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Couple of Questions for Experienced Boondockers


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35 minutes ago, BlueLghtning said:

The solar is an absolute game changer for boondocking and I hate that I waited as long as I did.Ā 

As inexpensive as panels and components have become it's becoming more and more a no brainer to go solar. Especially the freedom to move about at a whim in the RV community. Even for a modest solar setup it literally pays for itself in the first year or 2 compared to CG fees.

Your experience is not at all unique. šŸ˜‰Ā 

Good on ya~

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My van had 400 watts of solar with no generator and no propaneĀ so everything in it ran on either dieselĀ or electricity. The only time I had to plug in was if I wanted to run my A/C. I did learn it helped to recharge laptop/tablet/phoneĀ in the morning so the panels had the afternoon to recharge the batteries. If it stayed overcast a few days I would use that as an excuse to drive 30 miles to the grocery store so my alternator would recharge batteries. I could do that by sitting still with the engine on high idle but I didn't like that method.

Linda Sand

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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47 minutes ago, sandsys said:

My van had 400 watts of solar with no generator and no propaneĀ so everything in it ran on either dieselĀ or electricity. The only time I had to plug in was if I wanted to run my A/C.

400 watts does not seem like a lot to run a refrigerator and any cooking appliances like a microwave, induction oven or even a coffee pot.Ā  Was your water heater and house heater diesel fueled? How big was your battery bank? Were your batteries lithium?

My TV and satellite receiver draw 100 watts. My laptop draws about 50 watts.Ā  My 160 watts of panels don't provide much battery charge when they are in use even with the fridge and water heater on propane.

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5 hours ago, trailertraveler said:

400 watts does not seem like a lot to run a refrigerator and any cooking appliances like a microwave, induction oven or even a coffee pot.Ā  Was your water heater and house heater diesel fueled? How big was your battery bank? Were your batteries lithium?

My TV and satellite receiver draw 100 watts. My laptop draws about 50 watts.Ā  My 160 watts of panels don't provide much battery charge when they are in use even with the fridge and water heater on propane.

My 7 cf fridge ran on electricity but I didn't open it a lot. I had an induction hot plate but mostly used theĀ microwave for quick cooking. I don't drink coffee so didn't power a coffee pot; if I wanted a "hot" drink I'd heat 6 oz of water for 1 minute in the microwave and stir in a packet of hot chocolate mix.Ā My 2.5 gallon water heater was electric but I only had to run it 10 minutes to get perfect temperature water for showering--no cold needed so I didn't pour any down the drain while trying to get the temperature right thusĀ I still had enough warm water left when I was ready to wash dishes. (Did you know blue Dawn is designed to work in cold water?)Ā My furnace was a diesel one designed forĀ semi-truck cabs which was plenty big enough for my van. My huge batteries were AGMs. I didn't have a TV nor satellite receiver.Ā Ā I had a 12v fan that, with open windows, kept me cool until the temperatures got above 90Ā°.Ā As we all know, what you need for power depends on how you live.

Linda Sand

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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9 hours ago, sandsys said:

...(Did you know blue Dawn is designed to work in cold water?)ā€¦

Yes and It also works great to clean birds and other animals trapped in oil spills.

9 hours ago, sandsys said:

As we all know, what you need for power depends on how you live.

I asked the questions because I am not so sure that is true for those new to Rving or boondocking such as the OP and others that start similar threads. Just as they may not understand how some folks arrive at very low nightly costs without explanations of workamping, boondocking, Wallydocking, etc.; they may not understand how much electrical or other power is needed for the lifestyle that will suit them.

Thanks for your response. Sounds like your energy use is a lot lower than ours.

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7 hours ago, trailertraveler said:

I asked the questions because I am not so sure that is true for those new to Rving or boondocking such as the OP and others that start similar threads. Just as they may not understand how some folks arrive at very low nightly costs without explanations of workamping, boondocking, Wallydocking, etc.; they may not understand how much electrical or other power is needed for the lifestyle that will suit them.

Helping one another learn the variations is what we are all about here. It really is all about the choices you make. My Dave is a big movie buff. When we traveled together we needed power to watch all those movies. I enjoy watching with him but when he's not there, I read instead.

