Engine Trouble Saga

[Chad Heiser]

Long post coming, continue at your own risk................................................

Well, our trip to North Dakota in July for a family reunion went great (at least until we started home).  The second day of our trip home we were running from Rawlins, WY to Wendover, NV.  I noticed the truck was running slightly hotter than it usually did.  This wasn't a drastic difference, but it was about 20 degrees or so hotter than normal.  The truck was running fine otherwise, so I noted it but didn't really worry about it (I chalked it up to an unusually hot day in my mind).  We pulled into the KOA in Wendover and set up for the night. 

The next morning, I started the truck up and let it idle while I finished breaking camp.  I watched the temp gauge and everything was normal (no elevated temperature reading at all).  I hooked up and headed out.  I didn't do a full pre-trip because I had just driven two straight days of long highway miles with no issues (other than the slightly elevated temperature the previous day that didn't seem to be present again this morning).  We pulled onto I80 and as soon as I accelerated up to highway speed, the temp gauge started climbing drastically.  I got all kinds of warning lights and buzzers.  I immediately pulled off to the side of the highway (luckily there was a wide shoulder).  I let things cool down and checked my coolant level.  Well, there was no coolant in the reservoir (I should have done my pre-trip 🙁). 

I walked the mile and a half or so back into Wendover to the Flying J and bought 4 gallons of coolant.  It was another hot day, so I wasn't looking forward to the walk back.  I asked around at the gas pumps and found a guy willing to give me a ride back out to my rig (where my DW was sitting waiting for me).  Very nice of him and I was very appreciative.

I dumped three gallons of coolant into the reservoir before I got it to register a level again.  I guess I was a little low 😨.  I went to start the truck and just got click, click, click when I turned the key.  When it rains it pours 😖.  Luckily I have a separate house battery bank in the truck that I can combine with the chassis bank with the push of a button on the dash.  I hit the button, turned the key and the truck started.  Apparently leaving the emergency blinkers going for almost two hours isn't great on an almost 6 year old chassis battery bank. 

I let the truck idle for a while and the temps seemed to hold.  The good Samaritan who gave me a ride back to the rig informed me there was another exit just over the rise that would lead me back to Wendover.  I decided to run back into Wendover to make sure temps would hold.  I ran back to the Flying J to buy some more coolant (just in case).  The truck was holding normal temps and all appeared well other than the fact my engine was eating coolant for some reason.  I couldn't find any obvious leaks and my oil level was normal, so I couldn't really figure out where the coolant was going.  I just wanted to get home with no more issues. 

We headed out across the desert and drove to Reno and spent the night.  No temperature issues on this leg of the trip, but my oil pressure was now running low.  That answered the question as to where the coolant was going - at least in my mind I figured it was going into the motor and thinning my oil out.  My oil level was not rising though, so the coolant (and oil) still had to be leaking out somewhere, but I couldn't find anything obvious.  We hit the road again the next morning and made it home Monday evening (July 9th) - thankfully 😀.  Oil pressure was still low, but temps were holding.  I got everything put away in my shop and thanked my lucky stars we made it home.  I didn't have time to look at anything before going back to work, but I knew I had to get it into the shop and get it looked at.

I went to work Tuesday morning and called my usual local independent shop and explained my issue.  They had just lost some mechanics and didn't have the capacity to dig into my issue.  I was worried it was going to be a major issue, so I decided to take it to my nearest Kenworth dealer (which was about two hours away from my house).  I called them and set up an appointment for Saturday (July 21st).  I worked 12 plus hour days every day during the next two weeks, so I didn't have the time (or the energy) to look at anything for myself before then or to get the truck to them any sooner.

Saturday (21st) I went to my shop and pulled the cardboard I always put under the truck out.  I have always had a very small rear main seal leak that would drip about one drop of oil every couple of days or so.  This is why I used the cardboard to keep my shop floor clean.  There was about a 6 inch puddle of oil on the cardboard where there would normally be only a couple of drops from the normal rear main seal leak.  Apparently the coolant thinned the oil enough to allow more of it to make it through the leaky seal.  This explained why my oil level wasn't rising even though coolant was leaking into it.  My oil level was actually staying constant, so apparently the leaky seal was just enough of a leak to allow the thinned out oil to escape enough to keep the level constant in the motor.  I added some more coolant for good measure and headed to the dealer.  Made it with no real issues, but I obviously had problems that needed to be dealt with.  I was hoping for something relatively small, but I was preparing myself for the dread "I" word (in frame).  My truck has 868000 (+) miles on it and I have no history on it before I bought it 6 years ago with 827000 miles on it.

