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23 minutes ago, oldjohnt said:

ND, I fully support your (even if over safe) decision and likewise other decisions. As a 47 year RV user, engineer and an attorney who has been made aware of all sorts of accidents and liability, I'm pretty much "wired" the same way as you and many RV users, better safe and even OVERsafe then sorry.

Welcome here, best wishes and God Bless.

John T

John, what do you after travelling all day in freezing weather and pull into a campsite and find you water pipes frozen and broken? Of course this does not concern you, if you only travel in temperate climates. Have helped change out water lines on many coaches that owners thought could not freeze.

Edited by jcussen

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1 hour ago, jcussen said:

John, what do you after travelling all day in freezing weather and pull into a campsite and find you water pipes frozen and broken? Of course this does not concern you, if you only travel in temperate climates. Have helped change out water lines on many coaches that owners thought could not freeze.

Maybe John has a little different way , but , there is a way for the 'over safe than sorry' crowd to avoid frozen water lines  : As far as I know , every RV has a low point drain . Simply open it when getting on the road . It should drain all water lines , so nothing to freeze . 

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1 hour ago, Pat & Pete said:

Maybe John has a little different way , but , there is a way for the 'over safe than sorry' crowd to avoid frozen water lines  : As far as I know , every RV has a low point drain . Simply open it when getting on the road . It should drain all water lines , so nothing to freeze . 

Winterizing, or protecting against freezing, is a lot more complicated than that. You have low points, traps, water pumps where water etc will not drain out of. Many many posts on winterizing. RV antifreeze solution is a big seller for a reason. I am thinking most people that do not dry camp, [draining out all your water lines every night, thats a lot of water?] are people that do not camp in really cold weather.  That is fine. Thats your lifestyle. But believe me, if you go to Northern Minnesota in January, you will be running your water heater and probably your furnace on propane or electric most of the time, or you will be staying in motels.

But my main question is, why the fear of propane? what is the difference between using propane when running down the road to being sound asleep in your trailer? If propane is so inherently dangerous, would  you not want it 20 ft behind you, as opposed to under your bed? Modern safety devices will not allow the unregulated discharge of propane.  Do be careful, more and more propane and natural gas powered vehicles on the road all the time.

Edited by jcussen

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On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 10:15 AM, oldjohnt said:

 

  ""John, what do you after travelling all day in freezing weather and pull into a campsite and find you water pipes frozen and broken? Of course this does not concern you, if you only travel in temperate climates. Have helped change out water lines on many coaches that owners thought could not freeze""

 

Hey jc, good question, thanks for asking. Thank the Lord I NEVER had that happen. When I used to have to winterize I made sure the lines, including possible low gathering points, contained RV Anti Freeze (NOT water) to avoid water collecting and freezing. Then once I arrived far enough south where freezing wasn't a concern I drained all the AFZ and flushed the lines and filed with water. NEVER had a line freeze that way even when I left cold Indiana in the winter and drained flushed and refiled once in Georgia yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

18 minutes ago, jcussen said:

But my main question is, what is the difference between running propane when running down the road to being sound asleep in your trailer?

 

 ANOTHER GREAT QUESTION, thanks for asking. Here's the difference. When driving down the road there's more of a chance of a crash then when parked DUH and if there was a crash that may well produce flames or sparks, it has to be safer if gas is turned off at the tank versus if not (say you ran a furnace or something when driving) with a ruptured gas line spewing out gas !!!!!!!! Sure, you "may or may not" have mechanical safety devices to shut gas off if that happened and it "may or may not work" but are you willing to BET YOUR LIFE ON IT WORKING IF IN A CRASH ???????? that's strictly a persons free choice which I support and expect the same in return.

