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FL-JOE

School Shootings - The New Generation

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I hope by posting some ideas about this topic we can stay away from verbal attacks reference the 2nd amendment, bands on certain rifles, magazine capacities, etc.  The latest, and biggest ever, high school shooting down here in Florida was carried out by a 19 year old kid with issues, or at least that is what I am seeing on news reports.

It made me start thinking "what has changed since I was 19 years old?"  

I was working for my Uncle 9,400 miles away when I turned 19 years old.  I carried a black plastic rifle that was fully automatic and semi-automatic.  It was a military assault rifle given to me for one purpose and one purpose only.  I have had different rifles over the years for hunting.  In my mind that would be the only purpose for owning a legal semi automatic, a single shot, a lever action, or a bolt action rifle.    

I returned to civilian life and spent 34 years in law enforcement.  Much of that time was spent as an investigator/detective.  Of all my most gruesome, bloody, cruel, unforgettable cases only about 5% of them involved any type of firearm.  People do very cruel things to other people, like slit their x-wives throat in front of their children, or throw a tiny crying sick baby across the room in a fit of rage......you get the idea.  There are wolves and there are sheep, and our culture has always had some pretty mean wolves.  But I have to ask myself, why is this young generation doing some of the stuff they are doing?

I have 13 grandkids, 11 of which are grandsons.  Some of my grandsons have been allowed to play very real violent video games from a very young age.  I'm talking war games where you are sneaking through a building or a jungle slitting throats, shooting people in the head, blowing things up.  Then there is FB and all the exposure that goes along with that.   My point is this young millennial generation has been exposed to so much unsupervised violence and other things that it has effected some of them.  If you consider that with the tendency of many parents never to say "no" to their children while raising them, you end up with seriously troubled 19 years old wolves that can violently take many lives.

The easy answer is just to get in front of a reporter and start blabbing about getting rid of all the guns.   The thing everyone should remember is that when most of us were younger we could walk into most dime stores and buy a rifle when we were 15 or 16 years old.  I remember buying boxes of .22 ammo when I was 14 years old from the small neighborhood grocery store so we could go shoot rabbits and such.   None of my generation got upset and walked into school and started shooting innocent kids.   

It is time for my children to re-evaluate how they have raised their kids.  Stepping off my soap box now.

 

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I was 11 or 12 and attending school in a one room school house in the early 50's. Several of us boys that owned rifles, mostly 22's, were asked to bring them to school so we could use them to eradicate a population of copper heads in the creek behind the schoolhouse. The school district even supplied the ammunition. Later on in high school, we had a rifle club that met regularly after school for practice. No one thought anything of our rifles being carried on the buses or stored in our lockers during the day. As I recall, the only requirement was that they be unloaded to avoid accidents. It's a whole different world now...

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Same time frame as Dutch.  My parents had guns in the house...loaded guns.  Us kids were told not to touch them.  So we didn't.  Not ever, unless Mom or Dad were there to instruct.  As we got older, we had our own guns.  Then after moving out into the real world we purchased more.  None of us fear guns, we know what they are and how they work. 

And.....none of us have ever used a gun in an illegal way.  We respect their power, enjoy shooting and enjoy their history. 

And....none of our guns have ever done anything by themselves. 

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I don't think it's a gun ownership issue at all.  It's a cultural issue.  We live in a culture of violence.  Already mentioned are virtual reality violent games, but also graphically violent movies, books, and half the top rated TV shows are NCIS somewhere or another.  There's also the violent competition between adults in the home.

Couple all that violence with a new type of raising children which fails to teach them how to deal with disappointment, failure, or coming in second place.  Add to that the caustic rhetoric used by our leaders, idols, and pseudo heroes of sports and glamour.

Until we stop making everything a political issue and start basing our decisions on what is moral and intelligent, and until we start taking on some personal responsibility, we will continue to produce the freakish and outlandish in society.  The "me, me, me" needs to once again become the "we" of family, neighbors, and countrymen.

