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11 hours ago, Kirk W said:

That all started before the ACA was passed, causing health care to change so dramatically. In addition to the things Barbra mentions, there are only a few states that will allow you to use a mail forwarding service as your legal address without any time required to be physically in that state. Oregon has that provision with their traveler status but you have to actually live in the state for at least 6 months. Any state requiring a physical residence is not practical for a fulltimer. 

This is why it is sooooo important to really think about using a mail forwarding service when starting your full time adventure. I know when new folks visit the site the automatic suggestion is to get a mail forwarding service, but there are tons of advantages not doing this.  If you have a relative or close family friend in the state you wish to claim residency in sometimes it is better for a variety of reasons just to use their address.  

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You can't compare share programs with ACA health insurance. Apples and oranges! My point is that you get what you pay for. There is no free ride or getting more then you paid for. It is my understanding that there are many non-profit health insurance companies, BCBS in many places is non-profit, not CA because the state made then go to a profit company because of the way they ran the company in CA.

I feel sorry for those who had to, for one reason or another, get one of those high deductible plans! You had better have a good amount of savings!

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1 hour ago, FL-JOE said:

This is why it is sooooo important to really think about using a mail forwarding service when starting your full time adventure. I know when new folks visit the site the automatic suggestion is to get a mail forwarding service, but there are tons of advantages not doing this.  If you have a relative or close family friend in the state you wish to claim residency in sometimes it is better for a variety of reasons just to use their address.  

Our daughter lives north of Fort Worth, but we use Livingston as our official address.  Don’t want to burden her with our mail, don’t want vehicles registered in metro area.

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8 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Our daughter lives north of Fort Worth, but we use Livingston as our official address.  Don’t want to burden her with our mail, don’t want vehicles registered in metro area.

And that works for you guys.  Many new folks just don't understand or appreciate the fact that when you go full time and have a mail service it can be treated differently by some businesses and institutions, like insurance companies and banks (loans).  It is really surprising how many things can be effected by your home address anymore.

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11 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

If you have a relative or close family friend in the state you wish to claim residency in sometimes it is better for a variety of reasons just to use their address.  

Oy vey

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12 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

If you have a relative or close family friend in the state you wish to claim residency in sometimes it is better for a variety of reasons just to use their address.  

While I'm sure that there are some situations where that is true, I don't see "tons" of them except for situations where one wishes to claim domicile in a state that does not allow the use of mail services as a legal address. That would be the majority of states and I know that there are many people who do things that way in order to keep the domicile they prefer. For me, the situation is much like that of Barb as we have two sons in Dallas county but we have not domiciled in the metroplex since we went fulltime. Many reasons for our choice of  Livingston and now that we have returned to part-time, we continue to live outside of the metro area for those same reasons. For us, the thought of expecting a family member to act as our mail service for 12 years just seemed to be asking too much of them.

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11 hours ago, Kirk W said:

While I'm sure that there are some situations where that is true, I don't see "tons" of them except for situations where one wishes to claim domicile in a state that does not allow the use of mail services as a legal address. That would be the majority of states and I know that there are many people who do things that way in order to keep the domicile they prefer. For me, the situation is much like that of Barb as we have two sons in Dallas county but we have not domiciled in the metroplex since we went fulltime. Many reasons for our choice of  Livingston and now that we have returned to part-time, we continue to live outside of the metro area for those same reasons. For us, the thought of expecting a family member to act as our mail service for 12 years just seemed to be asking too much of them.

Times have changed slightly since you were full timing I suspect, plus everyone is a little different when it comes to how much mail they may get delivered to them.  

The USPS now has a free option you can sign up for where you can go online and view what pieces of mail will be delivered to your home each and every day.  So the DW checks this each morning and if there is anything that looks important than she simply sends a text message to our friend and either asks her to put it aside for future forwarding or to open it.  If she opens it she will take a screen shot with her phone for us so we can read it and/or print it.  

Since we do everything online and paperless, plus have a health plan that is a medicare advantage PPO (never see bills), it is rare that there is actually any mail that needs to be forwarded or scanned.  Our friend lives alone and enjoys doing this for us.  When we are camped in that area during the winter she knows that any maintenance she needs done around her condo I will gladly do for her.  

We considered using a mail service when we went full time (for the second stint).  However this life long friend wanted to do this for us and it was a huge advantage for us also.  We not only are not paying a monthly bill for mail service, but there is never a stranger opening or scanning our mail.   Since we winter in a CG just a few miles away from our "home" address we pickup our own mail at least 4 months out of the year so she only has to worry about it for 8 months or less.

