Contaminated Fuel - Pilot

[FL-JOE]

Anyone hear of Pilot station off of I-65 having diesel fuel contaminated with DEF on Thanksgiving day?  This would have been the Pilot in Cornersville TN.

[Ronbo]

If that happened, it would have to be the fault of the fuel delivery guy. 

[FL-JOE]

Buddy of mine was SB on I-65 Thanksgiving day headed to Florida for the winter.  Driving his newer 1-ton Ram pulling a large TH fiver.

He needed both diesel and DEF.  Pulled into the Pilot at Cornersville TN and went into the big rig diesel pumps.  He pumped 48 gallons of diesel between his truck and auxiliary tank in the bed or his truck.  He then pumped 5 gallons of DEF into the truck DEF tank.  Pulled away from pumps and truck wasn't running right.

Called mobile tech.  They came out and changed his filters and said there was water in them.  Truck ran okay so he took off.  About 100+ miles down the road he was stopped for rest break or lunch and decided to top off from auxiliary tank.  Not long after taking off started dropping rpms and that was it.  

The next day they had to be towed to Dodge dealer.  Having injectors and crossover lines replaced with a projected repair bill between $10,000 and $15,000.

I saw a copy of his Pilot receipt.  It shows the 48+ gallons of diesel and right at 5 gallons of DEF.  The only way he could have gotten DEF in both the truck diesel tank and the auxiliary tank in the bed of the truck would have been to pump DEF in both plus pump DEF in the actual DEF tank.  I'm 99% sure none of that happened and this Pilot had somehow contaminated one of their underground diesel tanks with DEF.

[Ray,IN]

I suspect operator error. If a Pilot truck stop was at fault, a number of  trucking companies would be suing Pilot.

The owner of that Ram 3500 was cutting it close, the DEF capacity is 5.5G.

[FL-JOE]

Not sure how he pulls in needing diesel and DEF, then leaves with his truck tank full, his auxiliary tank full, plus his DEF tank topped off and it is driver error?  

In my mind he would have had to remove the small DEF nozzle from under the plastic pump door, fill his DEF tank, then stick it in his auxiliary tank and put a little in that, then stick it in his truck tank and put the rest in there.  That wouldn't be driver error that would be him having some type of stroke or mental issue.

The Dodge dealer took test samples (and saved some) of the diesel in his auxiliary tank and truck tank, they both were contaminated with DEF.  

I'm not sure how a big truck stops underground tanks are plumbed.  I suspect based on the number of visible tank lids there are several individual tanks and they can control what islands pump from what tanks.  Maybe as soon as management knew he had issues they closed valves off to that one underground tank and there may have only been a couple customers effected.   Pilot had something like this happen a few years ago and they took responsibility for tons of engine repairs/replacements.  I'm sure that cost them a lot of money and they surely learned something from it.

I'm hoping his insurance company steps up.  Also TN has a government site where you can report fuel contamination and they will investigate.  He has that information but I haven't heard back from him in a couple days.

[richfaa]

He is correct  should be many trucking companies that had the same problem if the tanks were contaminated.

[Kirk W]

17 minutes ago, FL-JOE said:

I'm hoping his insurance company steps up.  Also TN has a government site where you can report fuel contamination and they will investigate.  He has that information but I haven't heard back from him in a couple days.

Has he been in contact with Pilot/Flying J to see what they have to say?  I would sure like to hear from the person that happened to directly. It does seem strange that this would happen to only 1 user of the truck pumps if it was an equipment failure......

 

[FL-JOE]

1 hour ago, Kirk W said:

Has he been in contact with Pilot/Flying J to see what they have to say?  I would sure like to hear from the person that happened to directly. It does seem strange that this would happen to only 1 user of the truck pumps if it was an equipment failure......

 

I don't know if it did just happen to him or there may be others out there.  If he contacts that Tennessee agency and gets something going, which I assume he or his insurance will do, then those facts could come to light.

