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Up and Down Vibration at Speed


Chad Heiser

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OK, I have an issue I have been troubleshooting but haven't been able to solve.  It has been a minor annoying issue for some time, but it was a low priority item because I had other things to spend money on for the truck.  Now everything else is done and this has hit the top of my list.  When traveling around 60 mph, the truck starts to vibrate up and down slightly.  It is almost like it is driving over a washboard road.  The steering wheel is dead straight with no warble or movement and nothing is going side to side, it is all up and down movement.  It isn't horrible, but it is irritating.  At lower and higher speeds, it is not there (at least I don't notice it until about 60 MPH).  It can really get annoying when running down a highway with expansion joints that are spaced just right because they exaggerate the up and down movement.  Of course right around 60 mph (usually 62) is where I like to cruise on the highway, so that really doesn't help.

What I have done so far in the trouble shooting and other mechanical fixes that could possibly be related (in no particular order):

-Replaced broken engine mounts (when I first bought the truck)
-Replaced the universal joint at the rear of the drive line (due to wear early in ownership of the truck)
-Balanced the drive shaft
-Replaced the carrier bearing (twice - once when I first got the truck due to wear and once relatively recently as a potential cure for this problem)
-Had ride height and drive line angles checked for correct specifications (several times)
-Balanced and trued the front tires
-Balanced the rear tires.  (I wanted to true them as well, but the shop I had the rears balanced at didn't have the equipment to true them.  I did it on the way home from a trip last fall.)
-At my recent annual maintenance service, the shop foreman spent several hours playing with my truck to try and diagnose the issue.  He played with shims in the drive line (removing, adding, etc) to see if something was out of whack.  Nothing changed, no matter how things were shimmed.  (Luckily for me, he did this on his own time and didn't charge me for it.  He knows I have been complaining about this for a while and he was as curious as I was as to the cause based on the other work we have done.)

Based on what has been done, my shop is just as perplexed as I am as to what the cause might be.  They gave me the name and number of a drive line and frame shop that they use to repair wrecked trucks as the next step.  They thought this shop might have some specialized knowledge/equipment that might help diagnose the problem.  I haven't called them yet, but will eventually.

As far as I know, my truck has never been involved in a collision and the frame is in good shape.  When I bought the truck, I was so happy to have my HDT and I was concentrating on getting it built out to my specifications that I don't really remember whether this vibration was there or not.  If it was, it wasn't bad enough to annoy me.  But like I said, I had other things that were higher priority to repair/replace on the truck so I may just have not paid attention to it.  I can't say it has gotten any worse in recent history, but since all my other little things have been dealt with on the truck this one is now front and center on my list (and actually my only remaining annoyance).  Other than this, I have no real complaints about the truck.  I do have two other things on my list to fix eventually, but they are minor issues.  One is there is a very minor (as in one drop every few days) oil leak at the back of the motor where the transmission attaches.  This is more of an annoyance than a mechanical issue.  It is so minor that my mechanic and I both agree it isn't worth addressing until I need to get into the transmission for a clutch or similar replacement.  If the leak ever gets any worse, then it may move to a higher priority item, but it has been holding the same since the day I brought the truck home.  The other is, one of the seals on my windshield fairing/visor/air foil/whatever it is called is leaking when it rains.  I have all new seals for this sitting in my shop.  I just need to get some time to replace them.

I thought I would ask here and see if any of you have any suggestions as to where to look or what the cause might be.  I await your suggestions.

2000 Kenworth T2000 w/ Cummins N14 and autoshift
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Chad,

Are your wheels centered on the hubs?  I had an annoying vibration at 50-55.  Centered the studs in the wheel stud holes and put three wheel centering lug nuts per steer tire and it disappeared.  Might take a look because even slightly off center wheel will travel in a slight elliptical pattern instead of round.

Here is a description.

http://www.stengelbros.net/Wheel-Centering-Products_c_415.html

2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift

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Just now, SuiteSuccess said:

Chad,

Are your hubs centered on the wheels?  I had an annoying vibration at 50-55.  Centered the studs in the hub stud holes and put three hub centering lug nuts per steer tire and it disappeared.  Might take a look because even slightly off center hub will travel in a slight elliptical pattern instead of round.

I had not thought of that.  I will put it on the list to check.  Thanks.

2000 Kenworth T2000 w/ Cummins N14 and autoshift
2017 DRV Mobile Suite 40KSSB4 with factory mods, dealer mods and personal mods - now in the RV graveyard
2022 DRV Full House MX450 with customized floor plan
2018 Polaris RZR Turbo S (fits in the garage)
2016 Smart Car (fits in the garage or gets flat towed behind the DRV when the RZR is in the garage)
My First Solar Install Thread
My Second Solar Install Thread & Photos and Documents Related to the build
My MX450's solar, battery and inverter system - my biggest system yet!

