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BlueLghtning

"Not for Hire" Busted article

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I came across this article that was shared with a car racing group. It was written for the horse show crowd (Dolly Trolley came to mind), but lots of groups outside the pure RV life could be affected. I know there have been lots of discussions on here about what exactly makes you commercial and what may not. There are some comments in this article that seem to contradict some of the topics that have come up on here though and have me question his knowledge. The section about what actually makes you Commercial concerning weights seems to have contradicting information? He gives a few examples where he claims weights alone make your vehicle commercial, but many of us have discussed that in length and many states don't see to have that requirement so not sure where that is coming from? Maybe because in his examples he's talking about pickup trucks that aren't classified as RV's? 

I think with the ELD mandate going live this month we may be under a lot more scrutiney with our HDT's as they try to find those trying to skirt the new law.

http://www.onlineequine.com/not-for-hire-busted-new-federal-mandate-to-effect-horse-show-industry-in-a-big-way/

 

Edited by BlueLghtning

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I’m a bit confused.  The article seems to indicate that any vehicle combination above 26001 lbs. requires a CDL.  Is that a federal requirement or state by state?  When I registered my truck in Tennessee, I specifically went to the drivers license office and spoke to the head honcho.  It just so happened she had just returned from a training session in Nashville and told me my truck (registered as a motor home) and trailer combo was an RV (total wgt. 45000 lbs.) and exempted from CDL and could be driven legally on my class D license.  She also added it could weigh a million pounds and have 10 axles and still be exempted but I might be overlength.  I confirmed this with Nashville.  Now that’s been 8 years ago so things may have changed but I’ve not seen anything to the contrary.  Is my information incorrect?

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I believe this article is couched in that the vehicles they are describing are in the use of hauling livestock, some also containing living quarters.  I believe this article is aimed at the people Phil is constantly describing who are, in fact, involved in commercial enterprise:  competing (with animals or whatever) for prize money.  These operations have always been commercial.  They have (IMO) fallen into a grey area that wasn't enforced uniformly.

 

Our (My) vehicles are recreational vehicles.  Some, with spaces for additional recreational cargo (toy and Dolly haulers).  I didn't read anything in the article that gives pause to my personal legality.

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34 minutes ago, BlueLghtning said:

I came across this article that was shared with a car racing group. It was written for the horse show crowd (Dolly Trolley came to mind), but lots of groups could be affected. I know there have been lots of discussions on here about what exactly makes you commercial and what may not. There some comments in this article that seem to contradict some of the topics that have come up on here though. The section about what actually makes you Commercial concerning weights seems to have contradicting information? He gives a few examples where he claims weights alone make your vehicle commercial? Maybe because in his examples he's talking about pickup trucks that aren't classified as RV's? 

I think with the ELD mandate going live this month we may be under a lot more scrutiney with our HDT's as they try to find those trying to skirt the new law.

http://www.onlineequine.com/not-for-hire-busted-new-federal-mandate-to-effect-horse-show-industry-in-a-big-way/

 

Hi Everyone,

It is interesting about the article. Just because it is written does not make it true.

Al

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8 minutes ago, alan0043 said:

Hi Everyone,

It is interesting about the article. Just because it is written does not make it true.

Al

Very true Al. It certainly doesn't make it true just because it's written is some article. I don't think any of us doing purely an RV life have anything to worry about, just that we may be under more scruiteny going forward so maybe even more reason to have your paperwork in order. However I think some comments in there were interesting like the one that said if you claimed your truck or trailer as an expense on your taxes. 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, SuiteSuccess said:

I’m a bit confused.  The article seems to indicate that any vehicle combination above 26001 lbs. requires a CDL.  Is that a federal requirement or state by state?  When I registered my truck in Tennessee, I specifically went to the drivers license office and spoke to the head honcho.  It just so happened she had just returned from a training session in Nashville and told me my truck (registered as a motor home) and trailer combo was an RV (total wgt. 45000 lbs.) and exempted from CDL and could be driven legally on my class D license.  She also added it could weigh a million pounds and have 10 axles and still be exempted but I might be overlength.  I confirmed this with Nashville.  Now that’s been 8 years ago so things may have changed but I’ve not seen anything to the contrary.  Is my information incorrect?

