5th Wheel vs Travel Trailer

[FL-JOE]

15 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

Do not distort what I am saying. We bought back in 1998 when slides were not as prevalent as today and they were still working out bugs. Also, chassis weight ratings have increased and we would most likely buy something with a slide or two if buying today, but there were valid reasons for our choice at that time. My point was not that anyone should do what I did, only that they should do what suits them, and not base their choice on a majority vote. People have been living fulltime in RVs for far longer than slides have been available in RVs. The Peterson's, founders of Escapees started with a 30+' Airstream which not only didn't have any slides, they had a daughter living with them (Cathy Carr). It is funny how things we used to think of as luxuries or even dreams are now considered by many of us to be necessities. 

Relax Kirk, I wasn't trying to distort what you were saying.  Just trying to provide some advise to OP.  I'm sure you had all kinds of reasons for buying RVs without slides and that worked for you in your situation.  

[trailertraveler]

46 minutes ago, mptjelgin said:

In the single rear wheel (SRW) trucks, there is little difference in cost or ride between the 3/4 ton trucks (F-250 for Ford) and 1 ton trucks (F-350). They are identical trucks in terms of size, with just minor changes to suspension, tires, etc. What you do get with the F-350 is a higher allowable weight on the rear axle which is handy, especially if you are considering a fifth-wheel trailer.  A dually is obviously an entirely different animal, but if you do start looking at 3/4 ton trucks don't dismiss the SRW one-ton trucks.

This has been my observation also. When comparing the 250/2500 to the 350/3500, some of the extras for towing on the 250/2500 were standard on the 350/3500.

It seems to me that even when comparing the differences in dimensions between the 150/1500 and the 250/2500 and SRW 350/3500; the biggest difference is in the height. For some makes the height will be greater for the 4x4 than the 2x4. Width seems to be similar for all. Differences in length seem to be primarily due to the cab configuration (standard, extended, crew) and bed length. The longer the wheelbase, the more stable it is towing longer trailers. With a 5th wheel a longer bed helps prevent contact between the truck and trailer when backing. With a short bed, a slider 5th wheel hitch is recommended.

[Mr. Camper]

We began with a RAM 1500 gas engine, then moved to a RAM 2500 gas and finally to our current RAM 2500 Turbo Diesel.  We own a 27' TT with two opposing slides.  We looked at and discounted a 5er because it wouldn't work for us.  Our preference is a TT.  We started with a 24', then moved to a 33' TT and now have a 27' TT.  For a variety of reasons, it's what we prefer.  We have nothing against 5ers or long TTs.  The 27' has everything we want or need and the RAM pulls it easily.  You have to look at your needs and decide what they are and what will work for you after you decide on the vehicle you wish to tow it with.  Just be sure that it can easily pull anything you eventually purchase.  

[Second Chance]

I've already replied regarding the space concept, but I have experience with the (often) costly predicament of not having enough tow vehicle. When I got back into RVing after a 30 year break, I had a Chevy Tahoe. The Tahoe is built on Chevy's 1/2-ton truck chassis and has the same engine and transmission as their 1500 series trucks (5.3 liter gas and 4-speed automatic in the model year we had). We purchased a 26' travel trailer that had a GVWR around 7,400 pounds and was about 6,800 lbs. the way we loaded. With a decent WD hitch, the trailer handled OK (we still felt big trucks pass), but the 5.3 liter gas V8 struggled on grades and against headwinds. 

We found a new 2013 GMC 2500HD diesel still on a dealer's lot as the 2014s were coming out and got a really good deal. Talk about a tow monster! The move to the 3/4-ton suspension and the diesel motor was a night-and-day contrast with the Tahoe. We were happy campers... literally.

Then, we made the decision to full-time and bought the fifth wheel. Per the CAT scales, the 2500HD had about 3,300 lbs rear axle capacity left with full fuel, me in the driver's seat, and an Andersen hitch in the bed (that's a lot for a 3/4-ton truck - but that's how it was configured). Loaded for full-timing, our 13,990 GVWR fifth wheel consistently put 3,000 - 3,100 lbs. on the pin and was within 200 - 300 lbs. of the rear axle weight rating on the truck. While still within specs, this wasn't as much of a safety margin as I like to have. There was also the constant nagging concern of "what would happen if I lost a rear tire on the truck?"

