Self-Defense

[DanZemke]

"I believe that the person who buys a gun for protection while traveling in his RV, and no other purpose is foolish."

I've never owned a gun, but have enjoyed trap and skeet shooting several times as well as desert rabbit hunting.  A good friend also coached me on pistols and took me to a range in Nevada to try a couple of glocks and a colt 45. I was comfortable, and reasonably accurate, with all of them.

I'm confident, that I would not have any hesitation killing another human being, who was trying to kill me.

Two months ago, I ordered a shotgun (Mossberg 590A) for self-defense. The next morning, I canceled my order.  Why?

For me the "maintenance" costs outweighed the potential benefits. I don't want to have to practice gun safety, do frequent gun cleaning, or keep up with gun laws across multiple states.

The bottom line assessment, for me, is that the cost of protection, afforded by owning a gun, significantly exceeds the likely protection benefit I would receive.

Others may chose to own guns for self defense - I'm OK with that too. But I don't think it is a wise choice for the average full-time RVer.

[DanZemke]

Dollytrolley - thanks for the info on Dazzlers!

I ordered one on ebay from a China seller and also ordered a second copy of the basic emitter component to experiment with as as well.

I'm hopeful that Pepper Spray and a Dazzler will be a better choice for me, than a shotgun for self defense.

[whj469]

A 9MM Glock. Magazine full, chamber empty. One click of the slide and it is cocked and ready to go. Sure hope that I never need it!

[FL-JOE]

13 hours ago, Kirk W said:

I have been around guns all of my life and owned at least 1 gun since I was 12. I have been both student and instructor in firearms courses and I spend time at the range on a regular basis. Even so, I believe that the person who buys a gun for protection while traveling in his RV, and no other purpose is foolish. If you do not enjoy shooting you are unlikely to be proficient with your chosen gun and when under threat few of us will be at our best. Even experienced police officers often miss more shots than they hit if they ever fire a weapon in the line of duty. 

People who travel by RV are far more likely to be injured or killed in a traffic accident than by any other risk, possibly than by all other risks combined.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion of what others should do or not do to protect themselves.  I also have been around firearms all my life.  Bought my first 410 with paper route money.  Uncle Sam provided me with one of those mean looking plastic black rifles and let me use it for 3 years and 8 months, then for the next 34 years I carried a handgun basically 24/7.  Was a range officer at one local department for several years and when I used to shoot competitively I would go to our range on my lunch hour and shoot 200 round instead of eating lunch every day.  Those days are over and I only shoot a few hundred rounds a year now, some of which are required each summer under Federal Safety Act HR218 for retired officers.  When each of my grandsons (have 11 grandsons and 3 granddaughters) reach a certain age I train them in handgun safety and handgun shooting techniques, with their parents permission of course.  So, you could say my whole life has revolved around firearms.  

This is America my friend.  As far as I'm concerned if any RVer wants to legally purchase a firearm to have as protection while they travel then that is their right.  I will not tell them they are "foolish".  I would encourage them to take a proper safety course and practice safely shooting their firearm, but other than that it is their business how they want to protect themselves.

I respect the fact that some folks are not comfortable around firearms and will never own one.  They are relatively certain that the need will never arise for needing one and they are depending on police and others to protect them if tragedy does strike.  I do not have a problem with that.  It is their right to feel that way and who am I to argue?

I also respect the citizen who keeps a loaded firearm for that "once in a lifetime" emergency and refuses to be a victim.  Again, it is their right and who am I to argue with that or call them names?

I don't like it when someone ridicules another person for making the decision to either have a firearm or not to have a firearm for protection.  However, even though I don't like it, this is America and it is that persons right to ridicule and say whatever they want.  

[FL-JOE]

1 hour ago, whj469 said:

A 9MM Glock. Magazine full, chamber empty. One click of the slide and it is cocked and ready to go. Sure hope that I never need it!

I'm with you on the "sure hope I never need it".