Carl, any "commercial" vehicle over 26,001 lbs require a CDL (and some under). You are fine doing like you have been. I'm sitting in class right now. I'll read the article later.

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Hi Everyone,

I have read the article and it seems like the author has answered his own questions. I wonder what gray area are the horse people are trying to look at. If you answer any questions with an 'yes' , it seems to me that you are commercial. If you see that I am wrong please explain to me.

Al

Edited by alan0043

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A lot of people confuse a state requirement for a combination class A or B, with CDL A or B.

There are two seperate arguments.  First is the need for a higher class of license because of weight.  The second is the need for a Commercial license.

Again, those are seperate issues, that could be combined if what you do falls under a “commercial” definition.  For what people typically refer to as a true recreational use, it will be non commercial license.  

An easy example is someone with an F-450 who tows a huge Toyhauler and they have a combined gross weight of 27,000 pounds, to go camping, will be required by many states, to have a higher class combination license.

Edited by VegasFlyer

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As a further example, here is an excerpt from Nevada law that is being offered as an example.  Note that there was s no mention of commercial or CDL.

 

Non-Commercial Vehicle Classifications  

Class A           May drive any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds, provided the vehicle being towed has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of more than 10,000 pounds; or  Any combination of vehicles not exceeding 70 feet in length with a gross combination weight rating of 26,000 pounds or less so long as the gross combination weight rating of the towed vehicles does not exceed the gross vehicle weight rating of the towing vehicle.  

Class B           May drive any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 or more pounds, or any vehicle which is towing another vehicle which does not have a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 10,000 pounds.  

Class C          May drive any single vehicle or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of a vehicle for which a Class A or B driver’s license is required.  May tow a combination of vehicles not to exceed 70 feet in length and not to exceed a combined weight rating or  a  combined weight of  more than 10,000 pounds without any additional testing or endorsements. 

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Really there haven't been any major changes to the hours of service rules and federal regs for the last ten years. (There have been to physicals and drug testing.)  The ELD mandate is only reducing the opportunity to cheat the laws that were already there.

As someone who used to drive for a living, I think ELDs will be a good thing in the long run. Eventually the shippers and receivers will have to get their act together and not expect the drivers to make it happen.

As far as the article goes, it is mostly correct, again nothing has really changed recently.  The not for hire sinage hasnt meant much of anything since the demise of the ICC many years ago.

As to drivers licenses, if you have a motor home for personal use only, you do not require a CDL. Your state may require a higher class license, but is not a CDL.

If you drive a PERSONAL truck and live in a state that does not have higher class non commercial licenses, you may well have to have a CDL.

Also, many states have the ands and ors mixed up in their class A definition.

Edited by Moresmoke
I was wrong.

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30 minutes ago, Moresmoke said:

As to drivers licenses, if you have a motor home, you are exempt from a CDL, period. That is pretty clear in the rules and regs. 

Not true.

Your intention may be correct, but your language isn't even close. 

Simply having a "motorhome" does not exempt you from CDL or the Fed Regs. My HDT is registered as a motorhome but the minute New Horizons pays me to deliver a trailer to a dealer, I need a CDL, log book, dot number, etc to drive it. The same goes for the Prevost MH with the vinyl wrap saying "Progressive insurance" and "Follow me to the rally for a quote".

The same applies to your statement about your "personal" truck.

The exemption to CDL and the Fed Regs are not given to vehicles. The exemption is given to vehicles used in a specific manner. By definition, our HDT's ARE commercial motor vehicles. Our usage is what exempts us.

Edited by Big5er

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2 hours ago, Big5er said:

Not true.

Your intention may be correct, but your language isn't even close. 