Also I only showered once a week in my van. Between showers I used a damp wash cloth to clean the critical areas every morning. 3 oz of water is enough to dampen that wash cloth; if it's cold putting those 3 oz in the microwave for 30 seconds was enough to warm that water. This probably would not have been enough cleanliness if I spent much time doing strenuous or dirt producing activities but since I spentĀ most of my day on the computer and when I did go out it was mostly riding my TravelScoot such minimalist cleansing worked for me. Again, it's all in the decisions you make about how YOU want to live.

Linda

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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On 8/14/2018 at 4:33 PM, trailertraveler said:

..............My TV and satellite receiver draw 100 watts. My laptop draws about 50 watts.Ā  My 160 watts of panels don't provide much battery charge when they are in use even with the fridge and water heater on propane.

Watts are one way of noting electric use.Ā  Since batteries are rated in AH (amp hours) I find it a lot easier to work with amps.

A 160 watt solar panel, 13.3amps in laboratory conditions, (these will be rough figures) will give you about 5 amps by around 10am, probably 8 maybe 10amps between noon & 2pm (DST), but this has to be a very clear day w/o haze.Ā  This is pretty much assuming you have the panel flat on your roof.Ā  So for a full day, in good conditions, you are looking at maybe 50AH in a day.Ā Ā  Add a little haze, high clouds or some cloudiness and that number of AH drops pretty quickly.Ā  Again these are rough figures.Ā  You may get more AH's in a day from your panel.Ā  However a 160 watt panel will not give you 13 amps in the middle of the day in full sun.Ā  There is also some power loss in the wiring and if you have a solar controller there is some loss there.Ā  Additionally if the setup will not get the charge voltage up to about 14.5V or better at the battery, the charge efficiency is reduced.Ā  So you are not getting all the amps back in the battery.

Satellite TV receivers are a bit of a power hog, as you noted, pulling about 8-9amps per hour. So if you run the TV for 3 hours that is about 24-27AH.Ā 

Your background (phantom) usage is probably 0.6A to 1.0A.Ā  That accounts for 14-24AH every day.Ā  If you leave your inverter on, even if there is no 120V devices turned on, it pulls some amps.Ā 

It would be good to know if you have a battery monitor like a Trimetric.Ā  If you don't any usage and charging is just a guess.Ā  No real way to truly know what the actual usage is.Ā 

Ā 

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36GĀ 
2020Ā Chevy Colorado Toad
San Antonio, TX

http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/

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On 8/14/2018 at 4:33 PM, trailertraveler said:

400 watts does not seem like a lot to run a refrigerator and any cooking appliances like a microwave, induction oven or even a coffee pot.Ā  Was your water heater and house heater diesel fueled? How big was your battery bank? Were your batteries lithium?............

Agreed 400 watts of solar is not a lot when running an all elect RV and no generator.Ā  However Linda did mention she would run the van engine so the alternator would charge the battery when needed.Ā Ā  Assuming the fridge is an efficient 12V compressor usually used in marine environments they should use less power than residential fridges.Ā  Add in very conservative usage of electric devices, hopefully a pretty large battery bank, and that makes a large difference.Ā 

In our RV we have 650 watts of solar, and 400AH of lithium and we live very comfortably on solar w/o running the generator.Ā  That includes 4 or so hours of satellite TV, 2 laptops, some microwave, a toaster, charging handicapped power chair and scooter.Ā  The key here is we get a very comfortable 300AH of usable power from the lithium. Daily usage is about 150-200AH.Ā  Also with lithium I have no need to charge the batteries to 100% ever.Ā  With lead acid, including AGM, you still need to get the batteries to 100% frequently or you will loose capacity.Ā  If you take 400AH of lead acid and use 50% (200AH) that is a lot of AH to get back in the batteries consistently or even once a week.Ā  Many people, with lead acid batteries, crank up the generator for an hour every morning to get 70-80AH of charge back in, and then let the solar take over.Ā  This in one big reason I choose lithium.Ā  The other is weight.Ā  I didn't have a place I felt comfortable adding about 300 pounds of battery in a storage compartment.

