Fee Increase for National Parks to be scaled back

[bobsallyh]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2018/04/02/americans-tell-interior-to-take-a-hike-over-proposed-national-park-fee-increase/?utm_term=.a8febab956ac

[Mike2338]

We are loving our National Parks to death.

They need money to protect and preserve.

[Twotoes]

Glad I got the Lifetime Pass when it was free. 

[2gypsies]

Compare the cost to a day at Disney - $100 & up or an annual pass at Disney $1,000+.  I fail to understand why folks balk at an increase for national parks.

[TCW]

7 hours ago, 2gypsies said:

Compare the cost to a day at Disney - $100 & up or an annual pass at Disney $1,000+.  I fail to understand why folks balk at an increase for national parks.

In my opinion, one of the problems was how the fee increase was explained. In the article linked to in the OP and even in the Park Service announcement and call for comments, it is not made clear that the entrance fee is for multiple days (not sure if it is always 7, but it is for Yellowstone) and that the vehicle fee covers the whole boat load of adults. I also do not think it is well known that children under 16 are not charged an entrance fee. In my opinion, the actual cost would be much clearer if it was a per person per day fee for those that did not want to purchase a longer term pass.

[Kirk W]

11 hours ago, Twotoes said:

Glad I got the Lifetime Pass when it was free. 

I think that you probably paid $10, the same as I did in 2004 and my dad paid the same for his back in 1974. But I suspect that if you add inflation to the $10 Dad paid back when the program was new, the current $80 is still as great a bargain and if you use the pass then even $100 would still be a great bargain, without any entrance fee increase.

1 hour ago, TCW said:

it is not made clear that the entrance fee is for multiple days (not sure if it is always 7, but it is for Yellowstone) and that the vehicle fee covers the whole boat load of adults.

I believe that is true for all national park entrance fees as I just verified that it is for Yosemite, Grand Canyon, and Ranier parks. What I am wondering is why the length of time for all vehicles? If they were to give a 1 or 2-day option for half price or perhaps just cut the time the current fee is good for to only 2 or 3 days, what revenue impact would it make? What if the parks that have a $70 fee for 7 days were to also offer a 3 day pass for $35? I suspect that the increased pass cost stop mostly the 1 & 2 day visitors and have very little impact on the family that arrives to spend a week or close to a week in that one park. 

[bigjim]

I like Kirks thinking on lesser shorter term options for some and my thoughts are similar.  If you go for say 5-7 days the higher fee doesn't seem as bad.  Some are on a trip and only want to see it as they are nearer than they would normally be and may want to spend as few as a few hours to a day so the price would need to be much more reasonable at least to them in their mind.  Price understanding is very important. I know what a bargain it all is and some folks will be won over by their first taste-visit.

[WeBeFulltimers]

Mine was only $10 but would have gladly paid the $80 now charged.

[LindaH]

1 hour ago, Kirk Wood said:

I think that you probably paid $10, the same as I did in 2004 and my dad paid the same for his back in 1974.   

Unless it was the Access Pass, which is free (or was before the fee increase, but I believe it's still free?).

[TCW]

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Posted 5 hours ago

7 hours ago, Kirk Wood said:

I think that you probably paid $10, the same as I did in 2004 and my dad paid the same for his back in 1974.   

Unless it was the Access Pass, which is free (or was before the fee increase, but I believe it's still free?).

 

If my memory is correct, the Golden Age Passport which preceded the America the Beautiful Senior Pass was free when I worked for the Park Service in the early 1970s. Not sure if they ever charged for it or whether the $10.00 fee started with the change to the new America the Beautiful passes which I think was in the 1990s. 

[Twotoes]

No Kirk. I got mine for free. It’s the Golden Acorn Pass. I am disabled and qualify for a free lifetime pass. 

[bigjim]

Just my humble opinion but I think they shoud expire every 5 years and be renewable for a Dollar with proper ID.  The free ones should also renew but for free.  There are  passes out there being used by people that they don't belong to because they are seldom if ever checked against ID in even a cursory way.

 

Per at least 2 so far I was incorrect about them not being checked and I am glad to hear it.

[JimK]

Not true.  I have had my ID checked at almost every National Park.

[mptjelgin]

My wife and I have had volunteer passes for the past several years and I am asked for picture ID almost every time we've used them to enter National Parks. 

[Wheeldog]

I think the prices are already too high. The wife and I went on a camp out to Cottonwood Cove in Searchlight, NV with our motorcycle group. I rode my motorcycle and my wife followed in our pickup camper. If we didn't have a senior pass it would have cost us each $20.00 to get in the park. Once in the park they wanted $20 per night without the pass to camp. We stayed 2 nights. So it would have cost us $80.00 for 2 nights camping with no pass. The  spots are all dry camping. They do have flush toilets, no hot water or showers and water spigots through out the campgrounds.

The reality is we paid $20 total for the 2 nights (half price) and free admission with our pass.......I figured that was fair. BUT for $40 a night you can get a way better camp site than we had.....or a motel. For the most part the park was deserted......at least 95% empty.....just us geezers there.

They are going to screw around and price themselves out of business. 

[mptjelgin]

So you took two vehicles into the park, camped for two nights, and it cost you $20??  And you think that is a fair price...

