10ga wire help mystery wires

[jcussen]

 

[Yarome]

7 hours ago, jcussen said:

https://www.microair.net/collections/easystart-soft-starters

Took me about 30 min to install. Box goes inside of air conditioner. Heard that a 13.5 btu air con will run off a eu2000 with no problem. I can run one ac on 15 amp circuit. I do shut off the inverter/charger first.

Exactly! I've heard nothing but good about those... and the company itself. Small... but support is all hands on.

I don't especially need one, but I've been toying with the idea of going with their control board only option (no wire harness, cap or weather box) just to play with it. I run my aircon only but very rarely and only for an hour or two at a time so I, personally, can't justify the cost, but from what I've read and heard.... they work like a charm.   

[jcussen]

1 hour ago, Yarome said:

Exactly! I've heard nothing but good about those... and the company itself. Small... but support is all hands on.

I don't especially need one, but I've been toying with the idea of going with their control board only option (no wire harness, cap or weather box) just to play with it. I run my aircon only but very rarely and only for an hour or two at a time so I, personally, can't justify the cost, but from what I've read and heard.... they work like a charm.   

Yes, self contained unit is expensive. With coupon about $280 shipped. But I  sometimes stay at a friends place where all I have is 15 amps on a 50 ft extension cord. In south Texas in the summertime, got have at least one ac. If I do the other one, I will use the board. 

[tigergriz]

On 5/2/2018 at 6:55 AM, jcussen said:

https://www.microair.net/collections/easystart-soft-starters

Took me about 30 min to install. Box goes inside of air conditioner. Heard that a 13.5 btu air con will run off a eu2000 with no problem. I can run one ac on 15 amp circuit. I do shut off the inverter/charger first.

Thank you guys, jcussen, johnT, yarome, I just bought the soft start cap, and with a quick search got 40 bucks off using coupon code " AIRSTREAM "

and it is on its way

[tigergriz]

progress update, and again, I can't tell you guys, all of you, thank you enough.

I got and installed the easy start, not to bad to do, except I had to be in the hot sun on my RV roof, but it went well, my unit had a very small box that housed the caps so I had to mount it outside of that but still out of the weather and away from the compressor heat, anyway, I went through its programming process and after that it ran my AC on just my pure sine 3000 watt inverter, very cool....pun intended, batteries would probably not last.

The coolest thing is it ran my AC on just 1 Yamaha 2000 watt generator, I got at costco for 499.00, solar working good, took the rig on a trial run up to Hat creek for the weekend, not much sun but ran the inverter all day charging a laptop "wife forgot to pre-charge" and phones, oh forgot to tell you all, I ended up running s/o cord to the main panel from the inverter and hooked up a relay that kills the water heater and the converter, then I ran a 10ga s/o cord to the shore power bay and installed a 30 amp recepticle in that bay, so I simply plug it into that when on the road, then I can just flip on the remote inverter switch to power the coach.

One more question guys, the blk. water tank sensor is stuck on 3/4 full, I read to put ice down the toilet, and drive so I did on this trip, but its a long way to the tank from toilet and no luck, it looked like the ice was stuck in the line, the RV has spray clean jets in the tank so I used them when I emptied and still stuck, and its not a straight shot from toilet to tank, any ideas?

[Yarome]

Appreciate the update! Pretty cool, that, eh? 😉

I have a suspicion that the "Yamaha" genset you picked up was the AI Power genset powered with a Yamaha engine but not to be confused with a Yamaha inverter genset. No harm no foul there, though. If it works, within your budget and usage, you're "charged", keepin the wife cool (a.k.a. "happy") and it's workin for you... don't fix what ain't broke, I say.

Sounds like all your ducks are in a row and money well spent on the MicrAair. Pretty nifty, that. As mentioned... to date I haven't heard of anyone regretting the install.

Black water tank... factory sensors are pretty much the bane of everyones existence and not at all uncommon an issue. The ice thing... that's a hit and miss... with mostly a miss. Factory sensors are... don't want to throw a pun in here, but as it is... are for "crap".

You "can" throw money at it and resolve the problem with a new sensor set but it doesn't take a couple trips or so to learn your tanks. With black it's called the "burp" affect. Basically... when you flush and get a "burp" sound it's getting about that time. You likely have a day or so before it becomes a neccesity to dump your black but you'll most definately hear a change in the "flush" sound that is really a learned and most trustworthy indicator.

That same goes for your gray. When you sink takes on a "gurggle"... it's about that time. Black or gray you will have some warning if you're paying attention. It'll actually become second nature if you spend much time at all in your rig.