Simply having a "motorhome" does not exempt you from CDL or the Fed Regs. My HDT is registered as a motorhome but the minute New Horizons pays me to deliver a trailer to a dealer, I need a CDL, log book, dot number, etc to drive it. The same goes for the Prevost MH with the vinyl wrap saying "Progressive insurance" and "Follow me to the rally for a quote".

The same applies to your statement about your "personal" truck.

The exemption to CDL and the Fed Regs are not given to vehicles. The exemption is given to vehicles used in a specific manner. By definition, our HDT's ARE commercial motor vehicles. Our usage is what exempts us.

You are correct.  I edited my post to hopefully not spread false information.

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The article just says the same things I have said on this topic all along.  A lot of folks who thought they were ok or in a gray area because they think they have a racing "hobby" are and have been "commercial" all along.  Nothing really new here.  EXCEPT the possibility of having to install an ELD to be allowed to continue the trip.  There have been plenty of folks handed an armful of tickets for not having all the required licences/paperwork/equipment for a commercial vehicle, and one not uncommon penalty was being placed out of service on the spot for 10 hours for not having a log book.  After the 10 hours you could continue on your way with your armload of tickets (assuming you have the appropriate license to operate the vehicle in question).  But now the author (I think correctly) brings up the possibility that once the DOT officer deems your rig commercial and requiring an ELD that you may not be able to proceed on your trip AT ALL until one is installed.

Phil or Chad, since you are in that business, have any of your training classes covered that yet?  If you find a commercial truck without an ELD does he get a ticket and go on his way, or is the truck out of service until one is installed? 

Edited by Hot Rod
clarity

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Commercial People competing for $250 in prize money deduct all expenses and depreciation of their animals and/ or vehicles and equipment at tax time, right?

 

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3 hours ago, Hot Rod said:

Phil or Chad, since you are in that business, have any of your training classes covered that yet?  If you find a commercial truck without an ELD does he get a ticket and go on his way, or is the truck out of service until one is installed? 

Funny you should ask that...the class I mentioned being in earlier covered that exact subject. 

An out of service for No Record of Duty Status is, like you said, a 10 hour OOS. And, an OOS violation is required to be corrected prior to going back in service. A flat tire is OOS, repair the tire and you are back in service, but No RODS requires 10 hours off for a rest period, because a driver with no RODS cannot show when his last rest period was. Like the flat tire, it is supposed to also be corrected. Driving off after your 10 hrs will get you two tickets the next time. The same No RODS and another for opertating an OOS vehicle. Some states (not Texas any longer) will jail you and/or tow your vehicle if you get caught driving after being placed OOS. 

 

Moresmoke is right. There have been no recent changes of any significance to the hours of service regs. Nothing the author (who is he by the way? There is no name on that article) says is new. Everyone that the new ELD rule affects (effects?) are the same bunch I stop all the time because they are in violation anyway, the racers and the horsers. This is just another law they will attempt to get around. As enforcement against them increases, so does our visibility and that leads to a greater chance of us getting stopped. 

 

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So kinda sorta a related question.  I imagine these guys are part-timers and I imagine it'll be pretty popular to use the 8 day of 30 exemption for not needing an ELD, but still using paper logs.  That's pretty plain and self explanatory, but how do you prove you fit that?  You've got your previous 7 showing no driving, then current day (or seven days on-duty RODS prior to trip start + trip logged so far).  That's pretty normal today, but doesn't really show a month and doesn't really explicitly show the exemption.  Is the monthly recap good enough?  Are you supposed to have a whole month of on-duty paper logs filled out to show it fits?  Or if there are only up to 8 days filled out for the month does that assume the exemption?  Or is this a call the office and have them send records type of thing?

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The key to this is what is stated in the article"engaged in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise". In plan language, if you stand to make money by driving the vehicle you are a commercial enterprise. I've never seen anyone  engaged in horse shows that does not stand to make money; doesn't mean they do make money,just that they stand to make money(a possibility).