Al & Sharon
2006 Winnebago Journey 36GĀ 
2020Ā Chevy Colorado Toad
San Antonio, TX

http://downtheroadaroundthebend.blogspot.com/

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6 hours ago, Al F said:

Assuming the fridge is an efficient 12V compressor usually used in marine environments they should use less power than residential fridges.Ā 

Yes, that. Plus, LED lights. Not restricting the conversion company to using typical RV devicesĀ helped a lot. Marine fridge, truck furnace, induction hot plate, etc.

Linda

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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On 8/14/2018 at 2:03 PM, BlueLghtning said:

It's interesting to see this bumped up. I've been boondocking since January pretty exclusively. We were using a Honda 2k for 98% of the time and maybe fired up the Onan 5500 now and then to exercise it. Back in April, I finally got an inverter and then while boondocking with some friends, I got to borrow a 100w solar suitcase setup. If I was running my inverter and a few computers and things, the 100w wasn't enough to keep up, but it sure did keep me from running the genny as much and if I left the inverter off, in full sun, it would bring the batteries back up.Ā 

about 3 weeks ago, I installed 800w of solar, bumped up to 6 6v batteries for 690ah total, plus a hybrid 2000w inverter. I haven't had to run a generator yet since I put the solar on and in full sun with my batteries at 100%, I can run my double fridge off electric for 5-7 hrs or so and not drag myself down. A few more panels would have made a nice difference.Ā 

The solar is an absolute game changer for boondocking and I hate that I waited as long as I did. Now that it's installed the boondocking is even more amazing. I have kept a closer watch on my propane use and 14-18 days per 30# propane tank seems to be pretty normal. I can extend that of course if I run the fridge off electric some.Ā 

What Hybrid inverter did you go with? Not yet ready for solar, but think it's time to replace the MSW 3000 watt inverter that doesn't seem to want to work with my residential fridge now. Can't even get even get it to last 12 hours now. Will be replacing the batteries at the same time and will try to locate a used lithium pack of some sort. I see you are still with the lead acid. Do you have an autowater system or just have a reminder to check?Ā 

Thanks in advance.Ā 

Rod

White 2000/2010Volvo VNL 770 with 7' Drom box with opposing doors,Ā  JOST slider hitch. 600 HP Cummins Signature 18 Speed three pedal auto shift.

1999 Isuzu VehiCross retired to a sticks and bricks garage. Brought out of storage the summer of 2022

2022 Jeep Wrangler Sport S Two door hard top.

2007 Honda GL 1800

2013 Space Craft Mfg S420 Custom built Toyhauler

The Gold Volvo is still running and being emptied in July.Ā 

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It's also important to realize that all panels are not created equal. Some 400watt systems can and do outproduce arrays nearly double in wattage size. As Al mentioned.. your wiring is also a very significant consideration... as well as how your panels are configured, how efficient your solar controller is (if installed) and what region of the country you tend to travel in. 400watts may be ample in some parts of the country but may fall short in others.

The number one factor when sizing your battery bank and solar system is to have a firm grasp of what your daily energy requirements are.

I have 540watts on my rig that is more than ample for my 440ah battery bank and daily usage. Then again, I don't often use my nuker (typically switched off at the circuit breaker), hand crank my coffee beans and use a french press (not because I have to, but my personal preference). My can opener is manual, cook on LP (or charcoal or wood whenever I'm able), use a catalytic propane heater and don't watch TV except on the rare occassion. Computers, printer, and other electronics have all been converted to native 12vdc wherever possible. My laptop choice also uses hot swappable battery bricks so when all 3 are fully charged I have close to 3 weeks worth of battery power on hand. That allows me the luxury of recharging them only when free solar production is available rather than "having" to cut into my battery bank every couple of days.

It's a strategy of supplementing my house battery bank with alternatives to allow for maximum use of excess solar production.

It really does boil down to the choices you make for your chosen lifestyle. My setup didn't happen over night, and may not be suitable for everyone, but everything that I travel with has been specifically geared toward a full-time boodocking lifestyle in mind... and 12v power consumption. That's not to say I haven't gone a little "soft" over the years. Not but a couple years ago I added a 120v camp washing machine, spin dryer and portable ice maker. Quite a "splurge" on 120v consumers for me, but more often than not I'm able to use them on excess solar production that has little to no impact on my battery bank.