As for a straight shot or not... that depends on the rig. Some are straight "ploppers" and some will have an actual trap similar to what you would expect in an stick & bricks home. In either... I'll step out on a limb and say that the majority of folks would advocate, "more water is more better" to resolve any concerns, but really, when you notice a change in tone/sound/habit of your sink or flusher is the best indacation that it's getting time to dump.

It can be hard to "trust" your ear when starting out but from my experience, it is the most reliable and a far cry from spending the bones and installation hassle on a more "dendable" sensor setup.

"You'll know". 

My personal opinions are my own, by right, and worth every penny of the paper they're printed on. 😉

*Note: Your MicroAir experience would be a great addition to the general knowledge base of others considering the same.

[oldjohnt]

4 hours ago, tigergriz said:

progress update, and again, I can't tell you guys, all of you, thank you enough.

 

 oh forgot to tell you all, I ended up running s/o cord to the main panel from the inverter and hooked up a relay that kills the water heater and the converter, then I ran a 10ga s/o cord to the shore power bay and installed a 30 amp recepticle in that bay, so I simply plug it into that when on the road, then I can just flip on the remote inverter switch to power the coach.

One more question guys, the blk. water tank sensor is stuck on 3/4 full, I read to put ice down the toilet, and drive so I did on this trip, but its a long way to the tank from toilet and no luck, it looked like the ice was stuck in the line, the RV has spray clean jets in the tank so I used them when I emptied and still stuck, and its not a straight shot from toilet to tank, any ideas?

Thanks for the feedback. Yep installing an Inverter powered receptacle near the RV Power Cord and using a relay to kill the Converter was indeed a short sweet n simple method (among several others) to accomplish your initial stated goals. I've never had great luck keeping this OEM tank sensors working long term and I pretty much gave up on that short of I installing a better quality system, SORRY NO MORE IDEAS YOU ASKED FOR. There are some You Tube videos out there showing 2 KW gensets powering an AC unit even without a soft start, but as an engineer I think what you did is the best method for several reasons.

John T

[tigergriz]

9 hours ago, Yarome said:

Appreciate the update! Pretty cool, that, eh? 😉

I have a suspicion that the "Yamaha" genset you picked up was the AI Power genset powered with a Yamaha engine but not to be confused with a Yamaha inverter genset. No harm no foul there, though. If it works, within your budget and usage, you're "charged", keepin the wife cool (a.k.a. "happy") and it's workin for you... don't fix what ain't broke, I say.

Sounds like all your ducks are in a row and money well spent on the MicrAair. Pretty nifty, that. As mentioned... to date I haven't heard of anyone regretting the install.

Black water tank... factory sensors are pretty much the bane of everyones existence and not at all uncommon an issue. The ice thing... that's a hit and miss... with mostly a miss. Factory sensors are... don't want to throw a pun in here, but as it is... are for "crap".

You "can" throw money at it and resolve the problem with a new sensor set but it doesn't take a couple trips or so to learn your tanks. With black it's called the "burp" affect. Basically... when you flush and get a "burp" sound it's getting about that time. You likely have a day or so before it becomes a neccesity to dump your black but you'll most definately hear a change in the "flush" sound that is really a learned and most trustworthy indicator.

That same goes for your gray. When you sink takes on a "gurggle"... it's about that time. Black or gray you will have some warning if you're paying attention. It'll actually become second nature if you spend much time at all in your rig.

As for a straight shot or not... that depends on the rig. Some are straight "ploppers" and some will have an actual trap similar to what you would expect in an stick & bricks home. In either... I'll step out on a limb and say that the majority of folks would advocate, "more water is more better" to resolve any concerns, but really, when you notice a change in tone/sound/habit of your sink or flusher is the best indacation that it's getting time to dump.

It can be hard to "trust" your ear when starting out but from my experience, it is the most reliable and a far cry from spending the bones and installation hassle on a more "dendable" sensor setup.

"You'll know". 

My personal opinions are my own, by right, and worth every penny of the paper they're printed on. 😉

*Note: Your MicroAir experience would be a great addition to the general knowledge base of others considering the same.

So i must trust " the force" trust my abilities to hear change in the flush, I must " let go of my fear" and be one with the flush LOL I crack myself up I totally get what you are saying, and you are right, it makes me nervous not knowing but I get it, I will know when it's close, I just don't want crap in my house

I feel we talked so much about the fridge I should update that also, it is a Norcold N821 so I can select how to power it,  l.p. or electric or auto I just set it to l.p. gas, oh and I was prepping for our trip last week, I always run the fridge on a.c. to get it cold and the freezer froze but fridge was worm so I researched and found that if it's the thermistor that is bad simply unplug it and if it gets cold that is the problem sure enough that was it, you just unplug it up near the light and it has a clip that attaches it to the fins in the fridge, got a new one, " just in time" on the Friday about noon on the day of the launch, but it was easy and did not delay the trip.