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What's been done on the front end?  King pins?  Lube the front end - ball joints, all the steering gear- and see if the vibration is better or same.  

Add all the rotational force on the front end from tires, rims, brake drums, parts and pieces.  Have you used the centering pins?  

https://www.tru-bal.com/

If it's not in the steering, then it's in the driveline.  The driveline tolerances that might be good enough for the company driver, may have stacked enough to make you notice ie- create your vibration.  .002 here, .004 there, and sooner or later you have .25 out of tolerance.

 

 

Carl beat me to the pins....

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BART- 1998 Volvo 610

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I don't know if it applies to an HDT.... I wouldn't think so, but that can sometimes occur if you don't have enough of your pin weight transferred forward of center balance.

My suspicion... there is a phenomenon/condition where the treads and different rotation speeds of your TV tires and your trailers can create resonance between each other at a particular speed and create pretty much exactly what it sounds like you're talking about. It can also be confined to or exaggerated by different types of road surfaces. Ie., it doesn't happen or gets worse on concrete... or... it kicks in at different speeds. Unfortunately... the only way I'm aware of to test and/or correct that is to try a different tread pattern and/or speed rating on one or the other.

I would say... stay under 60 or bump it up to 64~ish and see what happens. :o

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2 minutes ago, Chad Heiser said:

I had not thought of that.  I will put it on the list to check.  Thanks.

Chad,

 Meant wheels not hubs, see edit above.

2006 Volvo 780 "Hoss" Volvo D12, 465hp, 1650 ft/lbs tq., ultrashift

Bed Build by "JW Morgan's Custom Welding"

2017 DRV 39DBRS3

2013 Smart Passion Coupe "Itty Bitty"

 

"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first!"

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What's been done on the front end?  King pins?  Lube the front end - ball joints, all the steering gear- and see if the vibration is better or same.  

Add all the rotational force on the front end from tires, rims, brake drums, parts and pieces.  Have you used the centering pins?  

https://www.tru-bal.com/

If it's not in the steering, then it's in the driveline.  The driveline tolerances that might be good enough for the company driver, may have stacked enough to make you notice ie- create your vibration.  .002 here, .004 there, and sooner or later you have .25 out of tolerance.

 

 

Carl beat me to the pins....

The front end has been gone through.  I've talked to my shop about new new king pins, but they keep telling me my king pins are fine and don't need replacing.  The tie rod ends have been replaced though (I forgot that in my original list.)  I have also replaced the steering box, but that was because it started leaking like crazy a couple of years ago. 

The vibration isn't coming from the front end.  It is more center to rear of the truck (at least that is how it feels).  It happens whether the trailer is in tow or not.  When the shop foreman was testing stuff, it was all bobtail and he still got the vibration.  He said he could also feel it starting at around 30 mph and then disappear and come back at 60 mph.  I don't really notice it at 30, but there is something at that speed (or multiples of that speed) that is causing a vibration.  I tend to think it is in the drive line somewhere, but I really don't know where.

2000 Kenworth T2000 w/ Cummins N14 and autoshift
2017 DRV Mobile Suite 40KSSB4 with factory mods, dealer mods and personal mods - now in the RV graveyard
2022 DRV Full House MX450 with customized floor plan
2018 Polaris RZR Turbo S (fits in the garage)
2016 Smart Car (fits in the garage or gets flat towed behind the DRV when the RZR is in the garage)
My First Solar Install Thread
My Second Solar Install Thread & Photos and Documents Related to the build
My MX450's solar, battery and inverter system - my biggest system yet!

chadheiser.com      West Coast HDT Rally Website

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15 minutes ago, Yarome said:

I don't know if it applies to an HDT.... I wouldn't think so, but that can sometimes occur if you don't have enough of your pin weight transferred forward of center balance.

My suspicion... there is a phenomenon/condition where the treads and different rotation speeds of your TV tires and your trailers can create resonance between each other at a particular speed and create pretty much exactly what it sounds like you're talking about. It can also be confined to or exaggerated by different types of road surfaces. Ie., it doesn't happen or gets worse on concrete... or... it kicks in at different speeds. Unfortunately... the only way I'm aware of to test and/or correct that is to try a different tread pattern and/or speed rating on one or the other.

