10ga wire help mystery wires

[Yarome]

"...too many amps..." 
Correct. Multiple NC's would be required and contribute to your rigs "parasitic" load. Not that it couldn't be done though. There are some additional "cons" going that route, but I'll just concentrate on the sub-panel info and you can decide which direction you'de like to go.

"I don't see an easy way to run wires"
Once you get behind the PD (power distribution panel) you'll likely note wiring paths and/or existing wiring holes down to your basement. If it doesn't just drop your existing wire straight down into the basement it's often easy enough to use one of the existing cables (like the battery cable) as a wire pull for a new line without having to get into the walls or drill a new hole. [Note: Don't forget to attach an additional string or such along with the new wire in order to pull the old cable back.] In that case... using a second pair of hands to work each end of the cable back and forth will give you a good idea of how much ease/pain it will be to use the existing cable path for the addition.

Worst case? Drill.

"Why couldn't I run that under the coach and pop up in the main panels conpartment?"
Exactly! And a 2000watt inverter on 10ga... you're good to go.

Psst: When your done... not a bad time to fill any holes leading to the basement with expanding foam. Gauranteed.. the MFG. didn't when they built it. Helps with insulation factors but mainly... helps keep bugs/critters out. I use 0000 steel wool anywhere I can stuff it then foam it. Field mice will chew through foam, but not steel wool. (As long as you've got the foam and steel wool out.. might do the water pipe holes as well! 😉)

More fashionable plates: Meh... The one I use isn't made any more, but this is another flush mount I've used. If you're creative, a cover plate can also be attached to spruce up the appearance. I haven't shopped for one in awhile so others might have some other suggestions.

"not sure I'm not missing something"
Not likely. Like a S&B breaker box, removing the faceplate gives you access, but running wires (rear access) you'll probably want to pull the whole unit. Remove the screws behind the faceplate and the PD/converter unit will slide out.

Depending on the type of breakers you currently have installed, they "should" fit just fine in that particular subpanel and can simply be moved over. You will need 1 new 30amp breaker though to create a new circuit in the main panel that will feed the subpanel when shore power is present.

Transfer switch: Yes. If your inverter has an internal pass through/transfer switch ("AC IN") you can just use that. If not then you'll need a stand alone ATS for the subpanel feed circuit (from the main panel) and the inverters "AC OUT".

Here's how it "runs":

Inverter only fed circuits are moved to the subpanel. A 30amp circuit is added to the main panel and feeds the subpanel when shore power is present. That circuit will run to the inverters AC IN or to the ATS primary IN. The inverters AC OUT would then run either to the subpanel or to the ATS's secondary, and the ATS's AC OUT would then run to feed the subpanel.

Does that make sense?

Shore power "ON": All circuits in the main panel are "live" and current is fed to the subpanel circuits. If using the inverters pass through... the inverter on or off... everything is "hot" from shore power passing through the inverters AC OUT to the subpanel. With a stand-alone ATS... shore power is primary so if the inverter is on or off the subpanel is still fed by shore power.

In either situation it's perfectly fine to leave your inverter on/standby/idle and will have no affect on your battery bank.

Shore power "OFF": All circuits in the main panel are dead (including the subpanel circuit). Inverter kicks on and your subpanel circuits, ONLY, are "hot".

To add to your shopping list would be some romex, wire nuts and electrical tape. You'll need to run the subpanel circuit from the main panel. If the existing wiring on the circuits being moved isn't long enough then you may also need to extend those wires. Hence the wire nuts and electrical tape.

Once you "get" what feeds what and when, it's actually much simpler than it might sound. It only has to be done once and you'll never have to think about it again... like magic! 😉 

This is a link to a diaghram by Jack Mayer who is the resident RV electrical guru here. Some of it doesn't apply to your situation, but the breaker panels, solar and battery bank sections might help solidfy in your mind what's going on. You'll note the AC IN and OUT through the inverter. If you'll be using a stand alone ATS instead... well, I'm sure you can figure that part out. 😉

[oldjohnt]

OOPs

[oldjohnt]

8 hours ago, tigergriz said:

Hi John,

Yes as Yarome states in the next post, my fridge is A/C or LP and automatically goes to A/C when it sees A/C, so I gotta kill it, but I like both ideas yours and Yaromes about the sub panel, but I gotta look at the back of the main and check space for either, I have tomorrow off so I am diving in, but what caught my eye was,

"perhaps one single 15/20 amp branch circuit in your panel can be re configured so it feeds the Converter and whatever else is critical and MUST be off when the Inverter is on ??????????? That way you only need ONE NC relay rated for say 20 amps located after/downstream of a single 15/20 amp circuit breaker"

I like the simplicity of that, as long as the converter, fridge and water heater can be on the same...wait a minute, I can answer that, no, too many amps, for one circuit,

Tiger and Yarome,

1) My concern and the reason I asked why you need to kill the fridge UNLESS its a 120 VAC compressor type only (Yes I know how all this works), IS BECAUSE WHEN DRY CAMPING AND THERES NO 120 VAC    UNLESS    YOU ARE THEN POWERING UP THE FRIDGE VIA THE INVERTER ??????? ITS GOING TO RUN ON LP GAS AND 12 VDC SO THERES NO NEED TO KILL IT. Yes I'm well aware of auto switching and on my system the fridge IS NOT wired to my Inverter system so no need to kill it when on Inverter power (It sees no 120 so it auto switches to LP). YES if you use one of the (many) possible suggested methods and power the entire RV off the Inverter then you have to do as I suggested and turn off and/or transfer switch any high current loads when on Inverter power. WELL DUH we all know that