Again, I can't thank you guys enough .

 

[tigergriz]

On 5/14/2018 at 4:43 AM, oldjohnt said:

Thanks for the feedback. Yep installing an Inverter powered receptacle near the RV Power Cord and using a relay to kill the Converter was indeed a short sweet n simple method (among several others) to accomplish your initial stated goals. I've never had great luck keeping this OEM tank sensors working long term and I pretty much gave up on that short of I installing a better quality system, SORRY NO MORE IDEAS YOU ASKED FOR. There are some You Tube videos out there showing 2 KW gensets powering an AC unit even without a soft start, but as an engineer I think what you did is the best method for several reasons.

John T

4

Thanks John,

Again, I find myself needing you guys  expertise in electrical, 

As you know I have 300 watt solar going to my AGM batteries, and I have a kill switch connecting them with my flooded batteries, I also have an A, B, ALL switch going from both to the inverter, what I would like to do is install a blocking diode from the AGM's supplied with solar to the flooded bats, but I believe it may overcharge the flooded batteries before the solar controller shuts off, so I am hoping you can tell me that all I need to buy is, "insert part number here ____________ "   and install it between the 2 sets of batteries, and that either, that device already has a diode, or also buy "insert part number here___________ also"

what I am hoping is available is a type of stand-alone regulator/ isolator so the second bank gets charged from the first bank + solar but it is also isolated from discharge to the first bank.

I know the proper thing to do is buy more matching AGM's but they are not free

Thank you again for the help

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yarome]

So... to see if I understand this correctly... you are running 2 "seperate" battery banks. I'll throw in what I "think" I know along with some assumptions and you can correct me as needed... just so we're all on the same page.

To be technical, both are flooded wet cells, but one bank being your newly purchased/istalled AGM's and are directly fed from the solar controller. The other set are standard wet cells (starter? Hybrid/deep cycle? True deep cycle?) being fed/charged by your converter/charger (when on 120VAC).

The primary 12v connection from battery bank to your rigs PD panel would then be to/from the standard wet cell bank.

There are two seperate feeds to your inverter. AGM bank to A/B/All switch, standard wet cell bank to A/B/All switch and A/B/All to inverter.

You have interconnected the two battery banks and installed a kill switch. The assumption being so that both banks will receive charge from both solar and the converter/charger and/or to allow manual control of the dual charging process.

If I understand correctly, what you want to do is install an isolator on that interconnection to allow the AGM's and solar to charge the standard wet cell bank but not allow the standard cells (and the converter/charger) to charge the AGM bank? (Realizing that it would be "defeated" is you happen to ever use the "All" position on your inverter switch.)

What isn't clear is what is the "first bank" (assuming you mean the AGM's) and the "second bank" (assuming the standard cell bank).

The type, size and capacity of the "original" standard wet cell bank is also unknown... or... I mighta missed it, but would be helpful information.

I'll refrain from any comment/suggestions until the basic layout is confirmed or corrected, but if that's kind of in the ballpark of what we're talking about, I "can" say you probably won't like my suggestions. 😉

[oldjohnt]

Tiger, I'm not exactly quite sure of your system and desires, sorry, however I will offer a few personal suggestions then maybe we can re group simplify and start over lol

1) When using multiple batteries connected together (for whatever reason for however long) I prefer they ALL be the same type and brand and design and even age IE I would NOT have AGM and Flooded Lead Acid  in parallel for Loading orrrrrrrrrr Charging. If you're already aware of that and intend to prevent it ignore this and forgive me.........I have no problem using one charger or controller on ONE set of batteries and another on a DIFFERENT set such as a solar charge controller (set for AGM) on AGM and a 120 VAC powered smart charger (set for FLA) on FLA, I just don't like the idea of BOTH of those used in parallel nor any ONE charger or controller to charge BOTH ........... NOR do I like the idea of an AGM bank plus a FLA bank BOTH feeding an Inverter (but I think you already intend an A/B switch to prevent that correct???). It can be hard (probably NOT impossible) to balance the load between the two banks, they just have different charging characteristics.

2) AGM and FLA have different charge characteristics and typically a Smart Charger and/or a Smart Solar Charge Controller have DIFFERENT settings for the batteries they are charging. 