There are things that can also be done to your rig to conserve energy. One of the biggies would be insuring that your house 12v wiring is up to par. Many factory installs are less than desired for efficient 12v transmission. Installing 12v switches on items you rarely use (like the radio and thermostat). Killing the breakers on things like your WH when not in use. They don't necessarily burn much energy, but in a 24hr day even a little here and there can add up to a decent sized chunk of juice that has to be replaced in a very small window of time with unpredictable cloud patterns. Manually operating your slides (if able), moving to all led lighting, installing an accumulator to minimize water pump run time, installing insulation to your vents and windows, etc. Keeping your wall warts unplugged when not in active use. Modifications can be made to refers to improve efficiency and reduce runtime. To aircon's to lower startup demands and energy consumption. Upgrading your showerhead. The list is nearly endless.

That being said, I'm what you would call a goldilocks boondocker and move with the climate. Heating and cooling can be quite costly. I do also carry two 2000watt portable inverter generators (could count on 1 hand the number of fairly serious boondockers that don't pack a genset of one type/size or another)... and while they don't get used much, when you need em, you "need" them. šŸ˜‰ I'm not above cranking the aircon for a bit to take the heat of the day out of the house, and as Al also mentioned, I run agm's (lead acid) that regularly require a full charge on. With solar, hitting 100% SOC, regularly, is not always a given no matter how low your energy requirements might be.

Just touching on watering systems for wet cells... there isn't much downside and, IHMO, a sound investment that will, for many, pay for itself. Not only in convenience, which in and of itself is going to make it more likely to maintain regular watering intervals, but also helps maintain equal electrolyte levels between cells by ensuring a complete and even fill across your battery bank. "Eyeballing" fill levels is generally going to keep you well within the ballpark, but having exact and equal fill levels each and every time is going to help maintain electrolyte concentrations within each cell of each battery. That's going to equate to more equalĀ charge/discharge rates and longer life.

Is it a must? No. Most people don't "exercise" their batteries to the point that they might see much difference. For them, it's just about the convenience... which itĀ most certainly is. For "intense" users... living off their battery banks... pulling and pushing amps daily... I would highly recommend it.Ā Ā 

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2 hours ago, Yarome said:

...what region of the country you tend to travel in. 400watts may be ample in some parts of the country but may fall short in others...

This is a factor that I think is often overlooked or missing from discussions about solar. We winter in Florida and it is not uncommon to have several days in a row without full sunshine. Several websites list the number of clear days for several areas of Florida at 100 or less per year while areas in the Southwest are over 200. We are currently in the Mid-Atlantic states and even though near beach resorts, within the past two weeks we had 5 days in a row with no sunshine at all.

It is not just the region of the country that affects the efficiency of solar. In past years, we spent the warmer months in the National Forests of New Mexico, Arizona and Colorado at elevations of 8,000-10,000 ft. In many of the areas we stayed, there was full sun at ground level for less than a full day or maybe none at all because of the forest canopy. The OP was asking about a camp host position without electric. I can recall many relatively remote Forest Service campgrounds and camp host sites that where beautifully shaded that I imagine would present a real challenge to relying heavily on solar. I would be taking a hard look at aerial photography of the campground and camp host site if the campground is in a forested area and I was intent on heavy reliance on solar.

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7 hours ago, lappir said:

think it's time to replace the MSW 3000 watt inverter that doesn't seem to want to work with my residential fridge now.

Anything, even a refrigerator, that has a circuit board in it is not going to like any MSW inverter. This is a repeat.