2) In the event you ONLY need to turn off the Converter and perhaps one or two other low power loads ONE 20 AMP BRANCH CIRCUIT "MIGHT" SUFFICE...............I assumed a LP Gas water heater !!!!!!!!!!!!! and it operates on 12 VDC battery power HOWEVER if its a 120 VAC heater that's different. An "electric" water heater and the Converter (BUT subject to its current) and fridge may well crowd the ampacity of a 20 amp branch circuit. If the Converter drew lets say 10 amps (I don't know but it may be 5 to 15+ subject to its rating???),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the fridge if a dual power maybe 5 amps (no idea of your size) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,an "electric" water heater is likely the straw that broke the camels back BUT no problem if its LP Gas,  HOWEVER a smaller sized Converter (say 10 amps) and an LP Electric Fridge (say 5 amps) is under the 16 amps I would place on a 20 amp branch circuit   IE one 20 amp branch circuit may be okay for a smaller Converter and an LP/Electric Fridge   BUT SEE NOTE BELOW. When dry camping I run my fridge on LP Gas NEVER the Inverter   

If the Fridge is wired like mine and left on the RV panel ONLY, cant ever get connected to Inverter Power, and is an auto x fer, when dry camping its going to operate on LP gas and 12 VDC NO PROBLEM  

NOTE don't anyone get the idea I'm proposing running the fridge off the Inverter when dry camping, THIS IS ONLY FOR ILLUSTRATING PURPOSES. If the fridge is configured ONLY on utility power no need to deal with it, when unplugged it runs on LP gas and 12 VDC often via the auto switch,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,If you plug the entire RV into the Inverter when dry camping and driving (ONE easy simple of the many methods) then YES you would want to turn off the fridge and Converter and especially a 120 VAC Water Heater DUH    

3) Soooooooooooooooo it  now depends on how much time effort and expense and how accessible the components are for YOU to  make YOUR decision.

  A) As a past electrical power distribution design engineer my preference would be install a Sub Panel and a Transfer Switch such that when on utility power it, not the Inverter, powers up the Converter and whatever else you choose, but if on the Inverter  ONLY selected loads are Inverter powered            HOWEVER    when dry camping the Converter is OFF,,,,,,,,,,,,,Fridge is on LP and 12 VDC,,,,,,,,,, orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

b) In order to make things easier and cheaper an alternative may be to take a 15/20 amp branch circuit AFTER the panel breaker used to feed the Converter and install a 120 VAC coil operated NC relay that's energized when the Inverters 120 VAC is produced to TURN OFF the Converter and/or whatever else is on that branch circuit................

4) If you choose to plug the entire RV into a 30 amp receptacle located in the power cord storage area that's Inverter fed OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO MANUALLY OR AUTOMATICALLY OR BY WHATEVER METHOD turn off selected loads.

NOTICE we are trying our best to provide guidance so you can make an informed decision BUT we don't have all the info and know all your loads and system and have to make some best guesses SO THIS ISNT GOING TO BE PERFECT OR EXACT its the best I can do under the circumstances.

NOTE sub panels aren't all that big and an auto transfer relay isn't all that expensive or big either BUT a single NC relay and wiring the Inverters output to a 30 amp receptacle is cheaper and easier in order to power the entire RV BUTTTTTTTTTTTT you may have to flip off other breakers in the panel OR ELSE just remember NOT to turn on the AC or other high current loads when dry camping !!!!!!!!!!!! WE CNAT MAKE THAT DECISION FOR YOU

YOUR QUESTION ABOVE

 "" A Haa, so hopefully what is left after I split those circuits is what I need when dry camping, but wait a minute if I split it then how do I get shore power to what I have removed from it? seems like I would have to have a transfer switch there right? ""

 YES if you go the sub panel route, YOU NEED SOME SORT OF A TRANSFER METHOD/DEVICE/RELAYS. How a Transfer Switch works is the OUTPUT feeds the sub panel BUT it has TWO SELECTABLE INPUTS (Utility OR Inverter)..........You then design and configure your system so when on Utility the Converter (and whatever else) is on,,,,,,,,,,,,,, But when on Inverter power the Converter is off. AGAIN THERE ARE "DIFFERENT" METHODS TO DO ALL THIS including the easy cheap simple (NC relay to run Converter ONLY on Utility)  orrrrrrrrrrrrrr the sub panel and xfer method.

Iffffffffffff the ONLY thing needed is to turn off the Converter when dry camping or driving that's cheap easy and simple BUTTTTTTTTTT if you need to or choose to deal with the fridge,,,,,,,,,,,, and water heater,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and Converter, and subject to the current draw, and prefer a more automatic system,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,IT GETS MORE COMPLICATED AND EXPENSIVE.

You know they make relays with a single operating coil BUTTTTTTTTTT several sets of NC and/or NO contacts and certain relays can in effect work as a Transfer Method !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  IE correct relays might be configured to serve in effect as a transfer method and in certain situations you might get by without any sub panel at all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John T  Long retired Electrical Power Distribution Design Engineer and rusty on the NEC so NO WARRANTY these are only a few of the MANY methods to accomplish your goal not knowing all your loads and equipment specs and system and your budget and accessibility to these devices,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Yarome]

I had to read this several times and "think" I got the jist of it. 😉

1. "Unless you are then powering up the fridge via the inverter it's going to run on LP gas... theres no need to kill it."
Well, yes. But the discussion has been about running on inverter... what needs to be done, options, etc. I wasn't saying you need to kill it when there is no 120v present.

"on my system the fridge is not wired to my inverter system so no need to kill it when on inverter power"
Not quite sure where to go with that, but probabl not germane to the OP, so...

Hence my confusion at the question about why does it need to be shut off... when the discussion was about powering the circuit panel directly from the inverter.

2. When we're talking about combining 3 utilities on a single AC circuit then AC operational loads are the only consideration. They dunna "fit". 😉 12v/LP operations and power requirements have no impact as they are completely unrelated systems.