We had been looking at upgrading to a 1-ton, preferably a DRW, but it was just too much money to eat the depreciation on a truck we bought new and pay the difference on a new truck. About 18 months into our full-time adventure, I had the 2500HD back at the dealer where we purchased it for service. Tony, who sold us the truck, had become a friend and liked to keep up with our travels so I went to find him to pass the time while the truck was back in the shop. Long story short, they had taken an F350 DRW diesel CC long bed in on trade and it was sitting on the lot. The Ford was one model year older than the GMC, but had 3,000 fewer miles on it (28K vs. 31K on the GMC - that's nothing for diesel trucks). Tony was concerned that it was going to take them a while to move the Ford on a GMC lot. I jokingly said, "Trade you even." He talked to the sales manager and everyone agreed! The next day we dropped a hitch in the factory puck system on the F350 and hit the road. My wife tells everyone that I'll let her buy more than four rolls of toilet paper now.

You may have plans in your head now, but things change (as they did with us). There's a saying in "RV World" that goes, "Buy your last RV first." This means, avoid a string of money and depreciation-eating trades and buy what you'll be happy with in the long run first. The same goes for tow vehicles. We lucked out in trading for the F350. Had we not stumbled into that deal, we'd still be living on the edge with a truck that was barely capable of carrying the pin weight of our home on wheels. Had we started out with at least a 1-ton single rear wheel (with an extra 1,000 lbs. or so of payload), we'd probably still have the same truck and be OK with it.

Rob

[Alice]

Good advice from everyone and I greatly appreciate it.  I'll make sure my husband reads this thread.  Right now, we're upside down on the Colorado we have, so we won't be able trade it off for probably another year+.   That, and we're still 5 years out from retirement probably, so the Colorado, with it's great mileage for a truck, needs to stay for a while.  Probably next year we'll seriously start looking at something to be a tow vehicle and we'll keep all this in mind as we look. 

New isn't necessary, but I don't want a ton of miles.  All the fancy bells and whistles we don't want.  One thing we liked about the Colorado is it didn't have the fancy touch-screen computer in it controlling everything.  One more thing to go wrong!  So a work-truck is fine with us, just maybe not with 5 full years to go.  We will buy in the next year or two though, so as to have it partly paid off when we retire. 

[Kirk W]

2 hours ago, Alice said:

That, and we're still 5 years out from retirement probably, so the Colorado, with it's great mileage for a truck, needs to stay for a while. 

With that much lead time, you may want to just go with something inexpensive and lightweight for now and use that to get some experience while you continue to shop/research. You are a wise couple to start your studies and planning early.

[Alice]

17 minutes ago, Kirk Wood said:

With that much lead time, you may want to just go with something inexpensive and lightweight for now and use that to get some experience while you continue to shop/research. You are a wise couple to start your studies and planning early. 

Thanks.  I know we may be starting a bit too early.  But that's part of why we want to get a small, used, trailer that is light enough to use now with the Colorado, to get our feet wet.  Also, we figured if we find what we like now...well by the time we're ready to buy, maybe we'll find it again, only by then it'll be cheaper at 3-4 years old. 

[kb0zke]

Five years out is about where we started our researching. We started with pretty much of an open mind about what to get. At first we ignored motor homes because they use so much fuel. Then we realized that a MH could tow a more fuel-efficient vehicle, and the RV (MH or towable) would only go from campground to campground. The other vehicle would do all of the running around. That really opened our eyes. Long story short, we bought a 20-year-old Foretravel with no slides. We've been happily living in it ever since. We're pretty much sold on no slides for the next one, too.

We had a Mercury Mountaineer that could tow 5000 pounds, so our learner trailer was a Heartland mpg. FAR too small for full-timing, but big enough for a few longer trips to see if we could survive in a smaller space. I'd suggest that you find something that your Colorado can tow, whether a 5'er or TT or even a popup, and go have some fun. Buy used and you can probably sell it for almost what you paid for it. If you buy new you may take a bigger depreciation hit, although we were lucky and sold our mpg for almost what we paid for it after nearly two years. We consigned it at the dealership where we bought it and had it serviced, so they were able to get top dollar for us.

[Kirk W]

9 hours ago, kb0zke said:

Five years out is about where we started our researching.