 

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40 minutes ago, dirtyboots said:

 

And....none of our guns have ever done anything by themselves. 

And that is exactly why we should not worry about North Korea having nuclear arms and the method to deliver them to the USA, as nuclear weapons dont kill, people do.

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All the road runner cartoons never made me think violence was OK. I think it's the reality of today's animations that blur the fantasy part of the message.

Linda Sand

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The biggest issue I see is care for the mentally ill and making sure they have no access to firearms.  For centuries, the mentally ill have been shunned by society and no one wants to do a thing to help.  With all the pressures on people today, those that are marginal on mental issues are pushed over the top.

Another issue is people are not being taught tolerance and respect for others.

Ken

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I think the biggest problem in both our child rearing and shaping their view of the world,  is the current trend of dividing into "us" and "them." That was looked on askance when I was a kid. If anyone came to my house or I theirs never would one dare to accuse another of being a "them" if they did not go along to get along. As always some teach children by their own example that there is no middle ground. That "others" are to be feared or bullied into conforming, even when you feel it is wrong, into a right or left that calls any fact they don't like fake news, especially when it is not fake. There are those who are lost to truth. The example of go along to get along, regardless of the injury to our freedoms as a country, or to countrymen that look or think differently, is a great part of the problem. 

Truth is not politics. Politics will not bring one child back from the latest travesty. Pogo, a character from a brilliant mind, espousing rationality through humor, said that "I have seen the enemy, and it is us."

When we teach our children by example to band together against other Americans from fear, to invent a lower than them class, so they can feel superior is not the American way I was taught. I was taught we make it together, and to never put ourselves above or below the rest in America. 

If we participate in the glee of hurting others online or off with glee, just because we can, that is not missed by our peers or our children.

The current anti science trends online and espoused in person are funny, because science and math produced the devices that these antagonists and self declared victims, use to type their fears and hatreds and ignorance of science online , that science is OK?

But the one thing we must do as a nation is decide if truth and facts are situational, changeable with the situation, or self-evident, as our founders believed, and for which they risked or gave all. To prove otherwise requires the very knowledge those with situational ethics eschew. Truth does not become a lie whenever it is uncomfortable, and the discomforted claim foul if their untruths are exposed. Honor is not optional. We may fail and have to make amends and get back on track many times in life to be honorable.

I find any parent, adult, or child, that bullies another or instills fear in them by convincing them that "some" Americans are "others" not "us," and are intentionally evil, willfully ignorant, or too fearful to change are at root cause. To somehow declare that fellow Americans are enemies, to be beaten in any way they can, be that dirty fighting or calling truth lies, is on that slippery slope of history. Each foot we slip down from our honor and ideals, becomes easier to slide all the way down the degrees are just degrees on the way to putting those fears into action with fists, knives, bullets and vehicles. Know your history or you are doomed to repeat it. We got rid of Senator Joseph McCarthy's brand of hate and scapegoating once and many times not so evident. Tolerance is slipping away and gone in some. The old know your history? This all has been done before. For many of the 18 years or so I have been posting here the following has been in my sig block.

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

Labeling as "us" and "them" always results in dehumanizing the feared group. You can't send a child of 18 to war to kill if you tell them that they are going to kill others with wives and kids they love dearly too, and only want them to have a better life than they had.

No, first we have to dehumanize them. Make them monsters, criminals, out to rape our sisters and wives and strangle our children to varying degrees. Those are not human and we can kill them.

Show our children that labeling by example, and teach that there are "others" among "us" and not just free Americans at liberty to pursue life, liberty, and happiness, will result in our children becoming just like us. Some would have us believe a bird with a damaged wing can fly, or that it can eat without a beak, or find food and comfort without brains or thought. We know that right?

Here is my prose about what I believe is the American way, working together, letting nothing convince us that flying is to be found in the basest mud.