[FL-JOE]

5 hours ago, DanZemke said:

Dollytrolley - thanks for the info on Dazzlers!

I ordered one on ebay from a China seller and also ordered a second copy of the basic emitter component to experiment with as as well.

I'm hopeful that Pepper Spray and a Dazzler will be a better choice for me, than a shotgun for self defense.

Pepper spray generally works pretty well in many cases.  However, I can tell you that sometimes it does not.  The first time I discovered this was at 3am on a lonely interstate highway when the 6'6" intoxicated motorist insisted he was not going to jail but getting back in his car.  A warning and then a full spray of high grade pepper directly onto his forehead didn't slow him down, it just made him mad.

[sandsys]

One of the RV bloggers I read boondocks regularly at Ben Avery Shooting Range in Phoenix, Arizona, to keep his skills up. That sounds to me like a good seasonal stop for those who winter in the desert southwest who carry guns.

https://www.azgfd.com/shooting/basf/

Linda Sand

[Ray,IN]

A friend was an avid hunter and shooting enthusiast,  had some bumper stickers made that were very sound advice; "want more gun control? Practice daily".

I have a now-retired state policeman cousin who never fired his weapon except at a target range during his 20 year service.

To say "I could shoot someone if i had to"  is easy, doing so is anguish you never forget, it's there every day of your life.

Your best defense is your mind, listen to it and get away as quickly and quietly as possible.

I strongly recommend to anyone considering carrying or possessing a handgun for self-defense to read  In the Gravest Extreme, by Massad F. Ayoob

[Dutch_12078]

I haven't carried a weapon or felt the need for one since the government stopped paying me to kill people some 50 years ago, but the nightmares linger on...

[markandkim]

23 hours ago, Kirk W said:

 Even so, I believe that the person who buys a gun for protection while traveling in his RV, and no other purpose is foolish.

Kirk, I can't believe you said this. I'm surprised at you.

At least I'm getting to know you better.

[FL-JOE]

1 hour ago, Dutch_12078 said:

I haven't carried a weapon or felt the need for one since the government stopped paying me to kill people some 50 years ago, but the nightmares linger on...

Welcome home brother.  It is certainly the war that continues to give.....either AO related cancers in your 60's and 70's or bad dreams.  

[k4rs]

10 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

Pepper spray generally works pretty well in many cases.  However, I can tell you that sometimes it does not. 

I can certainly agree with this!  In my 28 years as a law enforcement officer, I had first hand experience in several incidents where chemical agents failed to work.  One that I remember quite clearly involved a violent subject who would not comply with verbal commands.  2 full cans of our newer, more potent, chemical agents had no effect.  It took four of us to subdue him.  Once he was handcuffed he defiantly stated "Hey Sarge, next time use the good stuff".

Safe Travels...

[TCW]

11 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

Pepper spray generally works pretty well in many cases. 

I agree, but it may also work on those it is not intended for. Discharging any aerosol in a confined space like inside an RV may contaminate the whole area and anyone in it. There are pepper spray and other chemical self defense products that emit a fog and others that emit a stream. A stream is less likely then a fog to contaminate non-target areas in a confined space, but it will splash. It takes some practice to consistently hit the target with a stream and there are practice canisters available. The agency that I worked for included exposure to the chemical agents as part of the training required to carry and use them. Picture receiving a bear hug from an assailant with a shirt soaked with pepper spray. The purpose was so that there was no surprise in the affect of exposure and to create the survival mindset that even if exposed, one could continue to defend self and others.

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:13 PM, NDBirdman said:

Along the self defense line, I occasionally must use a cane to walk very far.  I have seen martial arts classes that teach how to use one quite well as a self defense tool.  What say ya'll about a wood cane for self defense? 

 

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:47 PM, sandsys said:

I just watched an episode of Red Rock where I learned the most effective place to hit is behind the knees. They tend to drop which might give you time to get away.