That's about when we did also but we had friends who retired and went on the road about 15 years ahead of us who we watched and envied for all of those years and they were our main inspiration to do it. We dreamed of doing it for at least 10 years because of the experiences of our friends. And we had owned RVs for a long time before that. 

[Alice]

Really, the only reason we're discounting motor homes is cost.  They're just so expensive.  Granted, we are now talking upgrading the truck, which will be expensive (but if we do that in the next year or so it will mostly be paid off by the time we retire Alternatively, we wait until retirement and trade in both our current vehicles, which would take a decent bite out of the cost.) and either a more expensive TT or perhaps a 5th wheel, which is again, more expensive than our original TT idea (we were looking at ones that ran new like $25k or less, but now we realize we're going to have to upgrade at a minimum to a better-built, sturdier one for full-time - my current favorite is Grand Design).  But even then, we're hoping to spend around $60k our of our retirement to pay off the truck and buy the trailer - preferably used.  Turns out, the taxes are going to take quite a bite from our lump-sum retirement we're actually spending on this, so...lower cost is better.  And while I realize $60k would buy a decent used motor home, we still need a toad.  I suppose we could trade our two vehicles we have now on a small car though and really not owe that much, even buying new there.

Hmmm...Did I just talk myself out of the money argument? 

We're neither terribly mechanically inclined, but auto mechanics are everywhere.  Is it more expensive to deal with mechanical issues on a MH?  Where do you take them to get the oil changed, etc?  Maybe we should broaden our horizons.

It's possible the biggest negative of a MH is the normally teeny-tiny bathrooms, and lack of a "bedroom" - we like the idea of a door in case one of us wants to get up or stay up and the other wants to watch TV or something...I'm not sure how "big" I'd want to go on one of those.  Probably still not more than 32 feet or so.

Guess we should look at some floor plans there too.

*****************Update***************

Okay...looked at some floorplans and older MH on RV Trader...down to teeny tiny bathrooms as the only issue maybe.    Hard to say without actually going in some.  I know hubby had problems with the showers in the few we had looked at - as in he couldn't close the doors!  But I guess that it can't hurt to look at those too...

Darn. 

 

[sandsys]

4 hours ago, Alice said:

Okay...looked at some floorplans and older MH on RV Trader...down to teeny tiny bathrooms as the only issue maybe.    Hard to say without actually going in some.  I know hubby had problems with the showers in the few we had looked at - as in he couldn't close the doors! 

We owned two different Winnebago motorhomes and they both had good sized bathrooms and showers. Dave is tall and I am fat and the showers worked for both of us.

Linda

[Optimistic Paranoid]

5 hours ago, Alice said:

We're neither terribly mechanically inclined, but auto mechanics are everywhere.  Is it more expensive to deal with mechanical issues on a MH?  Where do you take them to get the oil changed, etc?  Maybe we should broaden our horizons.

They're all of them built on truck chassis supplied by Ford or - I think - GM. While not every Ford or GM dealer will work on one, the ones that are used to working on larger trucks will.  Or you can take them to any independent truck repair garage.  Or take them to an RV dealer as a last resort.

[Optimistic Paranoid]

5 hours ago, Alice said:

Okay...looked at some floorplans and older MH on RV Trader...down to teeny tiny bathrooms as the only issue maybe.    Hard to say without actually going in some.  I know hubby had problems with the showers in the few we had looked at - as in he couldn't close the doors!  But I guess that it can't hurt to look at those too...

Darn. 

 

Consider one with a wet bath

[Alice]

24 minutes ago, Optimistic Paranoid said:

Consider one with a wet bath

Unless they make them a lot bigger than we've seen, that's pretty much a deal-killer actually.  So far I haven't seen a wet bath that was comfortable for either him or me.  But of course, we haven't looked at MH with them.  I'd live with one short-term, but not for full-time. 

I've mentioned before, we're not little people.  I've seen plenty of WC's where you couldn't sit on the commode and close the door.  Husband was in one at the RV show where the doorknob hit his upper arm.  If you can't move, you can't...you know.  Same with showers.  He's been in several where he could stand one direction, but his shoulders knocked the door open if he tried to turn around.  We're both way more comfortable with the rear bath floor plans or the decent corner showers like in most 5th wheels.  His big shoulders and my big hiney need space!