The dealer called me mid week the next week and gave me the bad news.  Coolant was going into the motor from the #2 cylinder between the piston and the liner.  Also noticed #5 was scored.  Pulled the heads and and found scratches on all the cylinders and the #2 injector tube was the culprit for the leaking coolant.  Pulled the pistons and liners and found #2 liner had a hole all the way through it.  There was a lot more little stuff, but basically it was time for an in frame.  Pretty much everything but the crank on the inside of the motor was going to be replaced.  The crank was going to be pulled and polished/examined to make sure it was still good too.  The initial diagnostics also found the turbo had some problems and needed to be replaced.  They gave me an estimate, which while it was a big number, was reasonable for the amount of work involved.  I called around to a few other shops to confirm the pricing was within reason (I had no experience to base this on).  I also spoke with my uncle who is an OTR trucker with 2 million miles (and two in frames) on his '99 KW W900.  After my conversations, the estimate was looking better and better (but still a big number).  I had them go ahead with the work. 

I also figured since it was in the shop anyway, I would have them fix that pesky rear main seal.  Oh and while the transmission was off, why not replace the clutch and all the related clutch hardware (I had no idea when the clutch was last looked at).  Oh and remember those batteries, well they needed to be replaced.  Oh and one more thing, the fuel sending unit started acting wonky at the beginning of the ND trip so might as well replace that too.  None of this stuff was absolutely necessary, but I figured if the motor was going to be remaned then why not make sure everything else around it was also in tip top shape.  The shop was happy to do the work (once I gave them half the money down on the estimate).  I told them we had our next trip planned for August 17th (about three weeks away).  They said that would be no problem (more on this later).

They ordered all the parts and once they showed up (the week of July 30th) they started the work of rebuilding the motor.  They had the motor all done and put together by the end of that week.  They went to test drive it and discovered one of the new injectors was bad 😱.  A new one couldn't get ordered until Monday August 6.  They order the replacement injector, pulled the top end apart again, replaced it and put everything back together.  They test drove it again and the motor was running rough.  They did a bunch of troubleshooting for several days and couldn't figure out what the issue was.  They thought maybe the ECM was bad so they ordered up a test ECM to rule that out.  I didn't think this was the problem because I had replaced the ECM three years prior and didn't figure it would go bad again in such a short time with so little mileage on it, but they had to rule it out. 

Now we are into the week of the 13th and we are supposed to leave on the 17th for our next trip.  The test ECM didn't change anything.  They called in the Cummins rep to get a second opinion.  Some more trouble shooting and they find metal shavings in the fuel system (which is causing the rough running).  The Cummins rep tells them to pull the fuel pump and make sure it is still good and hasn't started to grenade and shoot metal into the system.  They do and find it is not the cause of the metal shavings, but it is on its last leg.  They figure it is going to go at any time so they recommend I have it replaced.  Sure why not.  Everything else on the motor is going to be new, so why not the fuel pump too.  Its only money 😉.

Ultimately they find the source of the metal shavings.  Apparently when the new heads came from Cummins, they weren't blown out.  When the heads were drilled out at the factory, they didn't clean them completely and left small shavings in them.  The mechanics assumed the brand new heads were cleaned out because they were plugged and pristine when they arrived.  You know what happens when you assume 😥.  Now that the source of the metal shavings was determined they decide to basically do another top end on the newly rebuilt motor.  A bunch more parts got ordered, but there was no way to get the work done before our trip.  On to plan B for the trip which I will describe in another topic (I figure this tale is long enough already - hopefully it is interesting enough to keep you reading).

All the parts come in and the work gets done.  This time everything runs great once it is put back together.  All my other requested work is completed and the truck is ready for me to pick it up.  Luckily all the additional diagnostic work and repair work after the motor was put together the first time is on Cummins' dime under warranty (and oh what a DIME it was, so I was glad it wasn't mine).  Another good reason to have a dealer with lots of resources do all this work.  