"We have chosen a Raptor, the Bald Eagle as our national symbol. The Eagle has two wings. Watch them in the wild and imagine if one of their wings were completely overcome by the other. Their balance would be lost and they would fall. The Eagle soars with two wings working together. But the main body is supported by those two wings, and the eyes and brains are not in either wing. The current polarization in our country has many body parts rooting for one wing over the other. Think of the military as the beak and talons of our national symbol, the politicians as the wings, the brains and body are the civilians. If any one part works alone, or damages even one part, we fall from the heights, starve, or become prey. It is the civilian Americans, the brains and body of America, who have the power to keep our bird aloft, and proud.

The rest need to just do their job."

© Derek Gore/RV Roadie 2004 All Rights Reserved.  Three rights is left.

 

Edited by RV_

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I was composing when you posted but I agree TX Iceman, Linda, and pjstough, brilliant!

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40 minutes ago, TXiceman said:

The biggest issue I see is care for the mentally ill and making sure they have no access to firearms.  For centuries, the mentally ill have been shunned by society and no one wants to do a thing to help.  With all the pressures on people today, those that are marginal on mental issues are pushed over the top.

Another issue is people are not being taught tolerance and respect for others.

Ken

If I understand correctly, people who have been ruled mentally ill by a court are not eligible to buy a firearm.  Several years back, this country went to an instant background check.  This system relies on the States reporting those who are convicted felons and who have been adjudicated as mentally ill to be reported to this database. 

The problem with labeling people who have sought mental healthcare or those who exhibit some type of anti social behavior as mentally ill is that it bypasses due process and cheapens the designation.  I don't know if this latest shooter is mentally ill or not, but it's pretty obvious that many others were concerned enough about his behavior to report him multiple times.  There was/is a system in place to deal with this situation.  The system failed.

As far as this statement "For centuries, the mentally ill have been shunned by society and no one wants to do a thing to help", I disagree.  I think there are many who want to do something to help.  It's not a simple matter of will.  It's complicated.  The fact is that the vast majority of mentally ill people are not dangerous and may well be better off in open society than being institutionalized.

I agree with your last statement, there seems to be little tolerance of people who disagree with ourselves.  That's what I referred to in my earlier post as the "caustic rhetoric".  We seem to want to demonize anyone who has a different opinion or value than our own.

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Here is something to think about.  PTSD is real and effects many that have been to war.  Some veterans handle seeing and doing things better than others.   It is sad that generation after generation has to put our young soldiers through the horrors of war, but it happens.

Now we have this young generation of millennials that have years and years of sitting in front of a big screen playing violent video games.  Many of these modern games recreate actual war with all the realistic killing, screaming, and maiming.   No one will ever convince me that some of these 15 to 20 year old kids do not have similar PTSD issues just like they had went to war.  

These problems with this generation will not be fixed overnight.  One of my sons will be coming to visit me in a couple of weeks.  This will be the first time ever that we will be able to spend several days together, no work, no nothing, just him and I hanging out.  I plan on having some conversations with him about his son's (3 of my grandsons) exposure to such violent video games.

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23 hours ago, FL-JOE said:

The easy answer is just to get in front of a reporter and start blabbing about getting rid of all the guns... 

It is time for my children to re-evaluate how they have raised their kids.  Stepping off my soap box now.

 

Look at the rest of the industrialized world. Look at their gun deaths. Look at ours. Hate to break it to you but that debate has happened. Australia won.

I hope your children's children realize there are twice as many people as the world can support and say, "Ehh, no."  The single thing anyone can do to help perpetuate the human species is to not have any children. The way we're going, there are 30-40 years left for ol' homo sapiens. After that, war over water, war over food, war for war's sake. I won't be here to see it but it's coming if people don't quit breeding like rabbits. #ChildFree

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20 minutes ago, FL-JOE said:

Here is something to think about.  PTSD is real and effects many that have been to war.  Some veterans handle seeing and doing things better than others.   It is sad that generation after generation has to put our young soldiers through the horrors of war, but it happens.