NOTE there's no right or wrong answer here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, this is NOT something to argue over,,,,,,,,,,,,,,THIS IS A PERSONS FREE CHOICE TO OPERATE HIS OWN RV AS HE PLEASES AND TO ASSUME OR REDUCE OR TAKE ANY RISKS EVEN IF SLIGHT AS HE SO WISHES. Over many years as an RV user and dealer plus being an attorney Ive just been made aware of risks and liability and accidents and its my own choice to be better safe then sorry BUT I SUPPORT OTHERS CHOICES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I posted these articles above regarding the potential hazards of LP Gas operating when driving and found them quite interesting but AM NOT SAYING OR TELLING OTHERS WHAT THEY SHOULD DO OR NOT DO and expect the same  courtesy in return.   Again these are NOT MY WORDS so if you disagree take it up with the authors nottttttttt me lol I'm ONLY the messenger

https://rvshare.com/blog/dangerous-use-propane-gas/

https://www.aisinsurance.com/products/recreational-vehicle/rv-articles/traveling-with-propane.aspx

http://www.doityourselfrv.com/is-it-dangerous-to-run-an-rv-propane-refrigerator-while-driving-your-rv/

http://roadtreking.com/rt62-need-know-propane-driving-rv/

http://www.rvdoctor.com/2010/12/propane-on-while-driving-rv-oh-boy.html

THANKS FOR THE QUESTIONS JC

Yall take care, be safe, make wise decisions and I support anyones right to choose how he operates his own RV. I made my choices and yall make yours and I'm sure not here to try and stop you !!!!!!!!!

 

John T

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 10:15 AM, oldjohnt said:

 

 

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1 hour ago, jcussen said:

Winterizing, or protecting against freezing, is a lot more complicated than that. You have low points, traps, water pumps where water etc will not drain out of. Many many posts on winterizing. RV antifreeze solution is a big seller for a reason. I am thinking most people that do not dry camp, [draining out all your water lines every night, thats a lot of water?] are people that do not camp in really cold weather.  That is fine. Thats your lifestyle. But believe me, if you go to Northern Minnesota in January, you will be running your water heater and probably your furnace on propane or electric most of the time, or you will be staying in motels.

But my main question is, why the fear of propane? what is the difference between using propane when running down the road to being sound asleep in your trailer? If propane is so inherently dangerous, would  you not want it 20 ft behind you, as opposed to under your bed? Modern safety devices will not allow the unregulated discharge of propane.  Do be careful, more and more propane and natural gas powered vehicles on the road all the time.

Maybe I misunderstood . I thought you asked about a days travel , not winterizing . 

Draining the lines as I suggested would be sufficient to keep the lines from freezing while on the 'frozen' road . Moving water takes a lot longer to freeze . That includes the water in any low spot in the lines . ;)

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14 minutes ago, Pat & Pete said:

Maybe I misunderstood . I thought you asked about a days travel , not winterizing . 

Draining the lines as I suggested would be sufficient to keep the lines from freezing while on the 'frozen' road . Moving water takes a lot longer to freeze . That includes the water in any low spot in the lines . ;)

"Moving water" maybe a stream, but a p-trap under a sink sits pretty still enough even if you are moving. at 0 f. might take a couple of hours to freeze. Not passing on B.S., had a 4905 bus conversion, lived in Tacoma, never had any problems. Visited relatives in Northern B.C., temps in the zero's, had propane heat on in coach because engine heat would not keep up. Inside was in the 60's but bays, about ambient temps, 5 f., . Hot water heater, [propane] was on, so had hot shower, only problem, water was backing up. In morning looked in bays and found 2 p-traps split and because of hot shower water thawing them out, refrozen water in floor of bays. 

Seems a lot of experts are warm weather weekend campers. Only way for op to make a real decision is for him to experience it.  Changing out pvc is not too hard, but still a pia. 

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Pat and Pete, and jc,

  Years ago I found that even if I did a good job of blowing out the lines and even if I managed to get all the water out of low spots (for the time at least), over a long winter and temperature changes and freezing and thawing moisture would condense and settle in low spots  grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. After that I got into the habit of pumping anti freeze throughout the system and since then never had a freeze up. For 10 years now I "half time" in which case I don't need to winterize because I leave in October lol

 

Fun chattin with you, take care n be safe

 

John T 

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You are right John, way too dangerous out there.