Many items can be used as a baton for self defense. It takes training to know where to strike and practice to be able to reliably hit the target area. The use of a baton can be considered deadly force depending on where on the body it is used to strike. So, education/training is something to consider.

 

 

[Randyretired]

A friend who was a retired swat commander recommended a cane as it can easily be used like a baton.  Depending on where I am I sometimes use a cane.  However, I spend a lot of time in the back country and I often carry a gun.  This friend told of an encounter of a man recklessly driving an ATV on his property.   When he approached the guy he started to jump off his ATV as if he wanted to escalate the encounter.  My friend suddenly pulled the cane back and told the ATV rider he would break both of his arms which were tightly holding the the handle bars.  The ATV rider must have reconsidered as he left.  I am pretty sure my friend was carrying as he usually did but he told me he only draws if he intends to shoot.

[OregonJim]

1 hour ago, Randyretired said:

A friend who was a retired swat commander recommended a cane as it can easily be used like a baton.  

A cane can also be a liability as you will be perceived as someone who is unable to run away or give chase.

I have never been forced to draw a weapon (thank God).  One thing to remember is to never willingly go into situations that you would not go into unarmed.  A gun is a last resort item, not the first line of defense.  I would be more likely to use mine on a rabid animal than another human but, as my instructor says, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away".  He is both a LEO and a retired army colonel.

[Kirk W]

What always concerns me when a thread goes in the direction of this one is that a novice RV user reading it might think that one needs to be prepared to defend themselves if they travel by RV. The facts are that RV travel is one of the safest ways to travel that exist. I have owned an RV of some type for nearly all of the time since 1972 and have stayed in them in remote national forest campgrounds, in camping permitted areas without any campground,  in COE parks, state parks, NPS parks, BLM parks, commercial RV parks, city & county parks, Walmart lots, Home Depot & Lowe's lots, church parking lots, and even in snowbird destination parks and in all of those years I have not one time had a need to protect myself and have never known anyone who had such a need. 

Like most people, I hear the antidotal stories that are told around campfires and on internet forums but have not had personal knowledge to support even one of those stories. There are very few things that a person can spend time doing that are as safe as the RV lifestyle.

[NDBirdman]

My opinions on guns... NEVER pull one unless you are willing to turn your hard earned $$ over to lawyers.  Never pull one unless you are willing/able to kill the attacker.  Never pull one unless you are willing to die, they just might be quicker (ya'll have to admit, at our ages, we are not very fast anymore)!  Therefore, I don't carry one unless I'm on the range or hunting.  On canes, I DO NOT carry one as a weapon, nor do I recommend anyone do so.  I meant to say, when I do have to use one, it is just a tool at hand I can use as defense when left with no choice, but I learned to do so correctly.  I use one when my body refuses to co-operate.  Which is way too often...lol.    Like I said in previous post, I can get more $$ and property, can't get another life.  But, to each 'is own.  Does that gun (or other self-defense mechanism) give you enough of a *feel good* to put your freedom, your or loved one's life in jeopardy?  Money's cheap (and I never carry enough $$ to hurt my finances if lost), life isn't.

Saying that, I will tell you a short story about my SnB.  We live way out in the sticks.  One night I heard someone jiggling some windows and door handles wanting access to my home.  I took down a 12 gauge pump from the gun rack, not loaded nor did I load it, I stood by an upstairs window and racked the shotgun.  It was loud.  Never did see whom-ever it was but was funny, heard, who I think was a drunk, falling all over stuff trying to leave as fast as they could.  Even so, if he hurt himself running away on my property, I bet some no account lawyer and liberal judge would have taken me to the cleaners.  The only real recourse I have/had to protect my wife/self/property, was to post all my property tight then call the sheriff and wait while they steal, damage, etc.  Thing about ND, if you don't post your property with signage, ANYONE can come on, hunt, carry, shoot guns on it, walk, whatever, they are legally free to do so by law so who is in the wrong if you protect yourself?  Because of stupid laws like this, and I'm sure other states besides ND are brain dead on these issues,  I won't carry or use a weapon for self defense, at home or on the road.  My dog can growl pretty convincingly, but he's all bark, no bite.