BTW John, I love your tag lines! 

[Kirk W]

15 minutes ago, Optimistic Paranoid said:

They're all of them built on truck chassis supplied by Ford or - I think - GM.

That isn't true today as Ford builds a line of chassis for class A motorhomes that are significantly different from those used for trucks. That has been the case since 1999. They do have a lot in common with a truck chassis.

 

 

 

[Kirk W]

51 minutes ago, Alice said:

We're both way more comfortable with the rear bath floor plans or the decent corner showers like in most 5th wheels. 

It has been a while since I last shopped motorhomes, but there used to be both rear bath models and some with a walk-through bath just ahead of the rear bedroom. Those were much roomier than the majority of floor plan bathrooms. Newmar's 2019 Canyon Star, 3911 has a shower that is 48" X 36" in a walk through. The Tiffin Open Road Allegro has a rear bath that looks to be of similar size.

As to a wet bath, Pam & I are not large people yet we have never seen an RV with a "wet bath" which we would be willing to use for very long.  The entire reason for a wet bath design is to conserve space. They are typically found in the smallest fo RVs of any type. Back when we were much younger and more flexible, we might well have been happy with one of them, but not today with both of us into our mid 70's. If you are into multi-tasking then you might want one as you could, potty, shower, and brush your teeth, all in one operation!  🤣

 

[Alice]

2 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

Newmar's 2019 Canyon Star, 3911 has a shower that is 48" X 36" in a walk through. The Tiffin Open Road Allegro has a rear bath that looks to be of similar size.

Yowsa!  Those are expensive! Beautiful and roomy, but expensive.  

[RV_]

Alice, I'm with you on trailers and we are hooked on 5th wheels for both the room, and the stability. But I just read something I need to quote here from another Escapees forum, by the person advocating motor homes here:

" An honest and truly knowledgeable person would realize that every type of RV has both advantages and disadvantages. We need to realize that the best choice for ourselves is not necessarily the best for anyone else."

You see, folks tend to project what they do on others. Don't worry as many folks take a loss on their first rig. even if they got the type right and are much more satisfied with their second rig. I would much rather back a trailer in than a motor home. One other issue with them is that you can't back up more than a few feet with the toad still hooked up. You certainly can't back up a motor home into a back in trailer park slot with the toad still hooked up. You have to try fivers out yourself. Most folks have experience backing bumper pull boats and utility trailers and travel trailers break much the same. 5th wheels break in turns much more slowly and smoothly IMO.

I always recommend folks spend under $100 and join the RV Consumers group. They do a great job of making clear carrying capacity so you don't end up buying an RV that is overloaded empty. Some folks don't want to learn all the terms and things that are rated and are looking for a guide that will clearly tell you what to buy. They don't and that may be why there is no refund. I bought their ratings books because they are also reasonably accurate on rating the bottom half of RVs. So when buying I immediately eliminated half the brands/models from wasting my time and I could focus on the ratings I was interested in. Find them here: https://rv.org/collections/all

Get started with RV consumers group with these free news and articles: https://rv.org/blogs/news

I'd also like to bring up another point that Motorhomers hate hearing. You may have heard they like being able to use the restroom while underway or cooking etc. And even the advantage of the grandchildren able to play on the floor. I am horrified whenever I hear those. Let me explain. There is no motorhome that is crash tested for the cabins. Many have the seat belts anchored to the sidewall on one side and only one anchored to the chassis. Both trailers and motor homes, except for old fashioned full steel framed buses crumble in roll overs. When any RV has a serious collision, or rollover everything in it goes flying. Those cabinets and accessories can and do fly off the walls. What happens to and adult or child on the way to the bathroom while underway if there is an accident? NO chance in a serious collision. Most motor homes do not have full cages around the front even, and those that do never get crash tested because the NHTSA only tests the chassis.

Your choice of trailer puts you in a passenger vehicle that is crash tested with airbags and many times air bags all around you.  You can't walk around or go to the bathroom in a passenger vehicle you have to pull over and use the trailer facilities. That means you are always safely buckled in. Your van or truck towing your trailer has been side crash tested and front rear and angle crash tested. If you are wearing your seat belt in even a serious wreck your chances of survival are way up there. Don't get me wrong, trailers do crumble and stuff fly around in accidents, but you are not riding in them, you are in a safety engineered passenger car, van, SUV, or truck. All members of my family and friends riding in my vehicles are strapped in at all times. Just google motor home wrecks and then 5th wheel wrecks and you'll see what I mean.