Not trying to get people to change their minds, just trying to point out other views and the actual facts. Just because one person said it was dangerous, does not make it so. In the early 1900's everyone though cocaine was good for you..............

Love to know all the legal ramifications. Have you won cases because someone had a propane heater on when travelling  and it blew up the propane tanks when moving?

The more you know about something, the more chances you can make a accurate assessment.

By the way, these are good articles of propane safety:

http://www.usealtfuels.com/?page_id=12

https://itstillruns.com/advantages-disadvantages-propanefueled-cars-6946830.html

http://www.elgas.com.au/blog/722-are-lpg-cars-safer-than-petrol

Like I posted before, the rv, tt, 5th wheel manufacturers do not recommend shutting down propane appliances while travelling, and in this litigious  society, that is almost an endorsement.

I do agree with you about personal choice. But if all you hear in life is "the sky is falling chicken little" you will probably think the sky is falling.

Wish I had the option of winterizing all the water lines when I went up north draining them and not using them until we get south again. To me, RVing is using the coach any time and in any climate.

By the way, just watched the news about a horrendous explosion of a pickup and car, bursting into flame and killing 2 people. Pretty sure both were gas powered.

 

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2 hours ago, jcussen said:

"Moving water" maybe a stream, but a p-trap under a sink sits pretty still enough even if you are moving. at 0 f. might take a couple of hours to freeze. Not passing on B.S., had a 4905 bus conversion, lived in Tacoma, never had any problems. Visited relatives in Northern B.C., temps in the zero's, had propane heat on in coach because engine heat would not keep up. Inside was in the 60's but bays, about ambient temps, 5 f., . Hot water heater, [propane] was on, so had hot shower, only problem, water was backing up. In morning looked in bays and found 2 p-traps split and because of hot shower water thawing them out, refrozen water in floor of bays. 

Seems a lot of experts are warm weather weekend campers. Only way for op to make a real decision is for him to experience it.  Changing out pvc is not too hard, but still a pia. 

True .  I should have said SHOULD instead of WOULD . 

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I am always amused by the huge safety concern about traveling with the propane system on. 

Really if you are that concerned about safety, you really should not be traveling in or towing any kind of RV.  Compared to an automobile travel in or towing these large very hard to stop, vehicles expose you to extreme risks of no being able to avoid a crash.

--  Consider the numerous accidents caused by a blown tire, especially the steer tires

--  Not being able to stop.  A modern auto will stop in about 150 feet feet from 60mph.  An RV, would take maybe twice or three times as far to stop

--  Fires caused by leaking gasoline or diesel is far more common than propane fires.  Note: most diesel pushers have the fuel tank up front and a long fuel line back to the engine.  Most gas motorhomes have the tank in the back and again a long fuel line to the front.

--  Travel in any Class A MH you sit above or in front of the front tires.  Hit a solid object and you are the first to hit the object.  Class C is a little better, but you are still pretty far forward.

--  So you bomb down the road at 55-60mph (many even drive at 65-75mph) and don't think a thing about the dangers of driving at that speed compared to 35-40mph.  Consider, that if you always drove at 35mph in modern day automobiles with seat belts, air bags, anti lock brakes, etc,  you are almost guaranteed to survive a crash compared to 55-75mph.  Of course you would greatly impede traffic and expose yourself to being rear ended by another vehicle.   Note: this is about your personal safety, not about how many hours and inconvenient it would be to take over 10 hours to go 300 miles on an interstate hwy (that is including bathrooms stops and lunch stops).  It would be take even longer on 2 lane or 4 lane roads to go 300 miles. 

So, no, I don't worry about traveling with the propane.  I just consider it one more minor risk of traveling.

If I truly was that concerned, maybe I should just stay home and not travel.  

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About references to opinions about travel with the propane on or off, such as these: 

Quote

They are opinions, from lay people.  Not a factual discussions with supporting documentation. 

Sometimes these "opinions" provide totally incorrect info.  Such as the one from AIS Insurance where they state that it only takes 8 parts per million of propane to ignite from a spark or flame source.  That is totally incorrect.  The concentration is at least 250 times as much as 8 PPM, at 2100 PPM.  So much for presenting correct facts.