[oldjohnt]

Good discussion Yarome, Thanks, I think were on the same page basically, I'm just trying to give him all the options and discuss the pros and cons of each. He first spoke of a NC Relay and then he started asking about sub panels and xfer switches etc. Combined we threw a lot at him lol

Tiger, ifffffffffffffff your Converter PLUS the Fridge while on AC doesn't draw more the say 16 amps maximum (No elec water heater mind you),,,,,,,,,,,,,BOTH of those would work on a single 20 amp branch circuit. You could run that circuit through a 20 amp NC relay but if the Inverter is on its 120 will toggle and open the relay so the Inverter doesn't have to power the Converter and the fridge will auto switch to LP Gas !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  PIECE OF CAKE That and plug the RV into an Inverter fed receptacle is about the easiest simplest and cheapest way to go HOWEVER you cant turn on an AC or hair dryer etc to any outlets  or else flip their breakers off. ALSO if one circuit lacks sufficient ampacity (as you questioned),  just use two circuits BUT ONE RELAY CAN GET YOU BY like a Double Pole so the Converter switches via one set of NC contacts while the Fridge (or whatever) switches off via the other set of contacts THIS CAN BE DONE SOOOOOOOOO EASY

However a sub panel and transfer method can make things more automatic

NOTE you can buy like SPDT or DPDT (Double Pole Double Throw) 120 VAC coil powered relays, each POLE can select from two THROWS A or B NC and NO and that's sort of like a cheap n easy transfer method if you don't go the sub panel and x fer switch route..........Or as mentioned above a Double Pole Relay (NC but opens if Inverter power is present) can switch the Converter and other devices if one 20 amp circuit isn't sufficient for two devices !!

Sooooooooooooo many ways to do this, once you decide on which method we can help more, but I think we gave you plenty to chew on in the meantime, we try our best.............And SURE there are OTHER methods but I'm not going there now lol Yarome and I already gave you enough options.................. 

FWIW I just use my PSW Inverter for TV and small electronics and charging etc by installing receptacles in strategic locations so I plug to the Inverter receptacles when dry camping or driving but plug to the Utility when hooked up. SURE its a small bit of trouble, BUT there's no darn sub panels or switches or transfers or relays to go bad or mess with. I don't have to worry with switching my fridge (auto to LP Gas if no power) or water heater (its LP Gas and 12 VDC)  BUTTTTTTTT its not as handy as if I had a sub panel and x fer switch like the " big boys"   K I S S

John T

[tigergriz]

12 hours ago, Yarome said:

"...too many amps..." 
Correct. Multiple NC's would be required and contribute to your rigs "parasitic" load. Not that it couldn't be done though. There are some additional "cons" going that route, but I'll just concentrate on the sub-panel info and you can decide which direction you'de like to go.

"I don't see an easy way to run wires"
Once you get behind the PD (power distribution panel) you'll likely note wiring paths and/or existing wiring holes down to your basement. If it doesn't just drop your existing wire straight down into the basement it's often easy enough to use one of the existing cables (like the battery cable) as a wire pull for a new line without having to get into the walls or drill a new hole. [Note: Don't forget to attach an additional string or such along with the new wire in order to pull the old cable back.] In that case... using a second pair of hands to work each end of the cable back and forth will give you a good idea of how much ease/pain it will be to use the existing cable path for the addition.

Worst case? Drill.

"Why couldn't I run that under the coach and pop up in the main panels conpartment?"
Exactly! And a 2000watt inverter on 10ga... you're good to go.

Psst: When your done... not a bad time to fill any holes leading to the basement with expanding foam. Gauranteed.. the MFG. didn't when they built it. Helps with insulation factors but mainly... helps keep bugs/critters out. I use 0000 steel wool anywhere I can stuff it then foam it. Field mice will chew through foam, but not steel wool. (As long as you've got the foam and steel wool out.. might do the water pipe holes as well! 😉)

More fashionable plates: Meh... The one I use isn't made any more, but this is another flush mount I've used. If you're creative, a cover plate can also be attached to spruce up the appearance. I haven't shopped for one in awhile so others might have some other suggestions.

"not sure I'm not missing something"
Not likely. Like a S&B breaker box, removing the faceplate gives you access, but running wires (rear access) you'll probably want to pull the whole unit. Remove the screws behind the faceplate and the PD/converter unit will slide out.

Depending on the type of breakers you currently have installed, they "should" fit just fine in that particular subpanel and can simply be moved over. You will need 1 new 30amp breaker though to create a new circuit in the main panel that will feed the subpanel when shore power is present.

Transfer switch: Yes. If your inverter has an internal pass through/transfer switch ("AC IN") you can just use that. If not then you'll need a stand alone ATS for the subpanel feed circuit (from the main panel) and the inverters "AC OUT".

Here's how it "runs":

Inverter only fed circuits are moved to the subpanel. A 30amp circuit is added to the main panel and feeds the subpanel when shore power is present. That circuit will run to the inverters AC IN or to the ATS primary IN. The inverters AC OUT would then run either to the subpanel or to the ATS's secondary, and the ATS's AC OUT would then run to feed the subpanel.

Does that make sense?

Shore power "ON": All circuits in the main panel are "live" and current is fed to the subpanel circuits. If using the inverters pass through... the inverter on or off... everything is "hot" from shore power passing through the inverters AC OUT to the subpanel. With a stand-alone ATS... shore power is primary so if the inverter is on or off the subpanel is still fed by shore power.

In either situation it's perfectly fine to leave your inverter on/standby/idle and will have no affect on your battery bank.

Shore power "OFF": All circuits in the main panel are dead (including the subpanel circuit). Inverter kicks on and your subpanel circuits, ONLY, are "hot".

To add to your shopping list would be some romex, wire nuts and electrical tape. You'll need to run the subpanel circuit from the main panel. If the existing wiring on the circuits being moved isn't long enough then you may also need to extend those wires. Hence the wire nuts and electrical tape.