So being retired military, safety is number one. All of the results of accident pictures you can find on the Internet were driven by people who thought they were good enough drivers not to have those wrecks. All of us acknowledge the possibility and protect our investment by buying insurance.

So check out RV.org and for a little have a good indicator of which RVs of any type not to buy. I just do not prefer to ride in a portable building mounted on a chassis at highway speeds. Motorhome or trailer. I'll take the truck.

Lastly, when we full timed big heavy duty trucks were more rare pulling RV trailers of either type. So My choice was a 1 ton Dodge Ram Diesel Dually truck. You really can't beat the Cummins engines. I also prefer long beds even though that means parking way in the back when not hooked up and shopping in the truck. Now that we part time we have a tiny 19 foot Scamp fifth wheel with almost no storage and a teeny bathroom. I also finally found a good low mileage long bed with a 2005-2007 Cummins 5.9 engine, their first quiet diesel with no exhaust fluid which can tow a medium to small trailer selected carefully. The one ton maybe more but today I'd opt for a large fiver and a heavy duty truck.  I would get a heavy duty truck because they are readily available today cheaper than new light duty trucks. Rule number 1. you can never have too much truck. Rule number 2. See rule number one.

Safe Travels!

[kb0zke]

Alice, here's the floorplan for our coach:  http://www.beamalarm.com/foretravel-links/models/1993_foretravel_u300-u280_special_edition_floorplan.html

This is called a "walk-thru bath" because when both doors are open you have a wide aisle between the bedroom and kitchen/dining area. With the door between the bath and living area closed you have a large bath with access to the bedroom. With both doors closed you still have a large bath.

We've been fulltiming in this coach for four years now. NO space issues.

[Alice]

33 minutes ago, RV_ said:

I'd also like to bring up another point that Motorhomers hate hearing. You may have heard they like being able to use the restroom while underway or cooking etc. And even the advantage of the grandchildren able to play on the floor. I am horrified whenever I hear those. Let me explain. There is no motorhome that is crash tested for the cabins. Many have the seat belts anchored to the sidewall on one side and only one anchored to the chassis. Both trailers and motor homes, except for old fashioned full steel framed buses crumble in roll overs. When any RV has a serious collision, or rollover everything in it goes flying. Those cabinets and accessories can and do fly off the walls. What happens to and adult or child on the way to the bathroom while underway if there is an accident? NO chance in a serious collision. Most motor homes do not have full cages around the front even, and those that do never get crash tested because the NHTSA only tests the chassis.

You have a good point about flying objects, but I can assure you, neither my husband nor I will be removing our seat belts while moving,  much less walking around.  That's kind of nuts,  not too mention illegal where I live. 

[RV_]

Alice, Me too. 

rm.w/aview, YW! Pass it forward!

 

[OregonJim]

On 9/20/2018 at 7:40 AM, Alice said:

 

We're neither terribly mechanically inclined, but auto mechanics are everywhere.  Is it more expensive to deal with mechanical issues on a MH?  Where do you take them to get the oil changed, etc?  Maybe we should broaden our horizons.

 

One thing that I hardly ever see mentioned, and what tipped us toward a motorhome rather than a 5er, is mileage.  With a motorhome and toad, the mileage you rack up on the motorhome is only going from point A to point B.  Then the toad is used for all the sight-seeing and running around.  The motorhome might see 7k mi/yr, while the toad can easily exceed 25k mi/yr.  With a 5er, the tow vehicle racks up ALL that mileage - 30k+.  Not so much of an issue with a diesel rig, but certainly worth considering if you're going gas.

 

-Jim

 

[RV_]

They still make gas trucks????

😯

[Alice]

6 hours ago, RV_ said:

They still make gas trucks????

😯

Truthfully,  we hadn't even considered a diesel truck - ever.  Why should we?

[Kirk W]

1 hour ago, Alice said:

Truthfully,  we hadn't even considered a diesel truck - ever.  Why should we?

Diesels do have better pulling power, particularly on steep grades and they have a longer life but they also weigh more and cost a lot more. You can buy a lot of gasoline for the difference in price if you are buying new.