Saturday I bought a new pistol, love the shooting sports, not for self defense.  There was a sheriff there so I quizzed him about transporting un- loaded guns through out the US in my RV.  His answer was quite enlightening to me.  I won't put down his reply here, only suggest if your truly interested, go talk to a LEO in the respective state, every one is different.  Saying this, I will say there is a LOT of misinformation floating around.  Don't let that little piece of metal in your pocket make you feel invincible, sitting in jail, it won't help you one damn bit!  In this great country of ours, even thieves have rights (not political, just fact, I'm retired military and protected those rights).

I'm sure there are many that don't/won't agree with the way I feel/see it.  What I said above suits me, if not you, it's your right to believe whatever you want.  We are after-all, free individuals to believe/assume whatever makes you happy, you have to live with the consequences of your actions.

 

Edit: sorry for getting off ops topic.  I think Kirk just hit the nail on the head.  Back to the same bat channel, same bat time!

[OU812]

 Good advice...... pull out a weapon and your life from then on will NEVER....NEVER  be the same.  It doesn't matter  Who or What you are.. OU812 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

16 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

Pepper spray generally works pretty well in many cases.  However, I can tell you that sometimes it does not.  The first time I discovered this was at 3am on a lonely interstate highway when the 6'6" intoxicated motorist insisted he was not going to jail but getting back in his car.  A warning and then a full spray of high grade pepper directly onto his forehead didn't slow him down, it just made him mad.

Nothing works 100% of the time.  The very BEST handgun calibers/bullets will give you 90% one-shot stops.  Which means they will fail 10% of the time.

The other thing to keep in mind with pepper spray is that it is no longer considered non-lethal, it is LESS-lethal.  Spray a guy with pepper spray in the face, and - blinded and in pain - he stumbles into traffic and is hit and killed, he's just as dead as if you had whipped out a gun and shot him.  And you will be legally required to justify WHY you sprayed him.

[FL-JOE]

8 hours ago, Kirk W said:

What always concerns me when a thread goes in the direction of this one is that a novice RV user reading it might think that one needs to be prepared to defend themselves if they travel by RV. The facts are that RV travel is one of the safest ways to travel that exist. I have owned an RV of some type for nearly all of the time since 1972 and have stayed in them in remote national forest campgrounds, in camping permitted areas without any campground,  in COE parks, state parks, NPS parks, BLM parks, commercial RV parks, city & county parks, Walmart lots, Home Depot & Lowe's lots, church parking lots, and even in snowbird destination parks and in all of those years I have not one time had a need to protect myself and have never known anyone who had such a need. 

Like most people, I hear the antidotal stories that are told around campfires and on internet forums but have not had personal knowledge to support even one of those stories. There are very few things that a person can spend time doing that are as safe as the RV lifestyle.

Kirk, I know you have tons of experience RVing and obviously have traveled around the country a lot.  Let me assure you that crimes do happen in RV parks.  Back in the 90's I had just completed basic K-9 training with my partner.  We had returned back to our home district and on our first night shift patrol together had a call to a local RV park.  There was a drunk subject threatening other campers with a knife.  My partner and I arrived and the outcome was he did have a knife, he was drunk, and he was arrested after a bit of a tussle.  I was just unfortunate enough to be very close to this CG and that was why I took the call for the county.  But I have personal knowledge that over the years they had other calls to that CG.

I don't think people should be paranoid or freaked out while traveling around the country in their RV.  But to believe that you are safer staying in your RV as compared to a sticknbrick is probably not supported by facts.  

[Kirk W]

11 minutes ago, FL-JOE said:

But to believe that you are safer staying in your RV as compared to a sticknbrick is probably not supported by facts.  

1

I still disagree with you on that one. In all of those years, my RV was burglarized one time and it was parked next to my house in Ft Worth, TX at the time. We were asleep in the house. And I never had to arm myself for defense in my house either. 