Now we have this young generation of millennials that have years and years of sitting in front of a big screen playing violent video games.  Many of these modern games recreate actual war with all the realistic killing, screaming, and maiming.   No one will ever convince me that some of these 15 to 20 year old kids do not have similar PTSD issues just like they had went to war.  

These problems with this generation will not be fixed overnight.  One of my sons will be coming to visit me in a couple of weeks.  This will be the first time ever that we will be able to spend several days together, no work, no nothing, just him and I hanging out.  I plan on having some conversations with him about his son's (3 of my grandsons) exposure to such violent video games.

I believe you are correct. I work in a field where we use life size simulators, as does the military, for live fire scenario training. The two fold effect of that is 1) you have went through many possible scenarios, and 2) you have been exposed to having to use deadly force on multiple occasions. 

I was at a seminar put on by Colonel Dave Grossman several times in the past 20 years.  He said the same thing is the issue. Kids now get to be first person shooters, see blood fly and get awarded points for killing as their minds develop. How could any parent in their right mind think that is an okay thing for their child to do? Kids are being desensitized to violence that years ago they were maybe never exposed to unless they were in the military or law enforcement.

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We have a had a change in culture thus the change in Families. I'm a product of 8 years in the one room country schools and prayer was said in school.

America's laws were wrote with backing of GOD and the Ten Commandments. What has become of the "Leave it to Beaver" and the Cleaver Family?

Clay

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18 minutes ago, ms60ocb said:

 

... What has become of the "Leave it to Beaver" and the Cleaver Family?

Clay

The Cleaver family never existed.  They were on TV.  That was not reality.  Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news for you.

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1 hour ago, ms60ocb said:

We have a had a change in culture thus the change in Families. I'm a product of 8 years in the one room country schools and prayer was said in school.

America's laws were wrote with backing of GOD and the Ten Commandments. What has become of the "Leave it to Beaver" and the Cleaver Family?

Clay

They never existed. They were actors. That kind of family never existed. Most American families put the fun in dysfunctional. I'd share my story but I don't think the forum would appreciate the TMI.

As for "god," if he's there at all (not very likely), he needs to get his ass out of the cheap seats and quit being a G-D spectator.

I do not like religion in any way. America doesn't need religion as much as it needs simple, rational thought. Religion belongs in schools about as much as guns do. They often have similar effects

Edited by OldMan

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38 minutes ago, pjstough said:

The Cleaver family never existed.  They were on TV.  That was not reality.  Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news for you.

You beat me to it. GMTA!!! :D

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44 minutes ago, pjstough said:

The Cleaver family never existed.  They were on TV.  That was not reality.  Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news for you.

Of course they existed ... in the hearts and minds of millions . How much more real is there ? Smh .

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20 minutes ago, Pat & Pete said:

Of course they existed ... in the hearts and minds of millions . How much more real is there ? Smh .

#SMH

It. Was. A Lie. How real is any lie? Kind of tells you about the minds of those millions. As for their hearts... H.L. Mencken, as usual, was right then, and he's right, now. I especially like the first post. ;)

Edited by OldMan

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10 minutes ago, Pat & Pete said:

Of course they existed ... in the hearts and minds of millions . How much more real is there ? Smh .

Unfortunately, that is true.

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What bothers me is that nobody wants to take responsibility for violent acts.  Mainstream media yells GUN VIOLENCE so loud and so often that people begin to believe that guns, not people are the problem.   It is ironic that many more people are victims of drunk drivers and there is no outcry to ban cars.

Safe Travels...

 

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4 minutes ago, k4rs said:

What bothers me is that nobody wants to take responsibility for violent acts.  Mainstream media yells GUN VIOLENCE so loud and so often that people begin to believe that guns, not people are the problem.   It is ironic that many more people are victims of drunk drivers and there is no outcry to ban cars.

Safe Travels...

 

I am surprised that you are not able to see the difference between murder and car accidents.  If cars were used as often as guns are to kill people there would be an outcry to change the laws regarding cars, however, most people killed in cars are the result of accidents, not purposeful acts of murder, as is with the case of guns.

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