I have fueled at that Pilot and I know it is a busy truck stop.  I'm not sure how busy it would be on Thanksgiving day.  I'm sure it pumped some record number for that whole 3 or 4 day period but since we don't generally travel on that actual day I don't know if they would have extra delivery driver's working or what.  

I suspect the management knew immediately that he could have received bad fuel when he pulled forward and his truck wasn't running right.  He stayed there and contacted a mobile service initially.  I didn't talk to him long enough or question him enough to find out if he went inside to the fuel desk for advise on a mobile tech or what happen there.  I would suspect as soon as management of that Pilot suspected an issue with whatever tank his pump was pulling from they would have shut it down or switched some valves or something to cut off using that single underground contaminated tank.

Since this happened to Pilot a few years ago and they had to repair/replace numerous diesel engines I suspect all their managers have received some pretty good training on how to either prevent or at least contain these types of situations in the future.

We both will be camped in SW Florida for the winter.  Our sites are about 100 yards apart and we both should be there in another few days.  Hoping I can get more information from him after that.

[Kirk W]

3 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

Since this happened to Pilot a few years ago and they had to repair/replace numerous diesel engines I suspect all their managers have received some pretty good training on how to either prevent or at least contain these types of situations in the future.

So it has happened before? Would you share with us when and where that was? Anything else you know might be helpful too. 

[FL-JOE]

56 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

So it has happened before? Would you share with us when and where that was? Anything else you know might be helpful too. 

I'm shocked you don't know about it Kirk.  It was at a Pilot off of I-35 in Texas sometime around 2014.  Some of the trucks didn't even make it off the lot.  Big news back then.  I guess it caught my attention because I used to have a 2012 F350 back in those days pulling a fiver full time.  

I'm not sure I know anything else that would be helpful to you?

[mptjelgin]

Maybe This Story?

[Kirk W]

4 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

It was at a Pilot off of I-35 in Texas sometime around 2014.  Some of the trucks didn't even make it off the lot.

While I had forgotten about it, if you mean the story linked by Mark then I do now remember it. That was a lot different from what you are telling us about as the station recognized the problem was theirs and acted accordingly. And they also sought out any trucks who had purchased any of the bad fuel. Your story Pilot is denying any fault and as far as we know your friend was the only victim. 

[FL-JOE]

Yes they certainly did "recognize" the problem because they had a lot full of broken down big rigs with several driver's yelling at them initially.  It would have been kind of hard to deny they had contaminated fuel or try to cover something up.

From your comments I suspect you don't really believe that Pilot dispensed contaminated fuel to my friend.  I have posted this on more than one forum in an attempt to make other RVers who have diesel units aware of what happened.   Maybe if it happens to someone else they will think back on this and handle it differently, I know I certainly will.

We are heading out Friday and unfortunately need to do just over 600 miles.  I will make two stops at different Pilot stations and get fuel.  I have always used them and will continue to do so.  However, if I would start to pull away from the pump and my motor failed to run correctly I would immediately stop, go inside and purchase a diesel container, and return to the pump I used and draw a sample while my DW video recorded me doing so.  If it turned out they had contaminated fuel I suspect they would be paying me or my insurance company. 

[Kirk W]

13 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

From your comments I suspect you don't really believe that Pilot dispensed contaminated fuel to my friend.

I'm not sure why you take that position of defense for your friend, but you are wrong. I neither believe nor disbelieve your friend's story. To me, it is only a report that was passed to me second hand by someone on the internet that I have never met. It may or may not be accurate and because I do not know I take no position, but it was hardly the same as the incident in 2014 where Pilot made efforts to contact every driver who used their pumps in the period that the fuel was contaminated. I used to be a frequent customer of Flying J, now a part of Pilot but have only rarely bought fuel at Pilot. I currently tow my RV with a diesel truck but it doesn't use DEF. Any station could sell contaminated fuel no matter what type fuel your vehicle is using and I avoid small, low-volume stations when traveling for that reason. 