Once you "get" what feeds what and when, it's actually much simpler than it might sound. It only has to be done once and you'll never have to think about it again... like magic! 😉 

This is a link to a diaghram by Jack Mayer who is the resident RV electrical guru here. Some of it doesn't apply to your situation, but the breaker panels, solar and battery bank sections might help solidfy in your mind what's going on. You'll note the AC IN and OUT through the inverter. If you'll be using a stand alone ATS instead... well, I'm sure you can figure that part out. 😉

Thanks again for the help, after opening up and flipping breakers while checking every single outlet, I find the microwave has it's own breaker 20 amp and 1 outlet my microwave draws 8.3 amps I also found the converter 6.5 amps and it is wired with all of the outlets and the fridge on one 20 amp breaker and the water heater, amps unknown for now has it's own like breaker and outlet, and unfortunately my inverter 3000 watt pure sine windy nation vertamax pin 3000 12p has no pass thru so i will read this all again and do some shopping tonight as i am doing this on my phone now looks like a sub panel and an ats, will check back later, thanks again very very much for the help guys.

[oldjohnt]

Tiger, thanks for the feedback. It looks like the Converter is within the "guess" I was thinking of maybe 5 to 10 amps BUT it depended on its rating. HOWEVER, as its on the same branch circuit with several other loads and you want the ability to turn IT off when the Inverter is on, some minor re wiring is in order but its not rocket science. Good news possibly, however, if the fridge draws lets use say 5 amps (Pure guess absent its specs, may be way off), that and the Converters 6.5 amps, or 11.5 amps total  IS STILL WITHIN THE CAPACITY OF EVEN A SINGLE 15 AMP BRANCH CIRCUIT and one NC relay that opens if Inverter is on if you so choose.

CAVEAT Your Converter might draw more amps if the battery is low !!!!!!!!! You need to know its absolute max current before deciding if you can put it and other loads on a single x amps circuit, or its may be better to have ONLY the Converter on that circuit.  

THEREFORE if alllllllllllllll you needed and chose to do is turn the Fridge and Converter off (the fridge auto switches to LP when dry camping)  when the Inverter turns on (provided the Converters max current is known see above Caveat) THATS A PIECE OF CAKE requiring a single NC 120 colt coil operated relay that gets its 120 volt power when the Inverter is flipped on. With Inverter off the utility feeds the Converter and fridge but when its on the NC relay opens to kill the fridge (so it auto switches to LP Gas) and Converter.............SEE CAVEAT

WATER HEATER if its on its own breaker and outlet already, I would "guess " its a 120 volt NOT LP Gas ????????????? If that's so, you cant power that via the relay and single branch circuit above along with the fridge and Converter grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr If it were LP Gas there's no problem as it runs on LP and 12 VDC................

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO you don't want to run an "electric" water heater using the Inverter THEREFORE if you chose the route (among others) of plugging the RV power cord into an inverter fed outlet when dry camping THE WATER HEATER ALSO NEEDS DISCONNECTED. Of course, that could involve utilizing yet one more NC relay still powered by the Inverter when on, but at least its already on its own circuit making that relay and circuit easy to wire.............ORRRRRRRRR they make multiple POLE relays, so using TWO branch circuits (fridge and Converter on one, water heater on other) BUT ONLY ONE RELAY with multiple 20 amp rated poles,  which is toggled by the Inverters 120 volts when on, CAN SWITCH ALL THREE LOADS OFF WHEN INVERTER IS ON. One relay does it all ..............PROVIDED the max currents of the Converter Fridge and water Heater are all known.. 

SUB PANEL AND ATS That system will also serve your needs, although its more complicated and expensive its still a good engineering sound approach. The sub panel can serve those loads you choose while the ATS can switch between sources. This can be done automatically so you don't have to do anything  yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy a good sound plan indeed............

RELAYS ALONE sure, there are all sorts of relays and configurations out there with multiple THOWS and multiple POLES and 120 VAC or 12 VDC operation coils. Those relays can be used to switch a device ON or OFF,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,to Switch/Transfer a load from one source or another,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,to enable or disable certain loads..............

OTHER WAYS I'm NOT going deep into here and it also depends on how you want to get what loads connected to what inputs (Inverter or Utility).  Plug and Receptacle,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Utilizing relays and/or transfer switches (auto or manual) ..............

FYI my simple single auto transfer switch method has my RV panel normally connected to the utility, however, if its sees power from my gensest (or it could be an Inverter) it delays for some time and then auto switches the RV panel to my genset  (could be an Inverter) NO WORK NO WORRIES YOU DONT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. Of course as you already know when on the Inverter you have to disable your Converter and Fridge and elec water heater SO SEE ALL THE ABOVE LOL

YOU GOT THIS now just decide on what method, be it those Yarome and I discussed or the manyyyyyyyyyyy others out there and post back any questions. Theres one fine group of electricians and technicians and engineers and RV experts here all willing to help you GOD BLESS THAM ALL

 

John T  

 

[tigergriz]

On 4/28/2018 at 4:38 AM, oldjohnt said:

Tiger, thanks for the feedback. It looks like the Converter is within the "guess" I was thinking of maybe 5 to 10 amps BUT it depended on its rating. HOWEVER, as its on the same branch circuit with several other loads and you want the ability to turn IT off when the Inverter is on, some minor re wiring is in order but its not rocket science. Good news possibly, however, if the fridge draws lets use say 5 amps (Pure guess absent its specs, may be way off), that and the Converters 6.5 amps, or 11.5 amps total  IS STILL WITHIN THE CAPACITY OF EVEN A SINGLE 15 AMP BRANCH CIRCUIT and one NC relay that opens if Inverter is on if you so choose.