I would say... stay under 60 or bump it up to 64~ish and see what happens. :o

I haven't completely ruled out my rear tires, but it isn't annoying enough to try to fix it by spending the money to replace them (at least not yet ;)).  It isn't related to the trailer pin weight though.  I get the issue whether the trailer is attached or not.

 

2000 Kenworth T2000 w/ Cummins N14 and autoshift
2017 DRV Mobile Suite 40KSSB4 with factory mods, dealer mods and personal mods - now in the RV graveyard
2022 DRV Full House MX450 with customized floor plan
2018 Polaris RZR Turbo S (fits in the garage)
2016 Smart Car (fits in the garage or gets flat towed behind the DRV when the RZR is in the garage)
My First Solar Install Thread
My Second Solar Install Thread & Photos and Documents Related to the build
My MX450's solar, battery and inverter system - my biggest system yet!

chadheiser.com      West Coast HDT Rally Website

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9 minutes ago, Chad Heiser said:

I get the issue whether the trailer is attached or not.

Definitely not a resonance issue then. Might still be an uneven wear issue, but I know just enuff 'bout how HDT's roll to be dangerous. :P

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When I bought my truck, it had a vibration at around 50-55 and it was pretty noticeable at times. It wasn't a speed I drove around a lot, so thankfully it didn't bother me as much. It seemed when towing I didn't feel it as bad. I recently got all new tires, new front rims, new king pins and new bearings in the front. I'm not sure where it was exactly but one of those items fixed it because it's completely gone now. Yeah. 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.com or Two Wheel Ramblin

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Has the rear end been aligned to the front?

Rear wheel bearings/seals?

Silly one.....are your U-joints on your drive shaft in the correct orientation?

Rear tire pressure?

Rear shocks?

Rear rims checked?

Rear suspension spring bushings?

What method do you use to "balance" your tires...?  Beads, Shot, weights, other?

 

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Chad,

I had a similar problem with a 03 International MDT that got fixed by truing the steer tires and balancing them ON THE TRUCK.  Not many places offer on the truck balancing but might be worth a try.  You get the rim, tire AND the hub balanced that way.  OR you could try balancing beads and see if anything changes.

I ended up putting Centramatics on all four corners and never had a problem after.

Lenp

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2 hours ago, BlueLghtning said:

When I bought my truck, it had a vibration at around 50-55 and it was pretty noticeable at times. It wasn't a speed I drove around a lot, so thankfully it didn't bother me as much. It seemed when towing I didn't feel it as bad. I recently got all new tires, new front rims, new king pins and new bearings in the front. I'm not sure where it was exactly but one of those items fixed it because it's completely gone now. Yeah. 

My tires are not quite 5 years old, so I’m not too keen on replacing them just yet.  Neither I nor my shop think the vibration is coming from the front end.  It could be the rear end though.

2 hours ago, DesertMiner said:

Has the rear end been aligned to the front?

Rear wheel bearings/seals?

Silly one.....are your U-joints on your drive shaft in the correct orientation?

Rear tire pressure?

Rear shocks?

Rear rims checked?

Rear suspension spring bushings?

What method do you use to "balance" your tires...?  Beads, Shot, weights, other?

 

My rear axle is an aftermarket set up not original to the T2000.  I can only assume it was installed when the truck was singled by whoever did that work before I got it.  The rear end was way out of alignment when I bought it.  Whoever installed it didn’t do a very good job of getting it straight.  I don’t know how long it was run that way before I got it.  I had that brought back into alignment, but it hasn’t been checked again in about 5 years.

My two inner wheels are steel and were new with the tires.  The outer wheels are aluminum and were on the truck when it was purchased.  They have never been checked.

I assume the U-joints are in the correct alignment as the drive shaft has been out for balancing and I trust my shop and the work they do.  The problem did not start or get worse when the shaft was re-installed and one of the universal ends was replaced because of an issue (which escapes me right now) at that time.

I religiously check all my tire pressures and run them according to my weights per a weight chart.

The shocks all the way around, along with the airbags were replaced as a preventative measure when I purchased the truck.  They have low miles and light use on them since then.

One of my rear seals started to leak a couple of years ago and was replaced.  The other has given me no issues.

Nothing with the rear suspension looks out of wack under inspection.

.The tires were all balanced with weights.

1 hour ago, lenp said:

Chad,

I had a similar problem with a 03 International MDT that got fixed by truing the steer tires and balancing them ON THE TRUCK.  Not many places offer on the truck balancing but might be worth a try.  You get the rim, tire AND the hub balanced that way.  OR you could try balancing beads and see if anything changes.

I ended up putting Centramatics on all four corners and never had a problem after.