 

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On 12/5/2017 at 6:17 AM, BlueLghtning said:

I came across this article that was shared with a car racing group. It was written for the horse show crowd (Dolly Trolley came to mind), but lots of groups outside the pure RV life could be affected. I know there have been lots of discussions on here about what exactly makes you commercial and what may not. There are some comments in this article that seem to contradict some of the topics that have come up on here though and have me question his knowledge. The section about what actually makes you Commercial concerning weights seems to have contradicting information? He gives a few examples where he claims weights alone make your vehicle commercial, but many of us have discussed that in length and many states don't see to have that requirement so not sure where that is coming from? Maybe because in his examples he's talking about pickup trucks that aren't classified as RV's? 

I think with the ELD mandate going live this month we may be under a lot more scrutiney with our HDT's as they try to find those trying to skirt the new law.

http://www.onlineequine.com/not-for-hire-busted-new-federal-mandate-to-effect-horse-show-industry-in-a-big-way/

 

BUSTED!!!!

BLUE......  U GOT ME ........     RED HANDED!!!

After DECADES of .......HORSE SMUGGLING.......for way, WAY, too many HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of miles IMAGINE ........My life of CRIMINAL HORSE SMUGGLING was ........OUTED by a bunch of old GEEZERS (and a few younger wanna-bee-geezers)........

I tell ya boys........I kinda fee must feel like Al Capone when the bean-counters at the IRS slammed the Iron door of his prison cell.....

SO...........NOW  BLUE,......  NOW WHAT SHOULD DO??????

SO.........OBVIOUSLY I SHOULD GO SOME WHERE AND TURN MY SELF IN SO THAT I CAN BE FINGERPRINTED, and, and MUG-SHOT and maybe WHIPPED with a RUBBER HOSE in the DRUNK TANK........

Now me and the Dollymomma don't bother watching TV but we do troll the net planning our next HORSE-SMUGGLING TRIP so it's impossible not to see Gen. Flyn and Manifort, and....and.....and everyone that is ANYONE has to have a couple of sleazy-lawyers hold their hands as the get wisk-away-to-jail-to-bee-booked.............

SO...........I call a bunch of SLEASY-LAWERS that I used to do some EX-pert witness gigs for in wrongful death actions.........AND I broke-down crying on the phone to them admitting my HORSE SMUGGLING CRIMINAL PAST and PRESENT......

Being SLEAZY-Lawyers they said..........send the ......"evidence".......over and they would give me a "Legal-opinion" about screwed I was........GULP!!

SO   BLUE...... NOW  can IMAGINE how badly these former DOT Lawyers wet-themselves rolling on the floor laughing as they red the ......"BUSTED" link that you had posted here......

The SLEAZY-LAWYERS gave me a  S    H    O    R   T  legal opinion(s)

1) cut back on time spent on the internet......WAY BACK.....

2) Obviously ALL legal "advice" obtained over the internet is 1000% right or not right and likely worth EXACTLY what it "COST"

3) What the heck are you geezers drinking on the HDT forum......(Maybe you should try some.......Dr. Pepper and some Mydoll??)

4) When we were DOT -Sleazy-Prosecutors we looked forward to the days in the future when no more truckers popped-pills-and-cut-corners on HAZMAT and ran broken equipment so that we could get our teeth into ........4H bunny & gerbble  smugglers and horsers and racers and............the holy grail of DOT--CRIME.........HDT-RV-GEEZERS.......

5) by the way.....IF indeed you are NOT commercial........read the "NO RV's" darn signs......don't clutter up the scales where the "real-truckers" go.

As far as turning myself into be jailed........they just laughed in my face........you are like millions of pet-horsers ........you only PAY money OUT of your pocket with your horse-fetish.........never a penny or any competitive value sought or obtained.......get a life.......

YOU see  BLUE...... NOW  I am just a horse stable mucker and dont even get the "NO RESPECT" that Rodney Dangerfield never got........

As a life-long-criminal-wanna-bee I will still keep the Dollytrolley Hide-a-horse-in-the-bac-of-the-toy-hauler just so that I can keep feeling like a small time (one-horse) horse-smuggler.......