[FL-JOE]

6 hours ago, Optimistic Paranoid said:

Nothing works 100% of the time.  The very BEST handgun calibers/bullets will give you 90% one-shot stops.  Which means they will fail 10% of the time.

The other thing to keep in mind with pepper spray is that it is no longer considered non-lethal, it is LESS-lethal.  Spray a guy with pepper spray in the face, and - blinded and in pain - he stumbles into traffic and is hit and killed, he's just as dead as if you had whipped out a gun and shot him.  And you will be legally required to justify WHY you sprayed him.

If you are forced to shoot someone to defend your life, or the life of a family member, then you should not shoot one time and count on that stopping the threat.  I was trained to shoot and keep hitting my target center mass until the threat is gone.  After most police shootings when you interview the officer involved they almost always underestimate how many rounds they fired.  They quickly fire rounds center mass until the threat goes away and sometimes that can be 10 or 12 rounds but in their mind they only pulled the trigger 2 or 3 times.

You only have to be justified in the amount of force you actually use.  Example:  a drunk camper stumbles into your site while you and your wife are sitting around a campfire.  He insists you are in his site and demands you leave.  You try to talk to him but he kicks your wife's chair violently and knocks her over.  He starts to lunge toward you and you grab a piece of firewood and clock him.  He stumbles, trips over the fire, falls and hits his head on a stump and immediately dies.  Of course you have to justify your use of force but just because he died does that mean you used "deadly force"?  Do you wait for him to start stomping your wife's head in while she is laying on the ground?

[FL-JOE]

2 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

I still disagree with you on that one. In all of those years, my RV was burglarized one time and it was parked next to my house in Ft Worth, TX at the time. We were asleep in the house. And I never had to arm myself for defense in my house either. 

Okay, well then based on that reasoning I have owned and lived in my own sticknbrick since 1974 and have never experienced a burglary or theft from my property.  I have only been RVing since 2010 and have experienced a theft already.  So it would seem that my experience tells me that in my life time there is 5 times greater chance I will be the victim of a crime while living in my RV as compared to my sticknbrick.  Do the math, 45 years in the sticknbricks, 8 years RVing.

In today's world, in our country, you can be killed at a country music concert in Vegas, your grandchilds grade school, in a movie theater, or about anyplace else we frequent.  There is certainly no magic bubble of extra protection around you just because you live and travel on an RV my friend.

[RV_]

Amen guys. Thanks Fl. Joe, glad you took the time to read it. My views are all expressed in that article I linked to. Security isn't achieved only through the use of guns. Most folks in full fight or flight response will freeze without training and repetition that can kick in. Never mind checking the wind when using pepper sprays that can and have blown back in their user's face.

Just because I own and keep loaded guns in my home, doesn't mean we want to use them.

Would anyone travel in car truck or motor home without a spare or the means to change a tire be that DIY or roadside assistance? Does having a spare tire or fix a flat mean you want to have a blowout? Of course not.

Safe travels!

 

[FL-JOE]

15 hours ago, OU812 said:

 Good advice...... pull out a weapon and your life from then on will NEVER....NEVER  be the same.  It doesn't matter  Who or What you are.. OU812 

I have never had to fire my weapon at somebody in self defense, and certainly hope I never will.  I have friends who have, and over the years I have investigated others who have.  

Could there be civil litigation later?  Sure there could be and probably would be even for a civilian.  Could there be criminal charges filed against you?  Not if you were in fear of your life and only defending yourself.

If you find yourself in a life and death situation, which most of us never will, do you want to be able to defend yourself and your family or just let it play out?  

This discussion could go on and on I guess.  You have posters that are experienced in the possession/use of firearms that can't agree on RVers having one with them, then you have posters that have never owned a handgun throwing their opinions in the ring.  Bottom line is you have to decide for yourself and live with what you decide.  I'm just happy we can all decide this issue for ourselves and I hope that never changes.