dblr]

8 hours ago, Moresmoke said:

 

Remember, the federal commercial definition if applicable affects any combination over 10000 lb GCWR. So it’s not just guys using big trucks that have to be concerned.

I have heard of the state police setting up a weight check very close to a popular drag strip and handing out fines for overloaded vehicles as they depart, nothing regarding commercial status but mostly over weight vehicles.

[Big5er]

22 hours ago, DanZemke said:

Just kidding.  We had a delightful conversation, and I learned some things.  We agree (but Phil won't be adopting my playful suggestion for a new hande).

That agreement came only after Dan agreed to email me a case of Dr. Pepper. 

[Radar274]

53 minutes ago, Big5er said:

That agreement came only after Dan agreed to email me a case of Dr. Pepper. 

CAREFUL 5er... might there be a limit on the amount of DP one can accept before one is considered a PRO ......... and..........DOT #'s along with a CDL is required??????? LOL

[beemergary]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:07 PM, dblr said:

I have heard of the state police setting up a weight check very close to a popular drag strip and handing out fines for overloaded vehicles as they depart, nothing regarding commercial status but mostly over weight vehicles.

Know of someone that happened to. Car-tool boxes-golf cart, generator, etc. and your way over axle and tire limits. State boys sayed its a safety issue.

 

[dascom]

Well leave it to a farmer to mess up the whole commerce thing.
A Buckeye farmer to boot.
Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942)

Roscoe Filburn, was growing wheat to feed animals on his own farm.
"Wickard thus establishes that Congress can regulate purely intrastate activity that is not itself "commercial"
There are few things you can do that can not be regulated and taxed, commercial or not, but I am not being critical, just saying. 8-)

 

[53wlee53]

how do you email a case of Dr Pepper? I got know!

[Big5er]

24 minutes ago, 53wlee53 said:

how do you email a case of Dr Pepper? I got know!

FINALLY! Damn I've been waiting forever to see if anyone would catch that.

[53wlee53]

still waiting on the answer ! When you email it does it retain the calories/taste?

 

[rickeieio]

1 hour ago, 53wlee53 said:

still waiting on the answer ! When you email it does it retain the calories/taste?

 

That only works if you fax it......

[53wlee53]

Whats a fax? Or did you mean facts.

Just kidding.

[bigredhdt]

Is there a thread or link to the recommended contents of the 3 ring binder?