CAVEAT Your Converter might draw more amps if the battery is low !!!!!!!!! You need to know its absolute max current before deciding if you can put it and other loads on a single x amps circuit, or its may be better to have ONLY the Converter on that circuit.  

THEREFORE if alllllllllllllll you needed and chose to do is turn the Fridge and Converter off (the fridge auto switches to LP when dry camping)  when the Inverter turns on (provided the Converters max current is known see above Caveat) THATS A PIECE OF CAKE requiring a single NC 120 colt coil operated relay that gets its 120 volt power when the Inverter is flipped on. With Inverter off the utility feeds the Converter and fridge but when its on the NC relay opens to kill the fridge (so it auto switches to LP Gas) and Converter.............SEE CAVEAT

WATER HEATER if its on its own breaker and outlet already, I would "guess " its a 120 volt NOT LP Gas ????????????? If that's so, you cant power that via the relay and single branch circuit above along with the fridge and Converter grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr If it were LP Gas there's no problem as it runs on LP and 12 VDC................

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO you don't want to run an "electric" water heater using the Inverter THEREFORE if you chose the route (among others) of plugging the RV power cord into an inverter fed outlet when dry camping THE WATER HEATER ALSO NEEDS DISCONNECTED. Of course, that could involve utilizing yet one more NC relay still powered by the Inverter when on, but at least its already on its own circuit making that relay and circuit easy to wire.............ORRRRRRRRR they make multiple POLE relays, so using TWO branch circuits (fridge and Converter on one, water heater on other) BUT ONLY ONE RELAY with multiple 20 amp rated poles,  which is toggled by the Inverters 120 volts when on, CAN SWITCH ALL THREE LOADS OFF WHEN INVERTER IS ON. One relay does it all ..............PROVIDED the max currents of the Converter Fridge and water Heater are all known.. 

SUB PANEL AND ATS That system will also serve your needs, although its more complicated and expensive its still a good engineering sound approach. The sub panel can serve those loads you choose while the ATS can switch between sources. This can be done automatically so you don't have to do anything  yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy a good sound plan indeed............

RELAYS ALONE sure, there are all sorts of relays and configurations out there with multiple THOWS and multiple POLES and 120 VAC or 12 VDC operation coils. Those relays can be used to switch a device ON or OFF,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,to Switch/Transfer a load from one source or another,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,to enable or disable certain loads..............

OTHER WAYS I'm NOT going deep into here and it also depends on how you want to get what loads connected to what inputs (Inverter or Utility).  Plug and Receptacle,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Utilizing relays and/or transfer switches (auto or manual) ..............

FYI my simple single auto transfer switch method has my RV panel normally connected to the utility, however, if its sees power from my gensest (or it could be an Inverter) it delays for some time and then auto switches the RV panel to my genset  (could be an Inverter) NO WORK NO WORRIES YOU DONT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. Of course as you already know when on the Inverter you have to disable your Converter and Fridge and elec water heater SO SEE ALL THE ABOVE LOL

YOU GOT THIS now just decide on what method, be it those Yarome and I discussed or the manyyyyyyyyyyy others out there and post back any questions. Theres one fine group of electricians and technicians and engineers and RV experts here all willing to help you GOD BLESS THAM ALL

 

John T  

 

I gotta say, you guys are quite helpful, I can't thank you enough, after chewing on it for a while, I want go with popping the converter wire over to the water heater breaker and use a relay, I have wired in a relay before, I know it, I understand it, it's cheap andand the amps add up to 18.5 but I have solar so I doubt I will see the converter at capacity, also I will be running the w/h on l.p. gas mostly so not a problem simply leave it unplugged and the receptical is inside, I cant do much on the fridge, but no big deal if I do run it inverted it's 2.5 amps or I use it's control panel and tell it to go to l.p., my questions are, can you point me at a specific relay please a link or part number, trying to not buy a panel mounted or socket type, the only one I found last time I did this was only 10 amps and very cool, it had wires to choose nc or no and small.

My other question is can't I just run a small 2 wire cord, no ground to said relay, I have run a dedicated chassis ground for the inverter plus the added ground lugs at the batteries.

[oldjohnt]

Tiger, I have to go soon and can try to shop for a relay later but for now on the quick let me say this.

1) On a 20 amp branch circuit I NEVER designed for more then 80% or 16 "Maximum Continuous Current" amperage, so 18.5 is tooooooooooo much for me. HOWEVER the term "Continuous Current" is a bit NEC complicated.............Of course a 30 amp branch circuit would be fine. If you can figure out your MAX Converter draw and the WH's MAX current draw, add them,  AND THEN UNDERSTAND AND COMPUTE THE NEC'S MAXIMUM "CONTINUOUS" CURRENT ???? heck a 20 amp circuit may do fine, but if not a 30 amp circuit will.

2) I see no problem NOT running a safety third wire Equipment Grounding Conductor to the Relay terminals. HOWEVER if located inside a conductive metallic enclosure IT needs grounded BUTTTTT not a plastic enclosure yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.   

My quick response is if you ONLY need a single relay that will switch a single branch circuit OFF if its fed with 120 VAC to its coil via the Inverter when on (like its second onboard outlet) you need a

 SPST (Single Pole Single Throw or sure a SPDT will work) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Normally Closed (NC) Opens on activation,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,20 or 30 amp rated contacts,,,,,,,,,,,120 VAC control coil.........