Two references for the above info:

--  PDF document:  www.afcintl.com/pdfs/applications/combustibles.pdf

-- http://www.usealtfuels.com/?page_id=12

 

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Keep in mind a persons personal experiences can affect their views on any given subject. I drove a propane delivery truck for short while in the 70's.  Second saturday on the job I made delivery to a rural home. Headed to the next stop and was just coming into the edge of Terrell, Tx. when the truck started losing power and by the time I got it to the side of the road there was smoke coming out of the cracks  around the hood. By the time I got to the front with the 20lb fire extingwhisher (can't spell it) there were flames coming up. Truck burned but didn't blow.  I know about safeties and such but they can fail. Now days I don't panic or obsess but I do keep it in mind and try to do good maint. practices and checkx and I don't recommend that anyone run with their stuff on. I do it at times but I won't recommend it.

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16 hours ago, jcussen said:

Have you won cases because someone had a propane heater on when travelling  and it blew up the propane tanks when moving?

jc, you sure ask good questions I thoroughly enjoy THANKS. And THANKS TO AL AND ALL for the links regarding driving with LP Gas on and the possible ramifications, plenty of "opinions" out there BOTH lay and professional (Like I said NOT my words take it up with the authors if you disagree with any of the links, there are hundreds out there, some maybe right some maybe wrong)   MAKE "YOUR" OWN PICKS AND CHOOSE "YOUR" OWN RISKS  you MAY or MAY NOT be betting your life on them !!!!!!!!!!  I'm so glad to live in a country where we have freedom of choice !!!!!!!!!!!! 

jc, NO I've never won a case that involved         "a propane heater being on when travelling and it blew up the propane tanks when moving"            THANK GOD ALSO.   I, however, as either an attorney or 47 year RV user and dealer heard of RV accidents and fires and know if such ever happened to me I prefer and choose confident its just safer the LP Gas be OFF at the tanks,  VERSUS ON WITH LIVE GAS LINES AND OPEN FLAMES IN A FURNACE OR FRIDGE ETC IN CASE OF AN ACCIDENT    WELL DUH THATS  A NO BRAINER LOL      even IF there are safety features ??? and IF they work ???       As I noted above, a persons CHOICES are NOT a thing to argue over, no right or wrong answers, THOSE ARE HIS OWN DECISIONS he may be right ORRRRRR  he may be wrong ???  I made my choice and others have done likewise NO PROBLEM OR ARGUING ABOUT THAT !! 

Great and very informative fun discussion with lots of good info cited, plenty of lay and/or professional "opinions"  all of which make good reading so we can make more informed decisions. To each their own choices regarding safety, hard to fault a person for doing that. I'm happy for and support those who choose to leave LP Gas ON with open flame fridges or furnaces operating when driving where crashes can and do happen,,,,,,,,,, and likewise support those who choose to turn it OFF when driving.

THANKS FOR ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED TO SUCH AN EDUCATIONAL DISCUSSION. I sure learned from it and hope others have also, what a great Forum and service to us all..........................

Its a bit early, but still let me wish everyone a Happy and Blessed CHRISTmas.

John T

Edited by oldjohnt

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FWIW, an LP tank that  contains product will not blow up, the mixture inside is too rich to support ignition. It can release vapors due to an outside heating source, (overpressure release valve), then the vapors are released and boiling liquid releases more vapor, but the tank/cylinder will not "blow-up". Sure you will read a reporters story about "blowing-up" but you'll never read such a statement from a firefighter or other fire expert.

This reminds me of the tales about oxygen being flammable and causing fires. NOT TRUE!  Oxygen will support and increase a fire, but will not ignite when nothing else is present.

Edited by Ray,IN

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I always had to drill into my students heads that ONLY vapors "burn", not solids or liquids.    An almost empty container of any flammable liquid is far more dangerous than a 'full' container.  You can drop a lighted match into a pail of gasoline and the match will go out.  Hold the match above the liquid and ignition will occur.   Good activity to develop observation skills in kids is to have them watch a candle burn and lead them to see that the solid melts, the liquid  moves up the wick and the flame is actually just above the wick where the vapor burns.