Linda Sand

Blog: http://sandcastle.sandsys.org/

Former Rigs: Liesure Travel van, Winnebago View 24H, Winnebago Journey 34Y, Sportsmobile Sprinter conversion van

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On 2/2/2018 at 11:35 AM, Lou Schneider said:

Gas refrigerators are almost unbelievably stingy with propane.Ā  The flame that provides the heat to run the cooling process is about the same size as your oven's pilot flame.Ā  It should use about a gallon a week, plus or minus.Ā 

I disagree.Ā  I have a 4-door Norcold 1200 (two refrigerator doors and two freezer doors), and it uses about 1/2 gallon of propane per day.Ā  I assume the refrigerators that are half this size would use less, but even at exactly half, that would be about two gallons of propane per week.Ā 

Ā 

On 8/14/2018 at 2:03 PM, BlueLghtning said:

I have kept a closer watch on my propane use and 14-18 days per 30# propane tank seems to be pretty normal.Ā 

Your 30 pounds of propane is 7 gallons, and using that amount over 14-18 days is about the same as my 1/2 gallon per day.Ā  Glad to hear someone else report actual numbers, because refrigerators use more propane than people expect or even think.

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15 hours ago, Blues said:

I disagree.Ā  I have a 4-door Norcold 1200 (two refrigerator doors and two freezer doors), and it uses about 1/2 gallon of propane per day.Ā  I assume the refrigerators that are half this size would use less, but even at exactly half, that would be about two gallons of propane per week.Ā 

Ā 

Your 30 pounds of propane is 7 gallons, and using that amount over 14-18 days is about the same as my 1/2 gallon per day.Ā  Glad to hear someone else report actual numbers, because refrigerators use more propane than people expect or even think.

Yeah, I have a double fridge also and that is running the water heater on propane to heat it up every other day. Some stove/oven use also.Ā 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.comĀ orĀ Two Wheel Ramblin

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On 8/17/2018 at 8:09 AM, lappir said:

What Hybrid inverter did you go with? Not yet ready for solar, but think it's time to replace the MSW 3000 watt inverter that doesn't seem to want to work with my residential fridge now. Can't even get even get it to last 12 hours now. Will be replacing the batteries at the same time and will try to locate a used lithium pack of some sort. I see you are still with the lead acid. Do you have an autowater system or just have a reminder to check?Ā 

Thanks in advance.Ā 

Rod

Hey Rod, I went with the Go Power IC-2000. They have an IC-3000 also. It's one of the few inverters that actually has dual 50 amp pass through so when you are running on the inverter, everything in the rig has power. Now the hybrid or load assist is only on Line 1, but I'm okay with that.Ā 

Why do you think the inverter is an issue with the fridge? That sounds more like a battery issue?Ā 

I do have lead acid and I just check them. So far I've found it's every couple months at the most they need water. They are easy to get to also.Ā 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.comĀ orĀ Two Wheel Ramblin

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28 minutes ago, BlueLghtning said:

Why do you think the inverter is an issue with the fridge? That sounds more like a battery issue?Ā 

Could be but I believe they were talking about that fact that it's an MSW (modified sine wave) inverter. The more "computer" controlled an item is the more likely it will be... or will become... less tolerant of MSW power. Some devices will not operate at all on MSW power. The ones that do work just fine on MSW will "work", but no way around it... MSW current is very "hard" on any generation of electronic and will shorten their lifespan.

I know we generally think of "computer controlled" as being non-tolerant of MSW current, but many items... like the magnetron of a microwave won't fire off MSW.

The price difference gap between MSW and PSW has closed so much though these days that it's become much more of an option even for those with limited budgets.Ā 

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2 minutes ago, Yarome said:

Could be but I believe they were talking about that fact that it's an MSW (modified sine wave) inverter. The more "computer" controlled an item is the more likely it will be... or will become... less tolerant of MSW power. Some devices will not operate at all on MSW power. The ones that do work just fine on MSW will "work", but no way around it... MSW current is very "hard" on any generation of electronic and will shorten their lifespan.

I know we generally think of "computer controlled" as being non-tolerant of MSW current, but many items... like the magnetron of a microwave won't fire off MSW.

The price difference gap between MSW and PSW has closed so much though these days that it's become much more of an option even for those with limited budgets.Ā 

ahh yeah, I missed the MSW part. I agree then a pure sine wave would be much better!Ā 

Dan (Class of 2017) - 2012 Ram 3500 & 2005 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK
Contact me at rvsolarconsulting.comĀ orĀ Two Wheel Ramblin

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