I think as snail mail becomes more and more obsolete and the USPS steps up a little more there really won't be a ton of need for a mail service.  

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11 minutes ago, FL-JOE said:

The USPS now has a free option you can sign up for where you can go online and view what pieces of mail will be delivered to your home each and every day. 

I have subscribed to that service since it became available. You make me wonder how old you think that I am? 🤣 If I remember you posted your age a while back and we are very close to the same age. We also continue to travel for extended periods, having spent 5 months on the road this year. There isn't anything in what you state you have that isn't available form one or more of the mail services and the use of one does not impose on friends or family. Do you pay for this service? I see nothing wrong with your doing what you find you like, only doubt your predictions about numbers of future users. 

I would point out that most of the businesses in RV mail services are growing in numbers with the younger, still working, families the most rapid growth area. 

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13 hours ago, Kirk W said:

While I'm sure that there are some situations where that is true, I don't see "tons" of them except for situations where one wishes to claim domicile in a state that does not allow the use of mail services as a legal address. That would be the majority of states and I know that there are many people who do things that way in order to keep the domicile they prefer. For me, the situation is much like that of Barb as we have two sons in Dallas county but we have not domiciled in the metroplex since we went fulltime. Many reasons for our choice of  Livingston and now that we have returned to part-time, we continue to live outside of the metro area for those same reasons. For us, the thought of expecting a family member to act as our mail service for 12 years just seemed to be asking too much of them.

Sorry, I just assumed from the "tone" of your posting that you were folks that probably received a couple handfuls of mail every day, and if that was the case then it probably would be asking a lot to have someone stay on top of it.  

Different way of doing things I guess.  Our friend wanted to do this for us and we really like using her address.  During the winter if she needs a frig filter replaced or some blinds hung she knows I will do it for her.  Since she is in her 60's and lives alone she likes having our name on her mailbox also.  

Her address, and now our legal address, is in the exact same zip code as our sticknbrick we sold.  We vote in the same area and we didn't have to get different doctors.  Anyone looking at our records/accounts assumes we sold our home and rented a nearby condo.

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Joe,

Our SIL was finishing his PhD when we started fulltiming so we knew that they would move frequently over the next few years.   You seem to make a lot of assumptions about Fulltimers that aren’t applicable to most of us. 

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6 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

Her address, and now our legal address, is in the exact same zip code as our sticknbrick we sold.  We vote in the same area and we didn't have to get different doctors.  Anyone looking at our records/accounts assumes we sold our home and rented a nearby condo.

1

If you check the definition of the term domicile in any legal dictionary you will find that it always includes "the place where you intend to return" in some form and it would seem that applies to you. If you want to keep everything where you lived before you went on the road, and you want to be able to vote there, you don't want to change doctors, banks, or other business contacts, then the only legal answer is to find a way to keep your present domicile. If that state is one of the majority that does not accept the use of a mail service, then there are few alternatives and you have found one of them. 

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2 hours ago, Kirk W said:

If you check the definition of the term domicile in any legal dictionary you will find that it always includes "the place where you intend to return" in some form

My head is beginning to hurt.

From one legal dictionary:

"Domicile is the place where a person has his/her permanent principal home to which he/she returns or intends to return."

Further down, in the same definition:

"person cannot be without a domicile and cannot have more than one domicile at any one time;"

 

So, a domicile is where one has a "permanent principal home".  And, one cannot be "without a domicile".  Therefore, one cannot be without a permanent principle home! 

 

If I sell my "permanent principal home",  according to this definition, I become a non-entity!  Obviously, I don't intend to return to it (I just sold it!).  Until I establish a new "permanent principle home", what is my legal status and where is my domicile?

 

We plan to sell our home and become full-timers for an indefinite period of time.  We also do not have any "intent" to return anywhere.  We have no idea where we will end up, or when - therefore, no "intent".  We just want to see the country, for as long as we are physically able to travel, all the while compiling a list of places that might be suitable for us to settle down in.

 

From the legal definition, I see the very real possibility that we (and others like us) could be in a dubious legal position.

 

Like I said, my head hurts...

Edited by OregonJim

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On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 6:19 AM, FL-JOE said:

This is why it is sooooo important to really think about using a mail forwarding service when starting your full time adventure. I know when new folks visit the site the automatic suggestion is to get a mail forwarding service, but there are tons of advantages not doing this.  If you have a relative or close family friend in the state you wish to claim residency in sometimes it is better for a variety of reasons just to use their address.  