I finally picked the truck up Thursday August 21st.  I had a two hour drive of both freeway and two lane windy twist road to put it through its paces on the way home.  The truck ran great.  While it was a bobtail trip, the truck definitely feels like it has a lot more "pep" than it has ever had in the past.  My mileage was also improved (at least from the computer readout) over anything I had ever recorded in the past.  It basically feels like a new truck to me.  The clutch replacement was done with an "easy pedal" so the clutch pedal is much nicer/lighter than it used to be as well (which is a very nice and unexpected improvement).  I couldn't be any happier with the work.

This story is the Reader's Digest condensed version.  Overall, the dealer did a great job and kept me up to date with everything that was happening.  Other than not catching the metal shavings in the new heads (which under the circumstances I don't blame the dealer for), they did a great job.  They were all doing their best to give my RV Hauler a basically brand new, trouble free motor.  They all liked the idea of pulling an RV with an HDT and wanted mine to be as trouble free as they could make it for me.  I would definitely recommend Norcal Kenworth in Sacramento to anyone in need in the area.  I had them do some work for me when I first bought the truck, but hadn't been back to them in years because they are so far away from me.  I think the distance won't keep me away from them anymore.  Although hopefully I won't need anymore major work done for a long, long time 😉.

I was always up in the air as to whether this truck would be my forever truck. I really like the looks of my T2000, but it is an older truck and sometimes I think it would be nice to have a new truck.  I figured I would get to retirement and make that decision.  I knew with the mileage on my truck, an in frame was looming out there in my future at some point.  I hoped It would hold off until I retired and then I could make the decision about whether I planned to keep the truck or buy something newer.  My plan was to make that decision and if it was a keeper, then do the in frame as a preventative measure for peace of mind.  This has now made that decision much easier.  I love my T2000 and now that I know my motor is basically new, it is definitely my forever truck.  Now when I retire it will get a new bed and a new paint job to make it look on the outside as good as it does underneath (oh did I mention they repainted the motor as part of the in frame 😉).

Hopefully some of you stuck with me to the end of this tale.

[dblr]

Chad as a fellow T2000 owner I found this tale very interesting. Glad all has turned out for the best and enjoy your ( new ) truck

[hone eagle]

Thanks for that read,I would of done the same.

[rickeieio]

Chad,

Your coolant was going directly into the cylinder, and out the exhaust as steam.  It never made it to the oil.  If coolant DID make it to the oil, it would either go to the bottom of the pan, or cause the oil to become brown and milky looking.

 It's very unlikely the oil level ever got high enough to have leaked out the rear main seal.  It was seeping past while under pressure, when the engine was running, then running down to mark it's spot on your floor.

It sounds like you now have a true "forever truck".  And a good looking one to boot.

[noteven]

Good decisions Chad - our throw away culture says otherwise but you are often better off repairing a heavy truck you know than starting over...

[HERO Maker]

Ouch!  And that comment is probably meant for the cost factor here also.  Glad it is working out for you and now you're ready to go - for a long time.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

Yikes, 

Glad you made it home though.  Time to save for the matching paint job!

[Chad Heiser]

I have been very happy with this truck overall.  I basically gutted and redid the interior when I bought it.  Now the motor/driveline has also been gutted and redone.  The only thing left is making the exterior the way I want it.  This means getting a bed with some storage in it and painting it to make it look nice.

 

Hopefully by the time I’m ready to do this, my DW will be over the shock of the in frame cost and will be willing to let me spend some money on the truck again .

She didn’t know anything about the possibility of an in frame in our future and wasn’t real happy when I dropped that one on her.  I had planned on having this discussion with her as part of the greater conversation of spending money on a new truck or putting money into the existing truck for worry free retirement travel.  It all popped up a little sooner than I had hoped.  The only benefit of it happening now is I can still work overtime to pay for it and not have it dip into my retirement money .

 

[Steve from SoCal]

Good read Chad,

 

I know with CAT platinum you can get 4 year warranty does Cummins offer something comparable?