Lenp

I am thinking about trying centramatics on my truck as well to see if it helps (although I know this will only hide instead of cure the problem if it makes the vibration go away).

 

2 hours ago, noteven said:

Chad - try removing one outside rear wheel and re-orienting it 90deg to it’s dual mate one wheel at a time...

I can give this a shot, but my inner wheels are steel and the outer ones are aluminum so I won’t be leaving them that way for the long term.

 

2 hours ago, Steve from SoCal said:

Has anyone looked at the transmission yoke and tailshaft for wear?

Steve

This is what I was hoping to have the drive line shop look at when I get some time to take it to them.

 

2 hours ago, beemergary said:

I'd put it up on blocks and run it. Look and feel for vibrations. Out of round tire-wheels-"driveshaft" etc.

This also would be something I’d like to have the drive line shop do.

Thanks for the suggestions.  Keep them coming if you can think of anything else.  Some of these things I had thought of as well, but not all of them.  I am a much better electrician and builder than I am a mechanic so I appreciate the help.

2000 Kenworth T2000 w/ Cummins N14 and autoshift
2017 DRV Mobile Suite 40KSSB4 with factory mods, dealer mods and personal mods - now in the RV graveyard
2022 DRV Full House MX450 with customized floor plan
2018 Polaris RZR Turbo S (fits in the garage)
2016 Smart Car (fits in the garage or gets flat towed behind the DRV when the RZR is in the garage)
My First Solar Install Thread
My Second Solar Install Thread & Photos and Documents Related to the build
My MX450's solar, battery and inverter system - my biggest system yet!

chadheiser.com      West Coast HDT Rally Website

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Chad,

No one will understand this but on my Volvo it had a vibration about 6o up to about 70 then went away, it would shake the shifter, and the bobble head mounted on the dash, I had everything done here is the list, new tires all around, had front end rebuilt completely including new springs, had the rear end done, air bags, tongue leaf, all bushings, pan hard bar, complete alignment, everything replaced except rear end housing, you get the picture, then driveline, all new joints, carrier bearing. No change yet, then the centering lug nuts, close but no change.

When I was coming back from Texas after getting my bed where I could carry the smart car I stopped in OKC at Speedco had the transmission and differential serviced with synthetic fluids. Left there and continued home to Wichita, Ks and the vibration was and still is gone.

I took a 3 month trip starting last December and drove about 7,500 miles vibration free, When I was in Biloxi Jim and Alie was at the same RV park, I was telling Jim this and we did take my truck to dinner one night, I don't know if he remembers this but who would have thought that just servicing the boxes would cure my problems.

Roger

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Mine was front shocks.  I'm still on my first cup of coffee.   This sounds ridiculous compared to the solutions above from those with much more experience.  Maybe you did shocks with all the other work already.

Kevin and June

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Just for the heck of it, if it were me I would play with the air ride height settings.  I would lower it a couple inches then bobtail it down the road.  If vibration is still there raise it a couple of inches and run it.  See if it changes anything.  
In all my years of working on these things, most of the time I had a vibration that would start at around 50 to 60 MPH and go away it would most likely be a wheel/tire balance issue.
I like notevens suggestion to rotate the outside tires, I would try 180 deg just for the heck of it.  Just make sure you can get to the inside valve stem.

"It is better to have more truck than you need than to need more truck than you have"

2001 Volvo 660, Cummins 400 ISX, Eaton 3 Peddle Auto Shift    
2014 Fuzion 40' Toyhauler
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4 hours ago, Hewhoknowslittle said:

Chad,

No one will understand this but on my Volvo it had a vibration about 6o up to about 70 then went away, it would shake the shifter, and the bobble head mounted on the dash, I had everything done here is the list, new tires all around, had front end rebuilt completely including new springs, had the rear end done, air bags, tongue leaf, all bushings, pan hard bar, complete alignment, everything replaced except rear end housing, you get the picture, then driveline, all new joints, carrier bearing. No change yet, then the centering lug nuts, close but no change.

When I was coming back from Texas after getting my bed where I could carry the smart car I stopped in OKC at Speedco had the transmission and differential serviced with synthetic fluids. Left there and continued home to Wichita, Ks and the vibration was and still is gone.

I took a 3 month trip starting last December and drove about 7,500 miles vibration free, When I was in Biloxi Jim and Alie was at the same RV park, I was telling Jim this and we did take my truck to dinner one night, I don't know if he remembers this but who would have thought that just servicing the boxes would cure my problems.

Roger

I will have to go through and check when I last serviced the transmission.  I can't remember off the top of my head.

