Cuba??

[mikeeusa]

EXTREMELY disappointed that Escapees is going to sponsor a HOP to include a visit to one of the worlds best known human rights abusers, Cuba.  If this is going to be the continued direction that this organization is willing to endorse then maybe I'm in the wrong Club.

[sandsys]

There are all kinds of reasons to do all kinds of things. I was born on the US Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, when my Dad was stationed there. I'd like to go see it. Nothing political about having an interest in seeing your birthplace. Have you seen yours?

Linda Sand

[FL-JOE]

I can see your point Mike.  We have some friends that are in Cuba right now on a cruise out of our home state of Florida.  In a small way by taking a cruise to Cuba you are contributing to that economy, and helping their country, which is not the worse human rights abusers but right up there with the worse.

I have often thought about a trip to Viet Nam.  Another communist country that doesn't give a crap about human rights.  I would like to re-visit a couple places.  Mixed emotions though, probably should just stay away.

[SWharton]

This is a commercial operation..............not private. Not everything that is  done may sit well with me but others are fine with it.

[CapeMayAl]

For me, I think it is abhorrent that Escapees would participate in any function with a Communist country - regardless of the degree.  Too many of us have lived through the years of drills, education, military, etc that would not feel insulted, to say the least.

IMHO, Escapees has made an extremely poor decision to sponsor a HOP to a Communist country.  Its Escapees decision to accept or not accept offensive advertising, etc.

If the HOP is only to our military installations and associated areas, then it is another situation entirely.

 

[trailertraveler]

25 minutes ago, CapeMayAl said:

...For me, I think it is abhorrent that Escapees would participate in any function with a Communist country - regardless of the degree...If the HOP is only to our military installations and associated areas, then it is another situation entirely...

According to the HOP announcement, this is their second one to Cuba. The announcement makes no mention of visiting U.S. military installations.

Quote

Enjoy activities in Cuba like:

·         An authentic, home-cooked Cuban lunch, at one of Cuba’s many family-owned, in-home restaurants, known as Paladares. Meet the family that is cooking your meal, and learn about the challenges and joys of being self-employed in Cuba.

·         Visit Hemingway’s former home in Havana and take an excursion to the nearby fishing village of Cojimar, his favorite retreat, as well as the setting for The Old Man and the Sea.

·         Visit an Artisans’ Market, the Almacenes de San José - Havana’s largest craft market, and be amazed at the treasures, produced by the local craftsmen. 

Not sure what cruises have to do with RVing but they must be profitable as they have offered several.

[CapeMayAl]

Makes no difference to me.  I feel, as a member, that this type of sponsorship should not be promoted.

I guess members have no say in these kind of things.  

Maybe time to leave?

[trailertraveler]

17 minutes ago, CapeMayAl said:

Makes no difference to me.  I feel, as a member, that this type of sponsorship should not be promoted.

I guess members have no say in these kind of things.  

Maybe time to leave?

Despite the name, Escapees is not what I consider a true "club" run by those elected by the club's members. It is a privately owned for profit business. The only real vote members have is with their dollars.

[CapeMayAl]

3 minutes ago, trailertraveler said:

Despite the name, Escapees is not what I consider a true "club" run by those elected by the club's members. It is a privately owned for profit business. The only real vote members have is with their dollars.

Not so sure I agree with that.  I pay a membership fee each year.

Regardless, those who are aware of this HOP, and are not members, reflects on all of us no matter how we feel - pro or con.

[jpcoll01]

I want people to only have options to do things that I agree with, so I'm with you!!! 

/sarcasm

I'll never understand some people's desire to impose their will or beliefs on others...sounds a lot like the communism you speak of.

[trailertraveler]

3 minutes ago, CapeMayAl said:

...Not so sure I agree with that.  I pay a membership fee each year...

That is what I was getting at. If you don't like what Escapees does, don't join next year and if so inclined tell them why.

[CapeMayAl]

Just now, trailertraveler said:

That is what I was getting at. If you don't like what Escapees does, don't join next year and if so inclined tell them why.

True.  But why should I cancel or not renew.  I've  been a member for  good 15 years.

[trailertraveler]

41 minutes ago, CapeMayAl said:

True.  But why should I cancel or not renew.  I've  been a member for  good 15 years.