 

I have an older truck as well and, the idea of going through it top to bottom Vs buying a newer model is a hot topic on trucker forums.     Personally I chose a pre-emission truck knowing full well I would be facing some major work at some point.    Short of buying a glider with an older driveline  rebuilding makes the most sense to me.     Yea that is a hard pill to swallow but, it's done deal now.       The new trucks have some real advantages I don't deny that, for the RV user however they also are more costly in up keep and, seem to have not yet solved some significant issues.       The market for pre-emission trucks shows that, then there is the pre-eld trucks.      The relative simplicity of pre-emission engines and, durability of our trucks points to them soldering on for millions of miles and decades of service if one chooses to.     

 

T2's are already becoming "classics" on the road.      I have some ideas for a body on your truck, more integrated like the body on my 387.           

Steve

[mr. cob]

Howdy Chad 

Sorry to hear of your troubles glad to hear it all worked out in the end 

Dave

[Buscrusher]

Good read, Chad. Having seen your truck in person, I agree with your making it a keeper. Once you're done with the rest of the detailing, you'll be good to go until you're too creaky to get up into the cab...

[Chad Heiser]

1 hour ago, Buscrusher said:

Good read, Chad. Having seen your truck in person, I agree with your making it a keeper. Once you're done with the rest of the detailing, you'll be good to go until you're too creaky to get up into the cab...

Yeah, this truck should now definitely outlast me with the relatively low mileage I will put on it over my time of ownership.

[Buscrusher]

3 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

Yeah, this truck should now definitely outlast me with the relatively low mileage I will put on it over my time of ownership.

Only bummer is, I was secretly hoping I would have a shot at this truck when you went shopping for a new one! <sigh> hahahaha! The T2000 is one of my absolute favorite looks. 

[Chad Heiser]

12 minutes ago, Buscrusher said:

Only bummer is, I was secretly hoping I would have a shot at this truck when you went shopping for a new one! <sigh> hahahaha! The T2000 is one of my absolute favorite looks. 

I love the looks of the T2000 also.  You aren’t the first person to tell me they’d be interested if I ever decided to sell it.  Never say never, but I’d say highly unlikely at this point.

[Chad Heiser]

10 hours ago, Steve from SoCal said:

Good read Chad,

 

I know with CAT platinum you can get 4 year warranty does Cummins offer something comparable?

 

I have an older truck as well and, the idea of going through it top to bottom Vs buying a newer model is a hot topic on trucker forums.     Personally I chose a pre-emission truck knowing full well I would be facing some major work at some point.    Short of buying a glider with an older driveline  rebuilding makes the most sense to me.     Yea that is a hard pill to swallow but, it's done deal now.       The new trucks have some real advantages I don't deny that, for the RV user however they also are more costly in up keep and, seem to have not yet solved some significant issues.       The market for pre-emission trucks shows that, then there is the pre-eld trucks.      The relative simplicity of pre-emission engines and, durability of our trucks points to them soldering on for millions of miles and decades of service if one chooses to.     

 

T2's are already becoming "classics" on the road.      I have some ideas for a body on your truck, more integrated like the body on my 387.           

Steve

The work comes with a 1 year 100000 mile warranty as part of the service.  I didn’t ask if I could buy any more than that because I was happy with that.

I also specifically chose a pre emissions truck for the tried and true reliability.  If I ever went new, it would be a glider with a pre emissions drive train.  I still have dreams of an Agosy glider, but they will probably stay dreams now.  

I’m a few years out from redoing the bed, but I’d be interested in hearing your ideas.

[COFLTravler]

Chad - great story with a happy ending....well a little lighter in the wallet but still sounds like it all worked out.  For most of us older - excuse me mature folks we would have had to take it out of our retirement funds because that is all we have ….no more work pay.  Now you just need to save for all the rest of the upgrades.

 

Mark

[Pete Kildow]

Sounds like your set for a long time now for sure. Talked with my Mechanic this week. Going to get my T600 in his shop. Do it this winter when he should be slower. And let him pull the oil pan. Check main and rod bearings. Then if everything looks good, Put new bearing back in. And run it.

If there in sad shape. Will just have a in-frame done. That way the next 10 years will be good on the engine. And like you went with a older truck. To not have to deal with EGR and other stuff. Plus got one o the older Detroit Series 60's. That burn less fuel, and pull well.