[Big5er]

On 11/28/2018 at 6:23 PM, FL-JOE said:

However, if I would start to pull away from the pump and my motor failed to run correctly I would immediately stop, go inside and purchase a diesel container, and return to the pump I used and draw a sample while my DW video recorded me doing so.  If it turned out they had contaminated fuel I suspect they would be paying me or my insurance company. 

As a supposed ex-cop you should know that filming yourself pumping diesel will prove nothing (other than the fact that you pumped diesel). Unless you monitor that container every second, from pump to test, anyone could have tampered with it. And where do you take diesel to have it tested? Who is "certified" to test diesel? It's not your mechanic. What lab will you take it to? 

The odds of Def being mixed into the diesel tank at the truck stop is extremely rare. Def is not transported by the same tanker that transports the fuel and the fittings at the tanks are totally different and are not compatible with each other. Fuel tankers use brass and aluminum fittings while DEF uses stainless steel. 

If they have bad fuel, there will be more than one person complaining. You know the old saying: There is strength in numbers. In the situation Kirk mentioned it sounds like there were enough people with issues, that the problem was obvious. And as Kirk mentioned Flying J/Pilot stepped up and did the right thing. Flying J/Pilot would obviously step up and take responsibility for this issue too, if there really was one. Gotta wonder what makes your friends situation different? 

[mptjelgin]

21 minutes ago, Big5er said:

And where do you take diesel to have it tested? Who is "certified" to test diesel? It's not your mechanic. What lab will you take it to? 

To address only this part of the question, I'd take it to the dealer where I bought the truck (Ford in my case).  They absolutely have the equipment to test for DEF in diesel as that is one of the first things they do in the case of a fuel system issue. Because they very specifically deny warranty coverage on the engine in the case of DEF contaminated fuel.  I imagine that most any dealer who sells/services diesel trucks have the capability to test for fuel contamination. 

[Big5er]

14 minutes ago, mptjelgin said:

To address only this part of the question, I'd take it to the dealer where I bought the truck (Ford in my case).  They absolutely have the equipment to test for DEF in diesel as that is one of the first things they do in the case of a fuel system issue. Because they very specifically deny warranty coverage on the engine in the case of DEF contaminated fuel.  I imagine that most any dealer who sells/services diesel trucks have the capability to test for fuel contamination. 

Just to play the Devils' Advocate:

I'm sure they will test your fuel to void the warranty and limit their costs to repair it but will they test a sample you brought in from an unknown source, in a fuel can? Would their "test" hold up in court against Flying J/Pilot? Sure a mechanic can run a machine that sits in the corner of the shop, but will he be able to testify to the machines calibration? Was there a test sample run prior to the test? Is there a procedure to protect against cross contamination? Is the machine secured against tampering? Exactly which employee handled the sample before it was tested? Exactly what was in that sample? Any other contaminants? Those are the sort of questions that will come up if lawyers get involved. How involved in a lawsuit will a dealer will go? I wonder if a dealership tested sample would even see a courtroom. If the goal is to force Flying J/Pilot to admit an issue that they deny exists, I'd bet you are gonna need a lab tested sample. And even then proving its' authenticity would be hard.

[mptjelgin]

1 hour ago, Big5er said:

Just to play the Devils' Advocate:

I'm sure they will test your fuel to void the warranty and limit their costs to repair it but will they test a sample you brought in from an unknown source, in a fuel can? Would their "test" hold up in court against Flying J/Pilot? Sure a mechanic can run a machine that sits in the corner of the shop, but will he be able to testify to the machines calibration? Was there a test sample run prior to the test? Is there a procedure to protect against cross contamination? Is the machine secured against tampering? Exactly which employee handled the sample before it was tested? Exactly what was in that sample? Any other contaminants? Those are the sort of questions that will come up if lawyers get involved. How involved in a lawsuit will a dealer will go? I wonder if a dealership tested sample would even see a courtroom. If the goal is to force Flying J/Pilot to admit an issue that they deny exists, I'd bet you are gonna need a lab tested sample. And even then proving its' authenticity would be hard.