3) While sure a Diode can prevent current flow in a particular direction, they do have a Voltage Drop across them. I prefer the use of good quality low contact resistance Mechanical Isolation Relays, although if their contacts are burned or carboned or pitted they can also cause a problem. Batteries in parallel will eventually equalize but with a diodes 0.6 Volt voltage drop (if that's the case in your proposal) when current flows between the two FLA and AGM banks charge balance is gonna be affected.

4) An A/B or Neither or Both selector switch of sufficient amp rating and Poles and Throws  can be used to control and switch loads and/or charging sources, but that needs to be of good quality and involves a lot of cables and terminations  and connections mind you.  

5) When you speak of one bank charging the other bank I sort of view that as BOTH banks discharging to the lowest common denominator and again with two different banks in parallel I prefer they be identical.  

6) HOWEVER if you can use an A/B switch so your solar charge controller charges one bank or the other PLUSSSSSSSSSSSS you swap its control for AGM or FLA operation I see that as okay but I don't like having AGM and FLA in parallel or both feeing an Inverter at the same time.

7) Its okay to use a Solar Charge Controller set for AGM to charge that bank and a 120 VAC Smart Charger/Converter to charge the FLA bank, its just I don't like those two banks in parallel. If the two banks were wired in parallel and a diode between them sure it can prevent one bank from pumping current to the other but allow the opposite and heck eventually voltages would stabilize... 

8) I have NO problem using an A/B switch so one bank or the other feeds the Inverter. If its using say AGM's and your Solar Charge Controller is set for AGM keeping them (NOT the FLA at same time) charged HEY THATS GREAT. I just don't like the two sets wired together even with a diode (did I mention that before lol)............

There's no free lunch and its your dollars and your RV and much of what you propose will still sure "work" but it just causes me heartburn lol  I bet someone somewhere has connected  FLA and AGM together and sure it "worked" and feel free to do so, just because my own personal preference is one way don't mean other ways cant still work. 

 Again I apologize for not understanding all your goals and proposals but hopefully my verbose rantings above plus Yaromes great post will allow you to take a fresh new look and then maybe we can come up with a simple ???? solution for using BOTH FLA and AGM in one RV involving switching etc ????????? 

John T

 

 

[tigergriz]

Thanks for the replies guys,

And Yarome, you are correct, I have 2 group 24, 6 volt AGM's in series 225 amp hours, and 2 group 24 flooded deep cycle 12-volt batteries in parallel, sorry  didn't get the amp hours on them, my feeble brain seems set on looking at the AGM batteries as nothing more than a current source, since it would remain fully charged from the solar, and as such, I feel like there should be a way to regulate the charge from them to the wet cells, if I am wrong, just say....hey Ken/ Tiger you are wrong, and I will move on and have to closely monitor the charge from solar to the wet cell house batteries when dry camping, I also just installed  a Flow-rite Qwik-fill 12v battery watering syastem to make keeping them full easier, and thanks John, I did not know that a diode saps current when in line, is it enough to trash that idea completely? my solar on a good day should produce 20 amps or so.

[Yarome]

So, if as outlined above, I would have some of the same concerns John pointed out.

1. I wouldn't recommend interconnecting your AGM's and FLA's in any way. I mentioned "seperate" banks, but with interconnecting them you are really just running 2-6v AGm's in series... in parallel with your other 2-12v FLA's for a single battery bank. As mentioned, charge/discharge rates are different for the two types (or even the same types of different ages and or capacities).

Rather than explain "why not"... given what you would "like" to do, I would see the following as a viable option to varying degrees.

A. Run the banks completely seperate. The AGM's being the primary bank and receiving charge from solar and the converter/charger.
A.1. Install an A/B switch or battery charge control module in-line of the main battery to PD panel 12v line leading to the FLA's. That gives you the option, while plugging into shore power, to charge the secondary bank (FLA's) via converter/charger but would never receive charge from solar production.

The actual charge rates between the AGM's and FLA's are not that big of a concern. Setting your charge settings to the lowest (FLA's) setting... it's fine to leave it there for your AGM's as well. They won't charge as quickly or quite as well, but they'll still charge "adequately" when you're plugged into shore power for a couple days or more. Not the other way around though without potentially having a bit of excessive offgassing.

In that case... while boondocking... you would switch the 12v in-line A/B to "B" and the inverter A/B to "B". Now your AGM's are cut out of the loop (charging on solar) and you're living on the FLA's with the only recharge option being a genset.

HAVING SAID THAT: It wouldn't be my chosen option. That's building in complexity and multiple resistance points (a.k.a. efficiency losses) into your electrical that adds a lot of "cost" to your system and not fully utilizing the capabilities you've invested into your AGM's... IMHO.

