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noteven

What would proper wifi cost a park?

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What would installing and maintaining a proper wifi service cost a rv park? 

Lets say the park had 100 spaces, is in a year round location, and a 80% occupancy rate. 

And everyone streams HD video 24hrs a day....

How much $ per space per day?

 

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Highly location dependent.  None of the RV parks I stay in during the year even have a reasonable option for that level of service.

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One place I was at last year said they were charged something like $80 per site per month and they could not support streaming video. It would be nice, but cost prohibitive to have that sort of speed.

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Who can get that even in service Stick built home??? Maybe 10% of the counties or maybe somewhere in 40 states

Clay

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Some parks do allow long term guests to arrange for individual residential level Internet/TV services direct with the local cable service, etc., but that would be difficult and expensive to do for every site in a park on an ongoing basis.

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31 minutes ago, ms60ocb said:

Who can get that even in service Stick built home??? Maybe 10% of the counties or maybe somewhere in 40 states

Clay

According to the statistics site, "Statista", about 85% of US households have access to broadband Internet as of 2016. I suspect they're using the old 4Mbps/1Mbps minimum speeds FCC definition of "broadband" rather than the newer 25Mbps/3Mbps minimum speeds definition adopted in 2015, but either one is capable of streaming video at some level.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183614/us-households-with-broadband-internet-access-since-2009/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183635/number-of-households-in-the-us/

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Ok so it appears "it can't be done." 

Why do so many perfessional rv'rs squawk and complain about it constantly in their campground reviews on the webernet forums ? :lol:

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Probably because the amenity of "FREE WI-FI" is in bold print and 48 size font but the "but if you dare to stream we will kick you out"  is a 5 pica font footnote on the last page of the contract. 

Similar to an ad that would say "FREE FOOD AS LONG AS WE ARE OPEN"  and the small print saying "we are open every day from 12:07 to 12:09 am."

For parks to offer wifi worth its weight in CAT5 they would need fiber feeding a switch with that bandwidth divided into subnets with 24 or less IPs per subnet. That would add a requirement of more wireless access points as well, and probably double the cost of a night's rent. Doubling the cost would likely see their traffic diminish to where there are so few guests that they don't need the bandwidth. Fiber is not available everywhere, particularly in these small towns that haven't been discovered yet where the snowbird type long term renters go. My city in Ohio is 200,000 people and we are just now getting fiber made available to homes. Fiber does feed the switches for neighborhoods, but it is still copper cable to the houses. Even at that I have 100mb down and 10mb up.

Still a lack of general knowledge out there anyway and a lot of things said that aren't true. Like people who think having an antenna and a repeater can "create" wifi where none exists. Same for cell data boosters. They may boost your usable signal by 5-6 db once the signal is inside your coach, but that 5-6 db is inside your coach. If the signal quality at the tower is crappy you will just have stronger signal to a crappy tower. All that changes is what happens between your antenna and your computers. But hey, whatever.

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So let me add some reality to the discussion.

First, you would need considerable backhaul capability. Fiber really would be the only viable solution. But it "could" technically be done without fiber. 

Then you need enough APs to cover the space, and a sophisticated software capability to properly regulate and manage that capacity.  And maintain it. 

Been there, done all that....and it is not as easy as all the "Internet experts" make it out to be. At least not a reliable system. For example, with 100 mbps backhaul, the best modern equipment, and an unregulated/unrestricted network, you will not sustain streaming very long (for those 100 sites). We did not restrict streaming in a campground I manage the network in last summer until it "fell apart", which was in June - we open in May. After that, no more unregulated streaming. 500 mbps would not have supported the load. CAN it be done? Yes, but it is expensive in equipment and manpower. 

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In theory, an RV park could be wired similar to a housing development or apartment, with drops and individual modems for each site. The costs to install and maintain such a network would likely be pretty prohibitive though, as would the monthly subscription fees.

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We are working at a commercial park now, and  Wi-Fi is only one of the major headaches the owner has.  No matter how much he is able to provide, it is never enough.  Gosh, I would love to stream football games, movies, etc. but I can't pull it all out of my hot spot without it costing a BUNCH.  But if there is excellent internet at an RV Park, they (Us) will suck out all we can.  "We have found the problem and it is US."

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4 hours ago, Mike and Claudia said:

  But if there is excellent internet at an RV Park, they (Us) will suck out all we can.  "We have found the problem and it is US."