Member or customer? As I stated before, in a true "club" the management is elected giving members a say through those they elect as well as through whether they choose to pay their dues. Since it has been said many times on this forum that the Escapees Management rarely reads forum posts unless there are complaints, it is unlikely that they will see this discussion unless it is reported, they are notified by one of the volunteer forum Admins or someone contacts them by email, phone or letter.

[CapeMayAl]

20 minutes ago, trailertraveler said:

Member or customer? As I stated before, in a true "club" the management is elected giving members a say through those they elect as well as through whether they choose to pay their dues. Since it has been said many times on this forum that the Escapees Management rarely reads forum posts unless there are complaints, it is unlikely that they will see this discussion unless it is reported, they are notified by one of the volunteer forum Admins or someone contacts them by email, phone or letter.

I did send an email.

The Escapees website is titled   Escapees RV Club

[Pat & Pete]

38 minutes ago, CapeMayAl said:

I did send an email.

The Escapees website is titled   Escapees RV Club

Just because it looks like a duck , doesn't mean it is a duck .

[CapeMayAl]

8 minutes ago, Pat & Pete said:

Just because it looks like a duck , doesn't mean it is a duck .

Very true.

[bigjim]

Good Sam club is not a true club.  Many others offer those type incentives that are not a true club. I respect everyones right to their opinion and I have a right to mine. 

[CapeMayAl]

This is the reply I received from Escapees HOP Director -  You be the judge.

"Thank you for your email. I understand your choice not to visit Cuba, and I honor your decision.

 

Escapees has offered cruises to 3rd world countries such as Vietnam, Guatemala, Columbia, Mexico, Japan, Russia, Chile, Argentina, since 2007, and an Escapees chapter takes a group of Escapees members in a caravan into Mexico and has been doing so for many years. So, Escapees has a long tradition of being unrestricted and welcoming people who maintain many different beliefs. The nature of this club is to promote travel and cultural exploration. At times, our travels as a club and individuals may take us to areas that some would never go, for a host of strongly held beliefs.

 

Since the U.S. has normalized their relations with Cuba, the HOP department has had several requests from Escapees members to organize a trip to Cuba. Some people are Escapees members from Canada, the U.S., and one lady (an Escapees member) was born in Cuba, but her family migrated to the U.S. when she was a baby. She is a U.S. citizen now, but wants to go back to Cuba with her grown children and show them her ("roots") home country.

 

Rather than mandating where our members should or should not go, we let our members decide where they would like to travel. And, we try to remain responsive to their needs. While some may take issue with our policy of neutrality, it is the only way to welcome people who hold different worldviews.

 

Thank you again for your email.

 

Have a good day.

Lisa

 

Lisa Koca

HOP Director

www.escapees.com/hops

www.facebook.com/escapeeshops"

[ss owens]

Regardless if I personally agree with a vacation to Cuba or not, it seems it was popular enough with a portion of the Escapees membership for it to be offered more than once since I read here this is the second time this HOP has been offered. 

As has been stated earlier, anyone who strongly disagrees with club activities, or club promoted activities, has the freedom to remain members or end membership. Expressing one's dismay in writing may be effective, but unless it becomes apparent that opinion is held by the majority of members, it is likely to make little difference.

[CapeMayAl]

Who knows if its an opinion by the majority of member?  Have you ever been asked about how you feel about club activities.  I know I haven't.

 

[Kirk W]

15 minutes ago, ss owens said:

As has been stated earlier, anyone who strongly disagrees with club activities, or club promoted activities, has the freedom to remain members or end membership. Expressing one's dismay in writing may be effective, but unless it becomes apparent that opinion is held by the majority of members, it is likely to make little difference.

Escapees do have an advisory committee that is made up of nonowner members and they are listened to and usually, their advice is taken. I do not know if they ever address the HOP programs but they have made many suggestions that were instituted over the years that I have been a member. As a life member and a Viet Nam era veteran, this HOP is one that we have considered joining. The US has begun to have connections to the country as we do with many communist countries and others that have poor human rights records. I knew a couple of WWII veterans who felt that no patriotic American would ever visit Japan or Germany! 

[RV_]

2 hours ago, CapeMayAl said:

This is the reply I received from Escapees HOP Director -  You be the judge.

"Escapees has offered cruises to 3rd world countries such as Vietnam, Guatemala, Columbia, Mexico, Japan, Russia, Chile, Argentina, since 2007, and an Escapees chapter takes a group of Escapees members in a caravan into Mexico and has been doing so for many years.