You have 225ah's of AGM, solar, and dual gensets. You might have a little more genset time if you're energy requirements are leaning more into the "medium" range, but it's entirely doable to live on 110ah/daily. Especially if you're only pulling the occassion 3-4 day trip "off cord". With 300watts... on a  good day, in parts of the country, you could realistically push in ~60ah's/day so staying within that 100ah/day "budget" would require minimal genset time for a 3-4dayer. Remembering that you're bank doesn't have to reach 100% on a daily basis (which would require your genset anyway). Just so they don't drop below 50%SOC on any given day and you're able to take them up to 100% every 5-7 days or so.

The main issue doing that would be that you really don't have any "reserve" if you hit a cloudy day or have to park in limited sun, but still plenty doable with your genset to hold you over and/or until you're able to increase your AGM capacity. Realizing of course that 300watts isn't really enough to feed a larger battery bank, but it would extend stayable days with what you have (without excessive genset requirements) and a "reserve" capability. [The use a little, add a little daily approach... it will take longer before your battery bank hits 50% SOC.]

As for the FLA's... I would repurpose them or just set them off to the side for core exchanges on more AGM's. It might also be possible to sell them on craigslist or some such, but it doesn't make complete sense to me to spend more money to squeeze a little more outta "what I got" that will eventually be obsolete gear, and require a rewiring, once I fill out my AGM capacity. KWIM?

My preferred option falls more into my own KISS and maximizing efficiency "comfort zone". It's certainly not the only or possibly even "best" option for you.

That's also with the caveat that it would, of course, depend on what your daily energy requirements are... which is why I'm always harping on energy audit, energy audit & energy audit as the three FIRST and most critical steps when planning an off-cord RV electrical system.

"Can" what you are proposing be done? Of course! You're not going to "break" anything or blow anything up, however, I don't see going to the additional expense and complexity as having much more worthwhile benefit over just running a single mixed (combined) AGM/FLA bank. Set your charge rates to the FLA's and let'er run. The biggest down side there would be that you invested some hefty bones into your AGM's that you wouldn't "realize", they would perform on level with your old FLA's and the life expetency would be shortened.

The nutshell? IMO:

#1. Loose the FLA's and live on your AGM bank. Expand capacity as you're able... but you "may" find it unnecessary... from what I've taken from your posts.

#2. Run the banks completely independent with shore/genset charge options only on the FLA bank.

[oldjohnt]

Looks like Yarome and I are on the same page (good or bad ?????????? lol)

Here's one, of many other, methods to consider if you're sticking with two battery banks, FLA and AGM......... It sounds similar to Yarome's but FWIW here goes.

 1) Let you Solar panels and charge controller (set for AGM) charge ONLY the AGM bank...

 2) Let your onboard Converter/Charger (set for FLA) charge ONLY your FLA bank...

 3) When plugged to shore power you don't need the Inverter WELL DUH, its ONLY powered off your AGM's when dry camping or driving WE ALREADY HAVE THAT ALL COVERED ABOVE

 4) Power the Inverter ONLY off the AGM bank for dry camping.  WE ALREADY HAVE THAT ALL COVERED ABOVE

 5) Use a sufficient current rated manual AB switch to switch Loads from EITHER      AGM orrrrrrrr FLA.    That way when dry camped run 12 VDC and 120 VAC via Inverter off the AGM which is charged from your solar,,,,,,,,,,,But when plugged to shore power run your 12 VDC loads off FLA which is getting charged via your Converter/Charger, and the 120 VAC via the utility shore power.. That's gonna  require some big cables and switch ya know but simpler then using relays or a transfer switch perhaps ???? YOUR CHOICE

SURE if you insist on charging BOTH at the same time connected in parallel (maybe using an isolation relay) either your Solar charge controller orrrrrrrrrrr your Converter/Charger will supply charge (albeit imperfect) to BOTH but its just NOT the way I would choose to do it, (did I mention I don't like those two in parallel lol). Sure a diode in between can prevent current flow in one direction or the other but there would be a 0.6 voltage drop across it and charge balance between AGM and FLA wouldn't be ideal....but sure it can "work" and "probably" NOT severely harm either bank, do it if you please.... 

Then save your pennies and buy a couple more AGM's in the future ?????????????? Maybe Yarome will float you a loan ???????????

That's my story n Ima stickin to it

John T

 

 

 

[Yarome]

2 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

Looks like Yarome and I are on the same page (good or bad ?????????? lol)

Scary, ain't it! 😁

Sounds about like the same animal though.

In mine:
AGM bank input: Solar controller (set for AGM's) and converter/charger (set for FLA's) Output: To house and inverter. As desired.
FLA bank input: Converter/charger only (set for FLA's). Output: To house and inverter. As desired.