 

4 hours ago, Sculptor said:

Mine was front shocks.  I'm still on my first cup of coffee.   This sounds ridiculous compared to the solutions above from those with much more experience.  Maybe you did shocks with all the other work already.

Shocks have been replaced already.

 

1 hour ago, noteven said:

Hi Chad - I should have explained better - remove outside wheels and reinstall them at 90deg to where they were. One at a time. 

I get it now.  Thanks.

 

43 minutes ago, dennisvr said:

Just for the heck of it, if it were me I would play with the air ride height settings.  I would lower it a couple inches then bobtail it down the road.  If vibration is still there raise it a couple of inches and run it.  See if it changes anything.  
In all my years of working on these things, most of the time I had a vibration that would start at around 50 to 60 MPH and go away it would most likely be a wheel/tire balance issue.
I like notevens suggestion to rotate the outside tires, I would try 180 deg just for the heck of it.  Just make sure you can get to the inside valve stem.

I'm still not convinced it isn't my rear wheels.  I have some experimenting to do there.  My ride height is pretty easy to adjust with the two piece bar I have between the axle and the valve.  I can play with this some as well.

2000 Kenworth T2000 w/ Cummins N14 and autoshift
2017 DRV Mobile Suite 40KSSB4 with factory mods, dealer mods and personal mods - now in the RV graveyard
2022 DRV Full House MX450 with customized floor plan
2018 Polaris RZR Turbo S (fits in the garage)
2016 Smart Car (fits in the garage or gets flat towed behind the DRV when the RZR is in the garage)
My First Solar Install Thread
My Second Solar Install Thread & Photos and Documents Related to the build
My MX450's solar, battery and inverter system - my biggest system yet!

chadheiser.com      West Coast HDT Rally Website

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11 hours ago, Chad Heiser said:

I religiously check all my tire pressures and run them according to my weights per a weight chart.

Have you tried changing pressures to determine if it changes?  Forget the chart, lower or raise pressures to cause a change.  Will it get worse or better?  That, at least, may steer your troubleshooting in a certain direction.

Marcel

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Is your truck lug or hub centric? they require different balancing methods but your shop should know this. If they are hub centric ( spelling I know) you could run one tire at a time to test for a bad tire. I had one on a dually pickup and never found it until it threw a piece of tread, I don't remember how many times we had it on the balancer. I also have one on my flatbed trailer(mobile home rims) it sets up a resonance between 40  and 45 and is very annoying. You can see the tire has a wobble so I cant explain why it goes away over 45. 

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5 minutes ago, rpsinc said:

Have you tried changing pressures to determine if it changes?  Forget the chart, lower or raise pressures to cause a change.  Will it get worse or better?  That, at least, may steer your troubleshooting in a certain direction.

I have run at different pressures in the past and I don't remember how that affect the vibration (it has been a while).  This will be an easy thing to try out.  Thanks.

2000 Kenworth T2000 w/ Cummins N14 and autoshift
2017 DRV Mobile Suite 40KSSB4 with factory mods, dealer mods and personal mods - now in the RV graveyard
2022 DRV Full House MX450 with customized floor plan
2018 Polaris RZR Turbo S (fits in the garage)
2016 Smart Car (fits in the garage or gets flat towed behind the DRV when the RZR is in the garage)
My First Solar Install Thread
My Second Solar Install Thread & Photos and Documents Related to the build
My MX450's solar, battery and inverter system - my biggest system yet!

chadheiser.com      West Coast HDT Rally Website

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4 minutes ago, Lance A Lott said:

Is your truck lug or hub centric? they require different balancing methods but your shop should know this. If they are hub centric ( spelling I know) you could run one tire at a time to test for a bad tire. I had one on a dually pickup and never found it until it threw a piece of tread, I don't remember how many times we had it on the balancer. I also have one on my flatbed trailer(mobile home rims) it sets up a resonance between 40  and 45 and is very annoying. You can see the tire has a wobble so I cant explain why it goes away over 45. 

I'm pretty sure mine are lug centric, but I'm not positive on that.  I will have to check.

2000 Kenworth T2000 w/ Cummins N14 and autoshift
2017 DRV Mobile Suite 40KSSB4 with factory mods, dealer mods and personal mods - now in the RV graveyard
2022 DRV Full House MX450 with customized floor plan
2018 Polaris RZR Turbo S (fits in the garage)
2016 Smart Car (fits in the garage or gets flat towed behind the DRV when the RZR is in the garage)
My First Solar Install Thread
My Second Solar Install Thread & Photos and Documents Related to the build
My MX450's solar, battery and inverter system - my biggest system yet!

chadheiser.com      West Coast HDT Rally Website

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