[adept99]

I read your saga above, and the P.S. in another thread, and thought to myself, "Man, I know how that feels". Don't know if you remember me from Sonoma Co. Fairgrounds, but kept getting tangled up with the folks that live out there and never did get to call you. Or go to dinner. Sorry for the rude behavior.

We lost a transmission out of our 2001 Volvo VNL 770 autoshift. Same kind of deal. Did not see any evidence of leaks, just a few drips now and then out of the rear main. Several weeks prior to the actual failure, I noticed that when I slowed for a corner (not a curve) that when I reapplied the throttle the transmission would take an extra second or two to re-engage. On two occasions, it failed the re-engage at all. The first time, I towed it about 1/4 of a mile over to a gravel lot about 2 miles from home. Next morning, it would engage but I was scared to try to drive it 5 miles to the diesel shop. Did anyway, and sure enough, it failed the second time. Coach net came and towed it. A day and a half later. 

Anyway...

First estimate - $8K. That triggered a long discussion with the DW about whether to keep the rig or just sell it & move on. Obviously, the value is gonna tank if we sell it with a bad transmission. On the other hand, that's a pretty healthy hit on the old retirement fund.

Lots of other stuff to repair/replace "because we're there", so new clutch et al, tail shaft bearing, oil cooler, etc. Seemed like the hits just kept on coming. Then came the issue with the hydraulic clutch linkage and the EZ clutch. They didn't want to play together. Fixed. Then new transmission would not stay in reverse. Several days to find a smashed wire to the reverse sensor.

Final Bill: $10,142

Had our failure been as severe as yours, we probably would have given up. Fortunately, when we bought the truck, I had a DYNO test run and every thing checked good, so we're fairly comfortable with the equipment.

I guess my point here is that if you have an older truck like ours or like yours, you avoid things like Emissions controls and a lot of other extra costs on the front end. Even if you do have a failure, it's not likely to offset the differential between new & used. 

Just thought you might want to know that other folks have made more or less the same decision as you've made and intend to keep on trucking on down the road

(BTW: Think we might could slip into the WCR some year?)

Paul

 

 

[Chad Heiser]

44 minutes ago, adept99 said:

I read your saga above, and the P.S. in another thread, and thought to myself, "Man, I know how that feels". Don't know if you remember me from Sonoma Co. Fairgrounds, but kept getting tangled up with the folks that live out there and never did get to call you. Or go to dinner. Sorry for the rude behavior.

We lost a transmission out of our 2001 Volvo VNL 770 autoshift. Same kind of deal. Did not see any evidence of leaks, just a few drips now and then out of the rear main. Several weeks prior to the actual failure, I noticed that when I slowed for a corner (not a curve) that when I reapplied the throttle the transmission would take an extra second or two to re-engage. On two occasions, it failed the re-engage at all. The first time, I towed it about 1/4 of a mile over to a gravel lot about 2 miles from home. Next morning, it would engage but I was scared to try to drive it 5 miles to the diesel shop. Did anyway, and sure enough, it failed the second time. Coach net came and towed it. A day and a half later. 

Anyway...

First estimate - $8K. That triggered a long discussion with the DW about whether to keep the rig or just sell it & move on. Obviously, the value is gonna tank if we sell it with a bad transmission. On the other hand, that's a pretty healthy hit on the old retirement fund.

Lots of other stuff to repair/replace "because we're there", so new clutch et al, tail shaft bearing, oil cooler, etc. Seemed like the hits just kept on coming. Then came the issue with the hydraulic clutch linkage and the EZ clutch. They didn't want to play together. Fixed. Then new transmission would not stay in reverse. Several days to find a smashed wire to the reverse sensor.

Final Bill: $10,142

Had our failure been as severe as yours, we probably would have given up. Fortunately, when we bought the truck, I had a DYNO test run and every thing checked good, so we're fairly comfortable with the equipment.

I guess my point here is that if you have an older truck like ours or like yours, you avoid things like Emissions controls and a lot of other extra costs on the front end. Even if you do have a failure, it's not likely to offset the differential between new & used. 

Just thought you might want to know that other folks have made more or less the same decision as you've made and intend to keep on trucking on down the road

(BTW: Think we might could slip into the WCR some year?)