 

Drive on........(keep a few Sleazy-DOT-Lawyers phone numbers in your .....Black-book)

 

 

 

 

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Dolly, though I appreciate your brand of dry humor, I got a completely different message from the article. 

The reason why I included a reference to you in my earlier post is that your activities with your horse are purely for recreation.  Unless I am wrong, you are not competing with Dolly at shows, rodeos, races or other prize money making events.  Just trail riding and the like. 

I took the article as aimed primarily at people who are transporting animals (or other cargo) to use in competition events.

 

But, maybe I'm very wrong. 

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Hey Dolly, I hope you know I wasn't attacking you or anything. I just brought you up because you do travel with horses. Honestly I have no idea if it was just for fun or competition. Somitems I'm not sure how to take your posts so I hope I didn't step over a line. 

I was mostly just sharing the article. I'm sure you are smarter than that guy that wrote it anyways. ;) 

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1 hour ago, BlueLghtning said:

Hey Dolly, I hope you know I wasn't attacking you or anything. I just brought you up because you do travel with horses. Honestly I have no idea if it was just for fun or competition. Somitems I'm not sure how to take your posts so I hope I didn't step over a line. 

I was mostly just sharing the article. I'm sure you are smarter than that guy that wrote it anyways. ;) 

Hey Blue,

When you wonder the trail of life to the corner where you get a glimpse of the ......"final rodeo"........there just too many "lines" that people may or may NOT cross that get under your hide .......so don't worry much about this geezer or the few lines nearby........

Grumps used to say........"Einstine. . . . you'll know when it's time to die . . . . things will get CRAZY . . . . you see Geezers know crazy when they see it.......and younger folks just think everything is peachy because they have not lived long enough to see what happens down the road when bad laws and regulations screw things up........only geezers know....

Unlike most of the rest of the folks here I actually like it when I see a red and blue light in my mirrors because it usually means that I need some help like a trailer light is burned out or a water tank drain is leaking.......

Now if I did something dumb and the LEO needs to have a chat .......well thats fine because geezers often need someone to chat with.

It's been many moons since I got a burr-under-the-saddle with the law..... but..... if it were to happen  I would just call up that bunch of sleazy-ex-DOT-Lawyers and let them get me some kinda pardon like sheriff-Joe.......

Now as some might know Big5er kinda likes to "use" me as some kinda example of a sketchy-geezer and he has been dealing with low-life folks for a long time so he knows what he is doing so some months ago he "outed" me and the "pink-Vespa" that I use commercially to run horse-errands ...... so did I need a CDL.......maybe....... but instead I am getting a camo-job done on the Vespa and it will look like a Hellfire missile .......

BLUE the Sleazy-EX-Dot-Lawyer seemed to get a lotta giggles from your posts so keep them coming ....when they stop laughing things tend to get costly.......

Now regarding Dolly......she aint no cheep date.......there is PLENTY of money paid out......I know......I am the one that PAYS.....and its commercial to the max.......I pay for the Horse-Vet, the Horse- hay-guys, Horse-Trailer-guys, Horse-tire-guys, Horse-saddle-guys.....and the list goes on and on.....

Now Blue don't fret much about me I have a Commercial license and a pickup load of logbooks in the back corner of the hanger somewhere so I am very likely in "compliance" with some rule somewhere .  .  .  .maybe  .   .   .   .

 

Drive on.........(where is my........logbook(z))

 

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2 minutes ago, Big5er said:

I think DT has been smoking a bit too much of Dolly's hay....:)

Darn your hide Big5.....

Actually I have been pitching the "used hay" around and perhaps the fumes got to me.......

Like I said......you have keen insights into .....low-life-geezers......

I gotta go gas up the Vespa ......(two gallons per year).....gotta get off Last Chance Peak and go to town ........getting critical low on Dr. Pepper......addiction is a very bad thing......

 

Drive on........... (someone has to define the ......low-life......)

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youse guys need to come to visit us in Canada purdy soon it will be completely fine an dandy to smoke some of Dolly's hay, eh?

 

Edited by noteven

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