Of course a SPDT has BOTH NC and NO contacts so that's fine and there's also Multiple Pole relays (LIke DPDT) if needed IE if you need more then one branch circuit

As you ALREADY know but FWIW take a 20 or 30 amp branch circuit out of the panel after its breaker,,,,,,,,,,,,run it through the NC contacts of the relay,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,power its coil to the Inverter so when its on the relay opens and the Converter and WH are OFF

So Sorry I Gotta run but may check back later I may have some comments about Grounding but that gets soooooo long lol

PS hows about a single simple DPDT or even DPST NC relay, Fridge and Converter on ONE 20 amp circuit,,,,,,,,,,,,,WH on its own 20 amp circuit. If Inverter is ON, Fridge OFF AC so auto switches to LP,,,,,,,,,,,,Converter is OFF,,,,,,,,,,,,No 120 to WH  ?????????????? 4 wires from panel to relay, 120 VAC 3 wire SO Cord from Inverters outlet to relay DONE

John T

[tigergriz]

3 hours ago, oldjohnt said:

Tiger, I have to go soon and can try to shop for a relay later but for now on the quick let me say this.

1) On a 20 amp branch circuit I NEVER designed for more then 80% or 16 "Maximum Continuous Current" amperage, so 18.5 is tooooooooooo much for me. HOWEVER the term "Continuous Current" is a bit NEC complicated.............Of course a 30 amp branch circuit would be fine. If you can figure out your MAX Converter draw and the WH's MAX current draw, add them,  AND THEN UNDERSTAND AND COMPUTE THE NEC'S MAXIMUM "CONTINUOUS" CURRENT ???? heck a 20 amp circuit may do fine, but if not a 30 amp circuit will.

2) I see no problem NOT running a safety third wire Equipment Grounding Conductor to the Relay terminals. HOWEVER if located inside a conductive metallic enclosure IT needs grounded BUTTTTT not a plastic enclosure yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.   

My quick response is if you ONLY need a single relay that will switch a single branch circuit OFF if its fed with 120 VAC to its coil via the Inverter when on (like its second onboard outlet) you need a

 SPST (Single Pole Single Throw or sure a SPDT will work) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Normally Closed (NC) Opens on activation,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,20 or 30 amp rated contacts,,,,,,,,,,,120 VAC control coil.........

Of course a SPDT has BOTH NC and NO contacts so that's fine and there's also Multiple Pole relays (LIke DPDT) if needed IE if you need more then one branch circuit

As you ALREADY know but FWIW take a 20 or 30 amp branch circuit out of the panel after its breaker,,,,,,,,,,,,run it through the NC contacts of the relay,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,power its coil to the Inverter so when its on the relay opens and the Converter and WH are OFF

So Sorry I Gotta run but may check back later I may have some comments about Grounding but that gets soooooo long lol

PS hows about a single simple DPDT or even DPST NC relay, Fridge and Converter on ONE 20 amp circuit,,,,,,,,,,,,,WH on its own 20 amp circuit. If Inverter is ON, Fridge OFF AC so auto switches to LP,,,,,,,,,,,,Converter is OFF,,,,,,,,,,,,No 120 to WH  ?????????????? 4 wires from panel to relay, 120 VAC 3 wire SO Cord from Inverters outlet to relay DONE

John T

I got it, the converter wire is separate in the panel after the breaker, all I have to do is run it thru the relay and leave the wire to all receptacles alone, and I mean all the receptacles, then I can run the water heater on its own breaker and thru the same relay, so I guess I need a single throw double pole relay right? Oh and the fridge is on a branch way away from the panel that is tied into the all receptacles breaker so I can't separate it at the panel without defeating the purpose of having an inverter to power tv fans phone chargers etc. Not worried about the fridge at all. so what model relay do you recommend?

[oldjohnt]

Tiger, I'm back. As I mentioned above a DOUBLE POLE relay can be used as one single unit that still switches BOTH loads each on their own separate individual 20 amp branch circuit, Converter plus WH wired to a DPDT relay NO PROBLEM. I did a quick search on E Bay and its actually easier and more common to go ahead and purchase a DOUBLE THROW relay which has the one NC set of contacts you need as well as a NO set NO PROBLEM

The first URL is my basic search for a DPDT relay that has at least 20 amp current rated contacts, (one had 25) and a 120 VAC Coil  

 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=DPDT%2020%20amp%20120%20volt%20relay&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XDPDT%2020%20amp%20relay.TRS0&_nkw=DPDT%2020%20amp%20relay&_sacat=0#item4d7155402

Then I saw a few that met your specs.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Purpose-25-Amp-DPDT-120-VAC-Relay-NTE-R55-11A20-120F/332613894182?epid=1118263706&hash=item4d71554026:g:XXgAAOxy7nNTWTmk

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Relay-S86-Style-120-Vac-Coil-20-Amp-DPDT/272234008180?epid=1819335328&hash=item3f62694e74:g:-uEAAOSw9ZdXK3Yf

https://www.ebay.com/itm/JOHNSON-CONTROLS-RIB01P-Rib-20Amp-Dpdt-120Vac-G0835208/282620844054?epid=1734475681&hash=item41cd83d816:g:TIsAAOSwUM5aEVy0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Relay-S86-Style-120-VAC-Coil-20-Amp-DPDT/263415494334?hash=item3d54c976be:g:r8oAAOSwYeRaS227

You can mount the relay in a plastic enclosure (No ground required) with 4 wires to the panel (In and Out for WH and Converter) and a 3 wire cord/circuit to the Inverters 120 VAC output to turn the Converter and WH OFF when the Inverter is used.

NOTE as I said all along this was YOUR CHOICE as to how to accomplish your goal> This method works as well as a sub panel and automatic Transfer Switch and there were all other sorts of relay systems you could have used but this got deep enough without offering any more solutions lol  If you wanted more I could have given them.

John T

 

[Yarome]

That'll work!

Moot disucussion now, but for future reference or others considering the same.... Top draw if you were to combine the converter and refer anyway would have been ~8amps for the converter and 8amps~ish on the refer (size and climate depending). Although, typical usage would be much lower and only reach peak draw for a limited amout of time per hour while cycling. Well within a 20amp relay.

Where it "doesn't" fit is combining all three @ converter: 1-8a, refer: 5-8a and WH: 9-13amps.