*The converter/charger "can" have the settings changed between FLA's and AGM's, but it's not particularly necessary and doing so could lead to some confusion when switching between banks. The fear there being excessive offgassing of the FLA's if you forget to switch it back to FLA after charging the AGM bank. I would set it'n forget it. The best option, of course, would be to use a "custom" setting to set compromised rates between the two banks.

Switching converter/charger input (shore power or genset) or output to the house and inverter AB switch is accomplished with a primary AB switch on the 12v line leading to the PD panel. The secondary AB switch on the inverter for selecting AGM or FLA banks.

Both banks remain isolated from each other and the only thing you're really giving up is the ability to charge the FLA bank off solar.. 

In John's:

The only variation appears to be... from how I "read" it... is limiting the inverter to the AGM bank, which would do away with the need for secondary fusing (for the inverter), the AB switch on the inverter and the additional wire run. The solar controller may be the "primary" charge source on your AGM's, but with the ability to switch house loads from either AGM or FLA comes the ability to charge the AGM's from the converter as well, so, no variation there.

Aside from the dual fusing and AB switches... the other thing that doesn't excite me is the need for dual battery monitors. You could easily be looking at $200+ to run and monitor a secondary bank, under my outline, (which is likely only $180-$250 in batteries)... that may end up being no longer required if the AGM bank is expanded. That needs to be considered as well in the decision making process.

System design is fun. Installation is fun. "Tweaking" a system for maximum performance is fun. After that though... outside of regular maintanence checks... I don't want to "have" to think about it. Ie., flip switches, flip flop settings as required, or worry about what's charging what at what rate.

That's just me though. With my current AGM bank "regular maintanence" boils down to raising the end of my bed every 6 months-ish to make sure my batteries are still there. 😉

Ken, I would be very curious to see what your energy audit looks like. I know I could live perfect fine on 225ah's (current bank is 440ah's)... and I highly suspect John would be in the same boat even though his energy requirements are a shade higher than mine (I'm a solo), but moving to more solar and larger battery banks, for me, is more about reserve capacity and being rather anti genset dependent. Being tied to the house babysitting a running genset isn't really my idea of a good time. Besides... even "quiet" ones are noisy in quiet/natural settings and they stink! 😉

[oldjohnt]

Yarome, just as a  short side and NOT meaning to hijack Kens great questions, I JUST TODAY added a 4th rooftop solar panel taking me up to 950 total watts. Two people in my small 29 Ft Class C isn't any energy hog (extra small Inverter powered dorm fridge 24/7 and CPAP each night plus usual LED and Water Pump and Vent fans etc  and small electronics) so basically the ONLY reason I added the 4th panel was if we park long term in a deep total canopy cover forest and its rainy n cloudy for a couple days I wasn't quite able to keep up (Four Trojan T-105 = 450 Amp Hours) to my satisfaction grrrrrrrrrrr. In normal average sunlight I often reached 100% SOC early morning but NOTTTTTTTT in full shade and rain n clouds and an extra 235 watts may still not accomplish that, BUT IT HAS TO BE BETTER LOL If not I'm running out of roof room and I have a 4KW Genset and PD 9280  80 Amp Smart Charger !!!! Take that rain n clouds lol 

John T

[tigergriz]

Well, as usual, you guys do not disappoint, thank you, I will keep them separate, I do have them isolated with my A,B, both switch, I just won't use both until I  can afford more same size/brand AGM's.

I am hoping to get away with just 1 gen. the I-2000 powered by Yamaha, it fits nicely in the basement and I am fabricating a slide out for it as I type, so I just open the side bay, slide it out and fire it up, will upload pics when im done, for now I am fighting bay location haveing to move it a couple of inches to the side as I couldnt forsee a welded bracket on the back side of the beam I am attaching to, and of coarse I was positioned so I had to drill right into a weld, and I am letting the weld win  tommorrow I move it and hopefully fabricate my locking hold down bracket, I want it to lock it to the beam while in the bay, and keep it locked to the slide when running, wish me luck  

On another note, my solar charge controller is hard to read, "Renogy kit with adventurer charge controller" it also has limited very fine print instructions so I was wanting to get advice on a battery condition monitor, can I just tap into the same leads supplying the charge to the AGM batteries from the controller?

and mount it nearby, also does it draw much current to use the monitor? 

[Yarome]

An A-IPower... gotcha. I thought you had a Yamaha (vs. Yamaha engine "powered"). The only suggestion I might have there... if you plan to run it mounted... is to install hard rubber vibration dampners between the frame and mounting points. Even a 1/8"-1/4" thick would be helpful, but thicker would be better. Of course... ensuring the exhaust isn't anywhere near your batteries (off-gassing concern) or other fuel sources.