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It's interesting how concerned we get about driving around with propane lines pressurized at about 0.4 PSI, yet we all blissfully drive around with engine fuel lines pressurized at 40+ PSI. :)

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7 hours ago, Barbaraok said:

I always had to drill into my students heads that ONLY vapors "burn", not solids or liquids.    An almost empty container of any flammable liquid is far more dangerous than a 'full' container.  You can drop a lighted match into a pail of gasoline and the match will go out.  Hold the match above the liquid and ignition will occur.   Good activity to develop observation skills in kids is to have them watch a candle burn and lead them to see that the solid melts, the liquid  moves up the wick and the flame is actually just above the wick where the vapor burns.

As a teenager of about 15 years old, I took a small can about the size of the typical canned vegetable  or soup can, filled it about 1/4 full of gasoline.  I was simply amazed when I dropped a lighted match from about 10 inches above the can and it went straight down into the can and fizzled out, just like I had dropped the match into a can of water.  I even tried to light it a 2nd and third time.   Most likely if I had dropped the match down beside the can, the gas would have ignited.

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2 minutes ago, Dutch_12078 said:

It's interesting how concerned we get about driving around with propane lines pressurized at about 0.4 PSI, yet we all blissfully drive around with engine fuel lines pressurized at 40+ PSI. :)

My thoughts exactly!!

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43 minutes ago, Dutch_12078 said:

It's interesting how concerned we get about driving around with propane lines pressurized at about 0.4 PSI, yet we all blissfully drive around with engine fuel lines pressurized at 40+ PSI. :)

Dutch, I agree, back in the oldddddddddddd days using carburetors we didn't run as much fuel pressure as in todays in tank electric fuel pumps and fuel injection.

Nice chatting with yall, again a fun discussion

John T

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Yeh, yeh, yeh, I know all that but you just drive one that is burning and see if you aren't occaisionally nervous sometimes.:lol: Dutch, great thanks for reminding me about the gasoline.:angry::) and then there is Al who provides actual proof I wasn't once the only stupid teenager.

I believe that a long time ago there was a LP transport that rolled over on I40 ramp to I240 in Memphis and as I seem so remember the tank did not blow but sailed / rocketed a great distance and landed on a large home which was distroyed. I gotta try and look this up.  I know I came through that ramp about 2 week later and saw the evidence of it.

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7 hours ago, bigjim said:

I wasn't once the only stupid teenager.

Yo Big Jim. NOPE you weren't the only one lol BTDT and got the T Shirt  Ahhhh the Indiscretions of Youth..........Hopefully were a bit older n wiser now. I'm fer darn sure more careful and safety minded nowadays and don't take the risks I did as a teenager.

 

John T   live from Jetty Park on the beach in Matagorda Texas for some overnight free boondocking.  

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Hey if anyone is interested, I google the LP truck rollover in Memphis Tn in Dec 1988 and it was some read. The tank punctured and the tank ended up on/in a large old house about 125 yards away and more houses were damaged. Depending on the account you read 8 to 10 people died.  I am more amazed after reading it.  As I said earlier I came though the same turn about 2 weeks later and saw the evidence for sure but nothing like it must have been when it happened. If interested you should look it up.

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Big Jim, THAT SOUNDS SCARY...........Thanks for the post.................Rolling down the road at 60 MPH with a tank full of gasoline plus an LP gas tank ("possibly" moreso or "possibly" not, take your pic, if ON and flame appliances are operating) can be hazardous in the event of a serious crash or accident, especially if a fire erupts   YIKES !!!   The later RV's I've owned with an electric fuel pump had a safety crash tumbler switch which turned off power to the pump under a hard shock.  But hey it's the lifestyle I choose, I just take all reasonable preventive safety measures and precautions and pray each day and trust in the Lord...........

 

Take care, be safe n God Bless

John T    Live from Jetty Park free dry beach camping south of Matagorda, Texas

Edited by oldjohnt

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