I agree.  As a fulltimer under 65 who still works, I have a physical address at the RV site (asked permission to use physical address and do not send mail here) , where I am working and/or a mailing address of family or a PO Box that I use. I have never used a mail forwarding service.   General Delivery is also accepted.  Homeless persons who reside on the street are able to get ACA insurance.

Almost everything I do is paperless and I received 4 pieces of paper mail this summer when in Alaska for 5 months, most of which was also done online but for some reason they wanted to send paper.

The ACA does recognize that RVers  could have a summer and a winter location where they spend most of their time and you can pick either one as your residence for ACA purposes.  You do need some documentation.

 

Edited by trostberg

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We are going to keep coming back to this because the law really does not contemplate those of us who are on the move full time. We just have to be aware of the factors and do the best we can do. If you find a state that offers the insurance you want you will need to make efforts to put down some roots there. If one has their bank accounts there, stays there from time to time, has their doctors there, registers their car there and finds a way to have a mailing address there, then that might have to do. The issue is complicated not just by the residency vs domicile definitions but also because you have competing definitions under the federal law, the ACA, and the state law. I think we just have to keep the information going back and forth and if someone is considering a state----ask questions as someone here may already be residents there. I lived most my life in Michigan and they offer PPO insurance so that is easy for me but if that changes I will go through the very same process. I think it may also be a worthwhile subject for us to consider how one can minimize the risk of using a HMO plan purchased under the exchange and have a dialogue if anyone has real-world experiences with this situation. PPO is expensive. 

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11 hours ago, OregonJim said:

From the legal definition, I see the very real possibility that we (and others like us) could be in a dubious legal position.

You could if you try to use more than one location. It has long been held that your domicile does not change unless you change it. Owning property is only one the many things that are considered by the courts in determining your domicile and the sale of it doesn't change anything other than your address. Domicile is a legal term and not your address but a combination of activities like registering vehicles, holding a driver's license, buying insurance, visiting doctors or dentists, joining community organizations, subscribing to a newspaper, transacting business, and pretty much any other activity of daily life. It can become complicated for those of us who live in an RV and travel a great deal but it is seldom challenged except when you change from a taxing authority that wants to keep your money coming in. Other challenges do happen occasionally from things like a will or other legal problem but they are actually pretty rare. 

Edited by Kirk W

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18 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

Joe,

Our SIL was finishing his PhD when we started fulltiming so we knew that they would move frequently over the next few years.   You seem to make a lot of assumptions about Fulltimers that aren’t applicable to most of us. 

Sorry you are assuming that.  I was just relating our situation and trying to point out to someone who "used" to be full time (Kirk) that there are different ways maybe to handle these things for some folks.  Your situation is obviously different than ours, we have five grown married children with families, none of which were still pursuing their education when we began full timing.  

Obviously no one would change their legal address over to any friend's or relative's address who they knew would be moving frequently.  That would be extra stupid IMHO.

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12 hours ago, trostberg said:

I agree.  As a fulltimer under 65 who still works, I have a physical address at the RV site (asked permission to use physical address and do not send mail here) , where I am working and/or a mailing address of family or a PO Box that I use. I have never used a mail forwarding service.   General Delivery is also accepted.  Homeless persons who reside on the street are able to get ACA insurance.

Almost everything I do is paperless and I received 4 pieces of paper mail this summer when in Alaska for 5 months, most of which was also done online but for some reason they wanted to send paper.

The ACA does recognize that RVers  could have a summer and a winter location where they spend most of their time and you can pick either one as your residence for ACA purposes.  You do need some documentation.

 

You are correct trostberg, and being full time without a mail service is working for you, just like it works for us (Medicare and all).  

About 10 years ago when the DW and I first began investigating the possibility of going full time in an RV one of the first things we looked at was mail service options.  We studied the pros and cons for months.  We knew it was an important decision because we certainly did not want to be changing our address every few years nor did we want to create an expense that we really did not need.  As we looked at the present and future ramifications of where the address should be and how it should be handled we were shocked at how many things could be effected by it.

For us it has always worked out better not using a mail service.   I always bring up that possibility when a new person posts on one of these forums with questions about it.  I usually get overruled by "long timers" on the forum who used to be full timers or are still are and have always utilized a mail service.  

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Joe,

One of the reasons that mail forwarding services can be so helpful is that they are often located in smaller communities where local officials come to understand that a segment of their population will never actually be in town, but will instead keep people in that town working.  That is important for things like voting and jury duty, buying a new vehicle out-of-state and getting it registered, etc.    