If a single is able to run your aircon after the microair install you should be good to go. Charging off a single is a non-issue.

The online manual for the controller might be much easier to read. There is also an installation guide on their website if needed.

Battery monitor... you really can't go wrong with a Trimetric. They are fairly affordable, reliable, accurate and kind of a "main-stay". Even though I have montoring via my solar controller and inverter/charger remotes... I also have a trimetric for the "big picture" view of all incoming/outgoing current.

Installation would require a shunt that should be mounted as closely as possible to the battery. The direct to battery connection on one side of the shunt and all other incoming/outgoing connections on the opposite side.

Lookin pretty good there, Ken!

[Yarome]

13 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

I JUST TODAY added a 4th rooftop solar panel taking me up to 950 total watts.

😄😄

@John. Whatcha tryin to do there?!? Power your own little rollin city?

I getcha though... even 15% off another 235 on a cloudy day is nothin to sneeze at. Your biggest hog is your dorm fridge, but heck... during the hottest part of the day... when it's workin the hardest... it's all free juice anyhow packing that much up top. How's your CCC holdin up? 😉

[For the sake of others: Meaning that his bank it topped off in the morning so the refer is running off excess production rather than his battery bank.]

I've "thought" about tossing a little more upstairs, but to do that I would have to go with another 270 (2x135's) to balance my arrays. That's a bit overkill. Or... to be perfectly honest... would give me more days of excess to do laundry that I now have an excuse to procrastinate. I've elected to hold off. 🤣

[oldjohnt]

Ken, nice lookin installation. Yarome has you well covered. As long as the exhaust is properly vented and there's no resulting sparkies produced near your batteries, you should be good to go. Regarding the gensets potentially harmful exhaust, ideally I like those "Venturi's"  (or whatever they're called)  that carry exhaust gasses above the RV roofline versus lower where it could sneak into your or a close neighbors RV. I take it you can plug your RV power cord into a genset receptacle same as you plug into your Inverter ??? Some small portable gensets have a Bonded Neutral while others leave it Floating. It can still work either way, but if you have an EMS or other similar wiring detection device it may go bonkers if the Genset uses a Floating Neutral.

My Solar Charge Controller has onboard SOC and Amps and Volts so I get by without any other battery monitors but know the Trimetric would provide more info.

You're gettin there

John T

[Yarome]

58 minutes ago, oldjohnt said:

...but if you have an EMS or other similar wiring detection device it may go bonkers if the Genset uses a Floating Neutral.

Good point. The A-I's do float the neutral so, as John mentioned, you "may" need a ground to neutral plug (couple bucks to make one) for your genset if you plan to pass gen power through an EMS.

Having an EMS is a "really" good idea. You can manually test a pedestal before plugging in to avoid many mishaps due to miswiring or other issues, but pedestal power is not always constant. Brownouts and spikes are not uncommon which can do considerable damage to onboard electronics.

If you don't already have one, Progressive Industries makes some of the best on the market, IMHO. Not just their products but lifetime replacement warranty and their customer service is bar none. They have both portable (plug into the pedestal) and hardwired (internally installed near the PD panel) units.

If you will "need" a ground to neutral plug would depend on what type of EMS (portable vs. hardwired) and how you plan to use it. Most folks opt for the ease of a hardwired. If you spend the majority of your time connected to a pedestal then that's generally the best option. Portables... if not secured... will sometimes grow legs. With a hardwired though you would be passing genset power through it so a ground to neutral plug is required.

I use a portable EMS since I almost never plug into shore power and prefer not to have another device "in-line" between my genset and PD panel. With a portable inverter generator... an EMS isn't necessary, IMO, since the output is a "known" source (constant and "clean") and already has built in protections. Some folks still do though as a "better safe than sorry" measure. 

As such, I don't "require" a ground to neutral plug, but I still carry one.

Here's a photo of a couple G-N plugs. Pretty self explanatory, but basically just a blank male plug with the ground and neutral jumpered then plugged into an outlet on your genset to form the G-N bond. "Down-n-dirty" method is just to cut the male plug off an old extension cord, twist the G and N wires together then cap and tape em up. 

[Yarome]

1 hour ago, oldjohnt said:

...Solar Charge Controller has onboard SOC and Amps and Volts so I get by without any other battery monitors but know the Trimetric would provide more info.