I just hate misspells of country names. There was a Space Shuttle Columbia, and Columbia Pictures, but the only Country with a similar name is Colombia that I know of. <wink>

We went to Czechoslovakia before the dissolution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics which meant we visited one too! OMG! We've also been to England, France, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, Switzerland, Mexico, Canada, Italy, and the European countries many times when we lived in Germany for seven years. We skied in Austria, Switzerland, France, Italy, and Germany every year we were there, many time two or three trips to Austria and Switzerland in one year, and one to Germany and Italy. I lived in Colombia for two years when my dad was stationed there 1958/1959 and learned Spanish by having to use it for school as I went to Kindergarten and first grade there.

I am sorry guys but in order for all of the objectors to buying goods and services from Communist countries you had better stop typing now and throw every computer, keyboard, screen and mouse or other input and output devices like Bluetooth speakers and headsets, TVs, radios, stereos, soundbars and Printers. Then throw out your cell phones and some of your vehicles components.

You can't have it both ways. See, when we visit we choose who to spend our money with and the cruise company is not usually from the country we are visiting if by ship.

I don't care whether it is a Dell or an Apple, an iPhone or a Motorola Z Play phone from Verizon, like mine. I thought it was a good name to buy,, Motorola is from the US right? Wrong! It turns out to be made by Lenovo, the largest communist Chinese maker of PCs, and phones today, among other things. They made the IBM ThinkPads for a decade or so before they bought the name, since before when it was thought to be made by IBM. Now they are outed and are proud of their brands.

Even the Japanese import many of their products mostly from China.

Oh, y'all do know China is a communist country, right?

C'mon guys, I am a free person in a free country and I will visit Cuba or China, or wherever I choose, and you can not visit them.

This is just a tempest in a teapot, and some of your inexperience is showing too. We might take that cruise despite the fact that I don't drink alcohol or smoke tobacco.

I am about to move to Colorado and may try the 1% non psychotropic (You don't get high) pain killer Cannabidiol edibles, and stop taking 500mg of Naproxin Sodium (Alleve) daily. Here's the Swiss view from the country that invented "wellness." Some think pain relieving medical Cannabis was just an excuse to get high? I like that option too if I choose as a free man and live in a state where that is legal, as we soon will be. This next article Is a must read for those who think they know medical weed is just an excuse to get high. https://quartzy.qz.com/1247145/the-next-chapter-in-swiss-wellness-is-cannabis-based/

There are non addictive pain relieving drugs that are without the horrible addictions and side effects, including death, if an ill person mistakes they had already taken their legally prescribed natural Opium based (Opioid) or synthetic Opioids like Fentanyl.

I use the comparison as both elicit strong responses that when the facts are known become less controversial. Recreational is the one that gets you high and has the pain relieving part too. I haven't tried any since before I enlisted to date. And then I was a teen in the New York City area and loved the Greenwich Village scene. I chose not to use Opioids as well as weed as a teen and quit drinking Beer and smoking tobacco for wellness reasons in my 50s.

"It ain't what people know that gets them in trouble. It's what they think they know, but just ain't so!"

Will Rogers

[RV_]

I agree Kirk, those WWII folks are behind the times on human rights around the world.

The 2008 Freedom in the World report by US-funded Freedom House gives Germany a score of "1" (the best possible) for both political rights and civil liberties.

Japan also has a rating of 1.

That is a scale of 1-7 with 1 being the best human rights rating and 7 the worst.

Source: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2013/germany

 

 

 

[Barbaraok]

8 hours ago, CapeMayAl said:

True.  But why should I cancel or not renew.  I've  been a member for  good 15 years.

You’re the one complaining.  As to a Communist country;  come on we’ve traded with lots of ‘communist’  countries over the years.  And really, they were all just dictatorships, not really true communism.    Time marches on, and the best way to change a country is to engage them in trade.  You’re tilting at windmills here.

[Dutch_12078]

4 hours ago, CapeMayAl said:

Who knows if its an opinion by the majority of member?  Have you ever been asked about how you feel about club activities.  I know I haven't.

 

I've participated in a number of club surveys over the years that covered various aspects of membership, so yes, I'd say I've been asked. As for the Cuba HOP, it's irrelevant whether the majority of the membership actively approves, as long as a sufficient number of interested members are willing to fill the cruise. Off hand, I suspect you'd find the majority of the members are pretty ambivalent about the HOP, with no strong opinions one way or the other.