 

Very profound statement.......LOL

.

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I have stayed in parks that allowed either cable or DSL in the past. Not many, but some. Ok, maybe as I think about it. ONE. 

 

Rod

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We are at Gulf State Park in Alabama.  I can get a satisfactory signal without any "boosters or antennas" on my rig.  I use the WIFI for emails, web surfing & FB.  My neighbor tried his ROKU without success.  I've been led to understand that their are people out there that can get WIFI signals out of thin air, so to speak.  I've also been told that these WIFI "hogs" are the reason some of us can't get a decent signal.  Don't know if that's true.

Most parks advise of questionable WIFI & like most of us can relate, the more units in the park the less signal quality on the WIFI.

Gulf State Park has a sign that reads something like-"We try to provide a WIFI signal throughout the park & while it should provide a reasonable signal, it will not allow for streaming & gaming.  We have looked into updating our system & initial estimates are in the $400,000.00 range."  It ain't gonna happen.

Todd

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The key is backhaul. If you have enough fiber backhaul available, and can run fiber to EVERY AP (access point) then the technology available today will allow for those 100 sites (in the OPs original question) to have enough speed for streaming. With the proper equipment and backhaul it can be done. Likely only in a NEW park, since the retrofit costs would be pretty high. 

Once it is in, you have to keep it running. So you basically have to have someone on-site that is a network engineer. Or close. Can a sophisticated owner do it themselves. Maybe 1% could. And that assumes they have an IT background to start with. So now, you start to see the "problem". 

It is not simple to start with, and then you have to keep it going. And you have to be prepared to replace equipment, so you need hot standbys (assuming you want good service). If you have five access points, figure one failure per year. At least. Oh, and you also need security hardware and software on your system....because with 100 users you WILL have network virus's. Guaranteed. Now you need someone that understands commercial routers (not home routers), and how to set up security hardware, and configure it properly. Plus design the network topology to be efficient and secure.  Oh.....we are just getting STARTED....this is not your "mothers" network....nothing like a residential router/modem that your phone company gives you. Are you going to put managed switches in, or unmanaged? Are you integrating the network security functions into the router, or do you have standalone security hardware? How are you providing power to your access points....better get that electrician in to wire it....perhaps with a long underground run - in conduit of course. And what about the towers your APs sit on? And how do you get the APs on those towers?  Got a lift truck? And what happens when they die...call that lift truck back....Do you know how to crimp and build your own cat5/6 cables...because you are going to have to do that. Know about how to order, string and configure fiber. Because THAT is a specialized skill. And you won't do it without fiber. 

This just scratched the surface of what is required. And people wonder why it costs so much.....  "Gee, I set up a network at home.....it is easy".   Yeah. :)

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22 hours ago, Dutch_12078 said:

According to the statistics site, "Statista", about 85% of US households have access to broadband Internet as of 2016. I suspect they're using the old 4Mbps/1Mbps minimum speeds FCC definition of "broadband" rather than the newer 25Mbps/3Mbps minimum speeds definition adopted in 2015, but either one is capable of streaming video at some level.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183614/us-households-with-broadband-internet-access-since-2009/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183635/number-of-households-in-the-us/

My previous statement was not the access to broadband internet and actually streaming HD video 24hrs a day....

8 hours ago, Mike and Claudia said:

  But if there is excellent internet at an RV Park, they (Us) will suck out all we can.  "We have found the problem and it is US."

I use to have satellite internet service up until about 4 years ago, At that time on Sunday afternoon/evening Dial-up was faster. Today is no different as the 1's & 0's come faster more people grab them. On campgrounds/RV resorts, I have heard that in AZ, one company only tries to only to allow streaming speeds at a Community Building

 Clay  The problem is US and the problem is leaving here fine.

 

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17 hours ago, Jack Mayer said:

First, you would need considerable backhaul capability. Fiber really would be the only viable solution. But it "could" technically be done without fiber. 

Then you need enough APs to cover the space, and a sophisticated software capability to properly regulate and manage that capacity.  And maintain it. 

 

Jack:

IMO the good news is that these changes are beginning to occur at some parks.  This week I was at the ARVC Expo in Raleigh (campground owners association) and a friend of mine who owns a ~100 site, rural CG in western SD was telling me about the fiber upgrade he is in the process of implementing. He's located in an area with very poor Verizon and AT&T service so having a good internet connection is essential for his customers.  He already is using sophisticated network management software for the ~50Mbps connection he currently has and plans to extend it to his new gigabit fiber when the installation is completed.  He's also rewired the park with fiber and has installed new AP's in preparation.  He fully expects to be able to offer high quality streaming to all customers.