I highly suspect that the 2.5amp reading you got with your refer on AC was likely a standby and/or + fan or other reading... or you have an extremely small refer. 🙂 During a heating/cooling cycle is would likely be more in the 5-8amp (AC) range.

Just a note: Running 2.5amps on inverter doesn't seem like much if you only consider AC amps, however... on 12VDC (which is feeding the inverter), you would be looking more at 30amps (including overhead)... or 30ah's out of your battery bank/hr.  @ 5amps... 60ah's, etc. They don't run 24/7 (or at least "shouldn't. But depending on climate and usage..), but while on inverter you need to be calculating loads and energy requirements on DCA's vs. AC A/V/W. That's the "fuel guage" of your battery bank.

If the WH ever becomes a concern it's easy enought to "foolproof" it. Of course, the breaker, but also by opening the exterior vent cover and either unplugging it from the outlet located there or flipping the on/off toggle switch located on the WH itself. It's something I would make part of your unhooking/hookup checklist.

The nuker is a no brainer. Don't turn it on. 😉 I'll say that even with my setup, my nuker is in my subpanel. I don't cook with it, but no harm reheating a  cuppa or a little 'sumpin sumpin' from the refer for a minute or two while on the road from point A to B. Just be aware that the DC draw is, with "overhead", ~125a. Or in practical terms, 2ah's/minute out of your battery bank. 

As a suggestion: Doing at least a labelled line drawing of the circuit your are modifying, folding it up and securing it in a conspicuous location within the PD panel wouldn't be a bad idea. It may come in handy for future reference, or at the least, if you ever sell... for the benefit of the next owner. If you enclose the relay within a project box.. inside would seem to make sense.

NOW.... let's talk battery meter/monitors!  LOL

[oldjohnt]

Yo Yarome, FWIW I'm in agreement with your analysis.

    I wouldn't hesitate to place a continuous 16 amp load on a 20 amp rated branch circuit and relay contacts, but NOT 18.5 as Tiger spoke of above. As I mentioned, the definition of and calculations of what is or isn't "Continuous Current" in the NEC can be complicated grrr.

 Yeppers, my best guess, as we have no idea of his fridge, is that a current draw of say 4 and even more is what Id expect BUT it looks like he's NOT going to use his Inverter to power it. If it were mine I'd just flip the auto switch OFF and Gas Only ON while on Inverter Power.

    I likewise have sufficient capacity to power my small Microwave using my Inverter and battery bank BUT I don't like to do it as it sucks sooooooooooooo much of my stored battery energy. 

    Looks like he decided to run and switch the WH and Converter on separate circuits, so I think he's good to go.

 A circuit diagram, Heck I remember ALL THE DETAILS (Yeah Right)  when I make a mod and I'm sure a future buyer can understand what Ive done LOL    Good idea !!!!!!!!! 

 Have a good one yall

John T

 

[Yarome]

16 hours ago, tigergriz said:

...but no big deal if I do run it inverted it's 2.5 amps or I use it's control panel and tell it to go to l.p....

Yeah. That was the remark I noted... hence the reminder that the reading was in AC amps... not DC, which is where the go-juice is actually coming from. 

It's a nice intermediary option though between fully manual or full auto. The converter is the greatest offender anyway so having that automated is sure a step up. It's easy enough to hit the LP button on the refer and kill the WH without having to get down on your hands and knees to flip breakers. THAT get's old real quick! 😉

He seems to be much more comfortable going that route so that's always a positive. The "trust factor" in his system will be much higher as well since he knows the nuts and bolts of it and is familiar with all the workings.

I hear ya. I might keep my nuker in my subpanel, but when you remember the 2ah/minute... and theres a slight cloud cover... sometimes lukewarm is good enough!

Hey now... don't laugh! I'm the original installer and don't think for a second I haven't had a few "moments" myself asking, "now what the heck does THAT go to?!?" It might be I've just inhaled too much blue smoke in my day, or an age thing, but I prefer to think of it in term of, "I'm SO good I can even stump myself!" 😁

[tigergriz]

5 hours ago, Yarome said:

Yeah. That was the remark I noted... hence the reminder that the reading was in AC amps... not DC, which is where the go-juice is actually coming from. 

It's a nice intermediary option though between fully manual or full auto. The converter is the greatest offender anyway so having that automated is sure a step up. It's easy enough to hit the LP button on the refer and kill the WH without having to get down on your hands and knees to flip breakers. THAT get's old real quick! 😉

He seems to be much more comfortable going that route so that's always a positive. The "trust factor" in his system will be much higher as well since he knows the nuts and bolts of it and is familiar with all the workings.

I hear ya. I might keep my nuker in my subpanel, but when you remember the 2ah/minute... and theres a slight cloud cover... sometimes lukewarm is good enough!

Hey now... don't laugh! I'm the original installer and don't think for a second I haven't had a few "moments" myself asking, "now what the heck does THAT go to?!?" It might be I've just inhaled too much blue smoke in my day, or an age thing, but I prefer to think of it in term of, "I'm SO good I can even stump myself!" 😁

You guys are awesome, crack me up too, yea I was going to call the fridge 5 amps as it seemed low to me but not an issue if I just tell it go to l.p. and I am the kind of guy that has to do a sketch to understand things I'm building so I already did a quick one, I will see if I can post a picture of it, but no laughing

ok my pics are too big even at 2 mb so that won't happen 20 amp relay coming this week dpdt I also have 2 Yamaha 2000I generators I can run in series kind of a pain but if I want A/C it's what I got I already ran the a/c with them they put out a continuous 3600 watts I have to drag them out of the basement to run them but it's worth it to me, we have a lot of zombies romming the streets at nite so I want to figure out a good way to combine mounting and locking them in my compartment I already changed the ch751 locks out for barrel locks but doors a flimsy I also have a bolt cutter proof lock and chain for when running outside I am designing mounts in my head to somehow go thru the handles and lock with like a steel plate, I have a welder so it will come to me, any thoughts/ tips on running my generators ?

thanks again guys for all the help

[Yarome]

58 minutes ago, tigergriz said:

I am designing mounts in my head to somehow go thru the handles and lock with like a steel plate, I have a welder so it will come to me, any thoughts/ tips on running my generators ?