Paul

 

 

We would be happy to have you at the WCR.  Hopefully you can make it.

I debated whether I was going to post anything about my in frame on the forum or not.  This is why the topic is a little behind when everything actually happened.  It’s not that I wasn’t interested in sharing my experience.  I have no problems sharing anything related to my HDT or RV as many of you who have met me in person or at a rally know.  I will even share actual costs if anyone is interested or going through something similar (although that I will do individually rather than on the open forum).  

My main concern with sharing this was that I did not want to scare anyone off of the HDT lifestyle with a big, scary story like this.  That is not my intent here.  After I thought about it for a while though, I decided this is a potential part of the lifestyle if you are running an older truck.  Ultimately, I didn’t want to hide this fact.

I was realistic when I bought my truck.  It was 12 years old when I got it and it had 800+ thousand miles on it.  I knew if I kept it into retirement or for any significant amount of time that I would eventually have to do an in frame on the motor.  There really just isn’t any way around that as you start pushing near that 1000000 mile mark.(In hindsight, I probably should have shared this little tid bit with my DW a little sooner so she wasn’t so, shall we say, “shocked” when it happened 😧.)  I was well aware of the B50 life expectancy of my motor and of the fact that I had no repair/maintenance history on it to gauge the actual health of it.  It was in good shape overall when I got it, but you never know what is around the corner on an older, high mileage vehicle.  My Uncle is on the second in frame on his OTR truck.  Both of his came around the same mileage I am currently at.  I know there are others on the forum who have also been through this too.

I bought my truck for a pretty good price and always factored in (in my mind) that the “real” purchase price was higher than I paid because I was going to sink additional money into it over time.  It worked for my financial situation at the time.  I was able to pay cash for the truck up front and then make fixes/upgrades/repairs over time as I built up more cash and as things came up. The truck is now basically new on the inside (both interior and driveline). I also know that it will now be my forever truck (unless that lottery ticket sitting in my wallet pays off 😉).  With that in mind, the saving now begins for the new bed and paint to make it as good on the outside as I know it is on the inside.

My overall cost of ownership is creeping up, but it is still not to the level of a new truck with a new custom bed (although it is getting closer every time I make a major upgrade 😎).  I would have loved to start off with a brand new truck built to my specifications with a custom bed like what RVHLIFESTYLES can offer, but there was no way I could have afforded that when I started (or even now).  The way I have done it, I was able to get into the lifestyle and prove to myself it was the right lifestyle for me and still be able to afford it.  I have had six great years so far with my HDT and I am looking forward to many, many more.  I have had a blast interacting on this and other HDT related forums, meeting many of you in person and hosting the WCR.  None of that would have happened if I hadn’t jumped in with the purchase of my truck six years ago.  This tale is just one of many that I have as a result of that.

[Alie&Jim's Carrilite]

3 hours ago, adept99 said:

(BTW: Think we might could slip into the WCR some year?)

Paul

 

 

1

We would be happy to have you at the WCR

 

Yea you might as well invite EVERYbody.... You let Brad and Jacolyn  in after all!

[beyerjf]

On 9/6/2018 at 2:09 AM, Chad Heiser said:

Pulled the pistons and liners and found #2 liner had a hole all the way through it. 

This was probably the major source of the loss of coolant, and was mentioned earlier, it got burned in the combustion chamber, not going into the oil pan and combining with the oil, which has also been mentioned would have left the oil looking like mayonnaise. If the hole is at the top of the liner where compression is forced into it one of the symptoms would be bubbles or even hoses blown off the cooling system. If the hole is at the lower part of the liner it just leaks into the cylinder. 

The hole was caused by cavitation, which is prevented by testing the coolant at least annually to make sure it has the correct SCA concentration, not too much, not too little, just right. It is over looked by lots of fleets and owners, and although easy to test for, some strips from a Cummins dealer does it, more often than not they don't have them.

 

All things considered, you done good. You caught the situation before any real serious damage was done. And now you have an excellent motor out front. 

[tyates007]

Glad it all worked out Chad. Next year this will all just be a memory 😉

[lockmup68]

I run Evans lifetime coolant on my powerstrokes, but had not considered it for the corn binder yet. Might need to rethink that. Never have any SCA problems on the strokes.