Your comment goes to show how difficult this issue is. I think it absurd that $20 covers two nights camping with two vehicles, but that is just me. To sustain a park at those prices there will have to be additional income coming from somewhere else. So I guess that will be folks who don't have the senior pass, or ???

No wonder the parks have have a money issue. 

[bigjim]

Thanks for the current info on that JimK and mark&terry.

[Kirk W]

21 hours ago, LindaH said:

Unless it was the Access Pass, which is free (or was before the fee increase, but I believe it's still free?).

It still is free to those who have major disabilities. My daughter-in-law has one as she is blind.

10 hours ago, Wheeldog said:

I think the prices are already too high.

Someone must disagree with you at least for the parks that are swamped with visitors in season. Since the national parks do not have enough money to keep up with maintenance, what would you have them do? Just close the parks and lock the gates? I suppose that might save some money as we could then layoff all of the NPS employees! 

10 hours ago, Wheeldog said:

They are going to screw around and price themselves out of business. 

I really don't see much danger of that happening in my lifetime. 

[bigjim]

I liked the way they did the tiered buy in for the old $10. pass in that you could buy the new one for $20. for one year and then when you did that for four years you traded them in for the $80 permanent one.

I t remains to be seen on how smoothly that will go but it seemed to be pretty popular last year where I was volunteering.  In a number of cases  that made some feel better than coughing up $80. at once. In some cases it was kind of a rant calming effect and they decided to go ahead and get the $80. one but felt better that they had more than one option.

[Dutch_12078]

I think the NPS might do better overall along the lines of Kirk's suggestion, with say a $12/day fee, plus options for a $35 3-day pass and a $70 per week pass. The longer term folks would benefit from the day rate savings, and the day stay folks wouldn't be paying for time they can't use. In the long run, I think they'd take in more money that way, albeit with a slightly higher administrative cost. With a fee structure like that, I think they might attract the potential visitors that otherwise shy away from paying for 7 days for a 1 day visit.

[LindaH]

18 hours ago, TCW said:

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If my memory is correct, the Golden Age Passport which preceded the America the Beautiful Senior Pass was free when I worked for the Park Service in the early 1970s. Not sure if they ever charged for it or whether the $10.00 fee started with the change to the new America the Beautiful passes which I think was in the 1990s. 

I don't know what the Golden Age Passport cost back in the '70's...it might have been free.  However, when DH got his Golden Age Passport in 2001, it cost $10.  When I got my Senior Pass in 2008, I also paid $10.

The Interagency Pass Program (America the Beautiful) was created by the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act and authorized by Congress in December 2004.  Apparently, according to a blurb in Wikipedia, the Golden Age Passport was sold until January 1, 2007.

[2gypsies]

This  was just in the local news:  The Grand Canyon park water supply comes from a Roaring Spring below the Rim and has 12.5 miles of pipeline built in 1960 with twists and turns around trails and through rocky terrain which frequently breaks and leaks. Each repair costs an average of $25,000.  They are now looking to get the water farther downstream at Bright Angel Creek before it enters the Colorado River.  A helicopter flew in equipment last week to drill test and a drill rig was assembled. If positive the new additional 5 miles of piping project will cost $300,000 and will help the problem area that gets the most repair to ensure a consistent water supply for 6 million people who visit each year.

A recent series of breaks forced restaurants to switch to disposable dishes and utensils. Laundries, showers and RV dump stations were not available.

The national park infrastructure is old.  Millions of people want to use these parks and expect to have modern conveniences. Entrance fees stay in the parks for needed maintenance.  This is a very small amount for a water fix and is just a small part of constant upkeep to keep the parks for YOU.  The needed money for day-to-day operation doesn't all come from the General Fund. It comes from entrance fees. 

[2gypsies]

I really don't believe 'potential' visitors don't come because of entrance fees.  If they're planning on driving long distances to see these parks they are putting a big chunk of money into their vacations with fuel, food, an air flight and accommodations and the entrance fee is a very small portion of it.  They can surely cut back during the year to save up for the reasonable entrance fee.  They can eliminate going to the movies, fast food places with the family, amusement parks, a carton of cigarettes, a bottle of booze and they can then come up with $100 for an entrance fee.

[Dutch_12078]

I don't think there's any question that the parks have ongoing and increasing maintenance costs, without even considering any needed capital improvements. I think the bigger question is how much of a fee increase can be implemented before the number of potential visitors that wont or can't pay it makes it a losing proposition. Reducing the number of visitors will reduce some maintenance costs of course, but items like the mentioned water supply issue will still be there. And reducing the number of visitors by making the parks unaffordable to those on tight budgets goes against the very purpose of the park service. Not everyone spends big bucks on a vacation trip to see these great wonders. I've seen more than a few families come into the parks in older cars and vans that have traveled for several days, sleeping in their cars, minimal travel trailers, or tents, just to get there for a once in a life time experience. Do we really want our parks priced out of reach of those folks? I think there are better ways to raise the needed money than a single large flat fee increase. 

[bigjim]

4 minutes ago, Dutch_12078 said:

Do we really want our parks priced out of reach of those folks? I think there are better ways to raise the needed money than a single large flat fee increase. 

Extremely valid point.   In the Forest Svc and some other agencies they have several free days per year at paid areas for accessing the site.  National trails day is usually one of the free days but it is not always convient for many but at least it is something if they could be made aware of it. I think some other agencies do the same but I'm not sure.