I run dual Yamaha's myself. It depends on the size of your aircon, but a single will run my single 13.5k BTU. If your 2001 aircon is origin than it might be a bit more power hungry on startup and may not. There are things that can be done to the aircon units as well to mitigate compressor startup demands.

The cheapest being to add in a $10 "hard start" capacitor. Maybe 7 bones on eBay(?) Easy peasy and works a great majority of the time. (Note: SPP6... not the SPP6E with electronic controls). You would need to verify it will work in yours, but for that era of aircon it'll get the job done in 90%+ of the time.

There is also a product on the market that dynamically controls the aircon that not only allows it to start with much lower startup overhead, but also dynaically controls power consumption. There you're talking a few hunny, an extra control box and rewiring half your unit. The wiring harness it comes with simplifies things, but it's still a "job". If you don't use your aircon much... and you already got yourself dual genny's so... hardly worth the effort... let alone the price tag.

Those'll be another thread if it's something you want to pursue.

That being said... even though I "can" run it on a single 2k, I almost always run on parallel. It's much easier on the genny's and, actually, more fuel efficient running duals in eco mode than a single. Even on single it will stay in eco mode levels for the most part, but when she rev's up it get's loud and the fuel consumption rate increases (vs. duals). 

Security? These are what I have on mine. Even through they are branded "Honda", they fit. A bit "tight" up on the rubber fuel port gasket, but it works. You're perfectly correct. No matter the quality of lock/cable, the weak link is the 5 seconds it takes cutting through the handle with a hacksaw.

[Yarome]

5 hours ago, tigergriz said:

ok my pics are too big even at 2 mb so that won't happen....

Off topic, but another good guy on here (RV_) sent me a link via email just a couple of weeks ago and instructions of how to post photos here.

"To do it yourself just open your picture file folder to the picture you want to copy. Don’t open it just have the page with it ready. Then click on this link:

http://photoposting.is-great.net/?i=1

A screen pops up and all you do is click on the picture file unopened and then hold the click until you drag it over the box they say to drag and drop a photo! Then a link appears under it and you just copy and paste that to the post you are making."

Just to be aware... as I understand it... the photo is hosted on the imgurl.com servers and is public. There is probably a way to access them if you wan't to remove them at some point, but I have no idea how to do that.

Pretty darn slick though and no account setup is required.

[tigergriz]

Click For Full-Size Image.

thank you Yarome, I tried a few photos of my project, but it looks like maybe it just does 1 at a time? not sure, here ya go, if its 1 i will add more

[tigergriz]

[tigergriz]

can it hurt anything to try and start the A/C on 1 generator? like it should either work or not, right? or will it do damage?

[Yarome]

1 hour ago, tigergriz said:

but it looks like maybe it just does 1 at a time?

Dunno. Haven't actually tried it myself. 😉 I believe it will only upload one photo at a time and generate a single link, but I can't think of any reason you couldn't copy and paste multiple links into a single post.

56 minutes ago, tigergriz said:

...it should either work or not, right? or will it do damage?

Nope. Exactly. Yours has, as many do, overvoltage and over-temp protection. The genny will continue to run, but it will cut the output (note the red light on the panel). You might also find that it will run for awhile and "then" cut off on you. In that case, I would shut it down to give it a cooling off period before restarting in parallel with his buddy.

You don't wanna keep doing it over and over again, but no harm no foul to give'r a whirl.

[tigergriz]

awesome, thanks yarome, I will try 1 only when camping and see how she does, I am sure that if the A/C is on that will probably be all I can run, but worth a try, and thanks for the starter cap tip, If it fails to start I may try that as well.

[Yarome]

You really don't know until yer doin it. Running single I would shut off the converter, have everything else on 12v and wouldn't put much else on it. You might be able to do a couple light loads like charge your phone, watch a TV or such, but I generally just leave it alone.

You can certainly meter it to get "actual" and see how much beyond that you have to play with. In real life... my single is capable of around 16.5amps~ish and I get a shade over 27 when running in parallel (both are limited to continuous output only (3600watts).. not a full 4k).

With a 30amp rig, running duals isn't really all that different than running off shore power. Heavy loads are always singled and plan accordingly. Unlike shore power though... there are some factors that can affect your Yamaha's output. Elevation being the biggest. Expect output to start dropping a touch above 5000ft.

Even if yours will turn over with a single, and you have the inclination, running single or dual... the hard start cap is always a great option. Cheap, easy and makes life a lot more enjoyable for your genny. There are a couple internet write-ups on the mod, but it's literally "plug n play".

[jcussen]

https://www.microair.net/collections/easystart-soft-starters

Took me about 30 min to install. Box goes inside of air conditioner. Heard that a 13.5 btu air con will run off a eu2000 with no problem. I can run one ac on 15 amp circuit. I do shut off the inverter/charger first.

[oldjohnt]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 4:19 AM, tigergriz said:

can it hurt anything to try and start the A/C on 1 generator? like it should either work or not, right? or will it do damage?

Probably not, as mostly already posted my procedure would be Converter OFF,,,,,,,,,,,Fridge on GAS only NOT Auto,,,,,,,,,,,,,,All 120 VAC loads OFF,,,,,,,,,,,AC OFF,,,,,,,,,,Then start genny n let her warm up,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Then turn AC to Fan Only,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Then hold you breath and your mouth to the right a bit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Then turn AC to Low Cool                  %$#@@   let us know..............

John T