I realize that he's lucky to have the ability to do this upgrade, but the very fact that it's available in rural SD is an illustration of the fact that, over-time, more and more parks will be able to avail themselves of this sort of thing and this will change the dynamic of the wifi discussion dramatically.  

Joel

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On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:34 AM, noteven said:

What would installing and maintaining a proper wifi service cost a rv park? 

Lets say the park had 100 spaces, is in a year round location, and a 80% occupancy rate. 

And everyone streams HD video 24hrs a day....

How much $ per space per day?

 

 

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:56 AM, chirakawa said:

Highly location dependent.  None of the RV parks I stay in during the year even have a reasonable option for that level of service.

Immediately the Quartzite area came to mind.

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The WiFi committee here at our CO-OP Park posted last February at the annual meeting that our system cost $4.85 per month per lot, we have 130 lots.  This system is enough to do some web browsing, e-mail BUT NOT STREEMING.  "In the winter months we average 250 authorized devices and 1000GB per month of data" they are constantly tweaking and upgrading equipment.  They use 3 - T1 lines as no fiber optic is available.

Don't ask me any more questions, as I am quoting from a report and I don't know what I just said.  Just some numbers.

Edited by jeanhoyle

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7 hours ago, Jack Mayer said:

"Gee, I set up a network at home.....it is easy".   Yeah. :)

Yeah. THAT is easy! Plugging in a wireless router and logging your peer to peer networking computers to the router... easy peasy.

Now let's add  a multiplexer, some DSUs (data service units) that break those BIG data connections into small ones to feed each access point.... You also need a small room to make your networking closet. Then start trenching to bury the cable runs to those access points all over your yard. IF the fiber is available in Cow's Butt Texas or Hog's Hoof Arkansas to handle the traffic you are asking your network to move. There will be authentication servers, best to run a domain server, may as well provide front end virus protection, so also a proxy server.... it's not at all like your $29.99 wireless router from Walmart.

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On 11/10/2017 at 7:00 AM, Mntom said:

One place I was at last year said they were charged something like $80 per site per month and they could not support streaming video. It would be nice, but cost prohibitive to have that sort of speed.

Yowza--I don't think that I want to own that park, or even STAY there.  When I started Full Timing in 2004, I vowed that I wouldn't stay anywhere over $ 15.00/night.

Talk about eating your HAT.  This is precisely why we Volunteer.  (Plus it gives my DW someone else to talk to! :lol: )

Don't worry guys.  She doesn't read the forums.  (I don't think--??)

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Well here goes. as an IT guy, i see some variation of this problem on a daily basis. i live on an island with a few CG's. i have many clients in all of them. Bandwidth is the problem. just about everybody has a cell phone. very few have unlimited data. so they connect to the wifi. a lot have smart tv's. along with pc/laptops, Next you add into ppl that live near those parks connecting to those wifi's. With the major surge of netflix, hulu an others more/more ppl are sucking up the bandwidth.  What most have done is got there own personal isp. Some of the snowbirds have gotten there hotspot box's.  The main problem will probably never go away. So in a nutshell its just one of those expenses to add when you start FT . /  Traveling . Just like buying fuel. there is no way to get around it. 

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9 hours ago, RV Vagabond Jerry said:

 I think "full hookups" should include an ethernet port next to the 50 amp outlet.

I can't recall ever having seen that in an RV park and so far I have never seen an RV that was wired to connect to one if offered? I suppose an RV owner could run the cable in through their window if they had an ethernet cable long enough to reach.....

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9 hours ago, RV Vagabond Jerry said:

Wifi sucks.   I think "full hookups" should include an ethernet port next to the 50 amp outlet.

I guess you do understand networking.  An ethernet can be 10 MBits/s connection and WiFi can be over 300 MBits/s.

The speed of the connection to the router, the central point of connection to the outside world, is not the significant factor.  The constraining issue is the volume of traffic for all the connections to the router being funneled out to the world, the backhaul. 

Just by the typical location of campgrounds, backhauls are limited.  You just don't have fiber connection everywhere.  So parks are limited to a single DSL connection that is shared by everyone.

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