Exactly. It also depends on the solar controller. Some display only a representation of "expected" battery levels based on what size battery bank you tell the controller you have, some have only voltage sensors (better, but not entirely accurate as voltage only reflects actual capacity at a rested state) and others will have shunt (amp) sensors that will display battery levels based on voltage and amps in/out.

Ken, in case you were wondering... the one you have has a voltage sensor. 

[tigergriz]

Wow, you guys are GOOD, I did not even know about EMS and why I might need one, and they look a little pricey, And thank you Yarome, but my gen mount is not finished in these pictures, I worked pretty much all day on a locking system to it from growing legs, we have lots of zombies in Redding ca. where I live, anyway it will be locked down to the slide mount when out, and the same mount plus one more will lock it back in travel mode incase someone prys open the bay, it will not go without a lot of work and a portable cuttoff saw  , and yes the exzaust would be aimed out of the bay and the opposite direction as the bats, I am using its stock rubber feet, and I wish I read this earlier I did not, yet, add extra rubber, but if its annoying I will  I am hoping to find a good wireless bat monitor, oh and thanks for the link to my manual, I tried to use that on line this morning but the instructions state to hold enter the hit select and that is wrong, you have to select the item you want to change IE battery type then hold enter, I ended up getting that little trick from tech. support this AM  I suggested they fix there manual, thanks for all the help guys, I am camping this weekend so I am trying to tie up my loose ends, I hit somewhat of a wall today as I did more research on what I was afraid may be true, and it is, my truck is not big enough to comfortably tow my fifth wheel, I kinda knew that but didn't want to believe it, I have a 2006 GMC Sierra 1500 with 5.3 vortek automatic trans with tow mode 111,000mi. and good electric brakes, just put 4 new trailer tires on, adjusted the brakes all new axle bearings and changed the tranny fluid and filter, but I am crossing my fingers, and say a prayer for me, I am pulling some good hills to the coast 3 hr drive from here the book says it can haule 8000lbs fifth wheel trailer my RV weighs 8600 wet so I am looking for a diesel, but can't afford much, hoping to come across a good deal, keep eyes peeled for me.

[tigergriz]

On 4/30/2018 at 5:52 AM, Yarome said:

Yeah. That was the remark I noted... hence the reminder that the reading was in AC amps... not DC, which is where the go-juice is actually coming from. 

It's a nice intermediary option though between fully manual or full auto. The converter is the greatest offender anyway so having that automated is sure a step up. It's easy enough to hit the LP button on the refer and kill the WH without having to get down on your hands and knees to flip breakers. THAT get's old real quick! 😉

He seems to be much more comfortable going that route so that's always a positive. The "trust factor" in his system will be much higher as well since he knows the nuts and bolts of it and is familiar with all the workings.

I hear ya. I might keep my nuker in my subpanel, but when you remember the 2ah/minute... and theres a slight cloud cover... sometimes lukewarm is good enough!

Hey now... don't laugh! I'm the original installer and don't think for a second I haven't had a few "moments" myself asking, "now what the heck does THAT go to?!?" It might be I've just inhaled too much blue smoke in my day, or an age thing, but I prefer to think of it in term of, "I'm SO good I can even stump myself!" 😁

You guys are awesome, crack me up too, yea I was going to call the fridge 5 amps as it seemed low to me but not an issue if I just tell it go to l.p. and I am the kind of guy that has to do a sketch to understand things I'm building so I already did a quick one, I will see if I can post a picture of it, but no laughing

ok my pics are too big even at 2 mb so that won't happen 20 amp relay coming this week dpdt I also have 2 Yamaha 2000I generators I can run in series kind of a pain but if I want A/C it's what I got I already ran the a/c with them they put out a continuous 3600 watts I have to drag them out of the basement to run them but it's worth it to me, we have a lot of zombies romming the streets at nite so I want to figure out a good way to combine mounting and locking them in my compartment I already changed the ch751 locks out for barrel locks but doors a flimsy I also have a bolt cutter proof lock and chain for when running outside I am designing mounts in my head to somehow go thru the handles and lock with like a steel plate, I have a welder so it will come to me, any thoughts/ tips on running my generators ?

thanks again guys for all the help

[tigergriz]

4You guys have helped me so much it feels like family, so here's the update, the Friday morning I was going to leave I found a Chevy 2500hd vortex 8.1 with 170000 miles I had the dealer mount my hitch and brake controller and went to leave 5pm raraining anyways) and my brakes were set, they said they would try to fix it in the morning, I did my research and found gm moved blue wire location from 06 to 01 so I just pulled the pin and moved it, and was on my way, from there great trip over and back didn't even need my gen but it was ready, inverter did fine microwave my daughter's dinners:( we had bbq, anyway, Thanks again.