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4 hours ago, Kirk W said:

You could if you try to use more than one location. It has long been held that your domicile does not change unless you change it. Owning property is only one the many things that are considered by the courts in determining your domicile and the sale of it doesn't change anything other than your address. Domicile is a legal term and not your address but a combination of activities like registering vehicles, holding a driver's license, buying insurance, visiting doctors or dentists, joining community organizations, subscribing to a newspaper, transacting business, and pretty much any other activity of daily life. It can become complicated for those of us who live in an RV and travel a great deal but it is seldom challenged except when you change from a taxing authority that wants to keep your money coming in. Other challenges do happen occasionally from things like a will or other legal problem but they are actually pretty rare. 

Thanks Kirk.  I'm not worried about challenges due to taxes - more worried about other things like probate, will interpretation, jurisdiction of authority, etc.

Have looked at 15 different legal dictionaries, and found 15 different definitions of the term "domicile" - many were substantially different.  Have also looked at 5 cases where domicile was a factor and each one expanded the definition of "domicile" in apparently arbitrary ways in the case notes.  It seems that lawyers and judges don't know what it means, either - at least when the subject does not fit the mold of "someone with a permanent home".

I'm pretty clear on what the general consensus of full-timers think "domicile" means.  What concerns me is that there is no clear legal definition - and that's the only thing that counts if you go to court.  Seems to be a case of "you pays your money, and you takes your chances".

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On 11/8/2018 at 7:26 AM, FL-JOE said:

The USPS now has a free option you can sign up for where you can go online and view what pieces of mail will be elivered to your home each and every day.  So the DW checks this each morning and if there is anything that looks mportant than she simply sends a text message to our friend and either asks her to put it aside for future orwarding or to open it.  If she opens it she will take a screen shot with her phone for us so we can read it and/or rint it. 

Do you also see what mail your friend is receiving at her house?  I have the informed delivery service for a post office  and didn't specify recipient names--it just shows everything that's coming.  That might be a concern to someone.

And, well, it shows everything that's coming, in theory only.  I get this a lot: "There is a mailpiece for which we do not currently have an image that is included in Today's mail."  I appreciate the service, but I'd never rely on it for knowing exactly what's in my mail.

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6 hours ago, OregonJim said:

Have looked at 15 different legal dictionaries, and found 15 different definitions of the term "domicile" - many were substantially different.  Have also looked at 5 cases where domicile was a factor and each one expanded the definition of "domicile" in apparently arbitrary ways in the case notes.  It seems that lawyers and judges don't know what it means, either - at least when the subject does not fit the mold of "someone with a permanent home".

You have discovered the real world of domicile. It is a term of our courts and each case is different. 

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OregonJim,

If you are worried about domicile in connection with wills or probate, there are legal ways to make sure that isn't a problem.   Not sure what "jurisdiction of authority" you are worried about - could you please explain that one.   

A lot of people seem to be chasing the "I need an exact definition that is good in all jurisdictions" and never explain why.  More often than not it appears to be tilting at a windmill.  

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1 minute ago, Barbaraok said:

A lot of people seem to be chasing the "I need an exact definition that is good in all jurisdictions" and never explain why.  More often than not it appears to be tilting at a windmill.  

 

Yep.

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4 hours ago, Blues said:

Do you also see what mail your friend is receiving at her house?  I have the informed delivery service for a post office  and didn't specify recipient names--it just shows everything that's coming.  That might be a concern to someone.

And, well, it shows everything that's coming, in theory only.  I get this a lot: "There is a mailpiece for which we do not currently have an image that is included in Today's mail."  I appreciate the service, but I'd never rely on it for knowing exactly what's in my mail.

Any account we have is paperless and/or auto pay.  Any piece of mail that is "unknown" we have her open it.  Just today we received our new transferred registration from Florida for my motorcycle.  We had traded while in Virginia.  She simply opened it for us, took a screen shot, sent it, and I was able to print it.  Since we will be back in that area by December 1st we won't have her forward anything.

We can absolutely see what mail she is getting.  So can the 12 or 15 other people that have handled that envelope before it gets to her mailbox.  We don't pay any attention to it if our names are not on it.  We have known her for over 40 years, she was our neighbor when we were raising all our kids.  There is nothing that would come in our mail that I would want to keep secret or be ashamed of and I'm sure she is the same way.  

This may not work for everyone.  There may be folks that would not even want children or family members to see all their mail.  We aren't that way.  This works for us but it may not work for many others.

 

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