I see that you want to treat this as if it ends up as a full-blown legal case and that is fine. That is the world you live in.

What I'm saying is that DEF contamination is not an uncommon occurrence, and at least in the case of Ford they will deny warranty coverage on a $10,000+ dollar high-pressure fuel system repair based on their evaluation and testing. I've read their testing procedure and it is not all that complex or difficult to understand. 

I didn't have much trouble finding independent labs that will conduct similar tests. As far as your more detailed "would it hold up in a court of law" and chain of custody questions, I have no idea. But getting the fuel tested is not an difficult task and would seem to be a reasonable first step given the expense of the repair.  

[Kirk W]

10 hours ago, mptjelgin said:

What I'm saying is that DEF contamination is not an uncommon occurrence,

Now you have my interest. I tow my RV with a diesel that is pre--DEF and I sure do not want any of it in my fuel. Tell us more about where, when, and how that happens? 

[mptjelgin]

5 minutes ago, Kirk W said:

Now you have my interest. I tow my RV with a diesel that is pre--DEF and I sure do not want any of it in my fuel. Tell us more about where, when, and how that happens? 

Better clarify myself here. It is certainly not a common occurrence, but it apparently happens enough that the dealers test for fuel contamination in any case of the fuel system problem, and find DEF enough that it is a "known issue" and grounds for revoking the warranty. Gasoline in the diesel is another issue that is tested for. 

But my understanding is that it is virtually always a case of a careless owner accidentally introducing DEF into their own fuel tank. The fill caps, while very different, are right next to each other in my new truck. I can see where someone, in an "Oh sh!#" moment could accidentally put DEF into the fuel. And any DEF into the diesel fuel is very bad news. 

I never read where DEF contamination at the pump is an issue, but could certainly be wrong.  

[Ray,IN]

FWIW, DEF contains approx 67% water, some brands contain more, however DEF is high corrosive to some metals.

[Kirk W]

Quote

Diesel Exhaust Fluid is formulated with 32.5 percent urea and 67.5 percent deionized water. 

From the Cummins Engine website:

6 Answers About Diesel Exhaust Fluid

[Dollytrolley]

Old time Cat mechanic that passed away last year gave me some pretty sage Diesel-advice......

He advised that l NEVER..... NEVER EVER...... fuel up ANYWHERE that has ANY hose dispensed DEF......

He said IF the fuel station does NOT have hose dispensed DEF then they do NOT have a in-ground DEF tank fill point to miss fuel from a DEF tanker......

Then he would grin and of course without any hose-dispensed-DEF any old geezer would have to go inside and buy a jug of DEF and then go pour it into the truck diesel tank.......way too much work for a geezer......

I ask .......what about folks with newer DEF rigs.......he would grin and say "oh they have lots of money to spare....and ....they will need all the money they have to keep up with a DEF rig......

Drive on.......(DEF=$_$¢$$$$)

[Blues]

On 11/28/2018 at 6:36 AM, FL-JOE said:

I'm hoping his insurance company steps up. 

I'm curious--what type of insurance would cover this? 

[FL-JOE]

My buddy sent me a text late last night letting me know that his auto insurance (Progressive) has now agreed to cover the repair bill.  They sent some type of field agent or adjuster out to the dealership where he was able to examine the fuel samples and damaged parts that were obviously damaged by DEF exposure.  

Yesterday we did 606 miles in an effort to arrive at our winter site a day early.  I fueled once at a Pilot on I-10 and then the last time at a Flying J on I-75, all in Florida.  As usual all of my DEF came from Walmart though since I do not get it at the pump.